The All-Purpose "What-If " Thread

[Doctor.]

Not just "any Saiyan" could become a SSJG, the rules of SSJG states that only pure hearted Saiyans can activate it as well as the fact that the power of the original SSJG may not be as strong as Goku. For all we know the power of the Saiyans who aid in its activation may further increase it's power, the rules don't state that each SSJG are exactly nor similarly as powerful as one another.

Yes, just about any Saiyan could become a SSG. Any Saiyan could turn good, if Vegeta did, then it's possible for everyone else. Any Saiyan could become as strong as Goku got, because if Goku got as strong being trash, then the elite and medium classes could get even stronger if they had access to his training methods. And pure-hearted does not necessarily mean "pure good", as Toriyama has stated pure-hearted for Goku means having "a pure sincerity about wanting to become stronger", I assume that's what means for Vegeta as well, and pure-hearted in the sense of "pure good" only applies to Gohan, Goten and Trunks, I reckon. There's also the fact that if they picked Vegeta or Gohan instead of Goku, then the SSG who'd face Beerus would be just as strong if not more powerful.

[Alex9196]

Not just "any Saiyan" could become a SSJG, the rules of SSJG states that only pure hearted Saiyans can activate it as well as the fact that the power of the original SSJG may not be as strong as Goku. For all we know the power of the Saiyans who aid in its activation may further increase it's power, the rules don't state that each SSJG are exactly nor similarly as powerful as one another.

Yes, just about any Saiyan could become a SSG. Any Saiyan could turn good, if Vegeta did, then it's possible for everyone else. Any Saiyan could become as strong as Goku got, because if Goku got as strong being trash, then the elite and medium classes could get even stronger if they had access to his training methods. And pure-hearted does not necessarily mean "pure good", as Toriyama has stated pure-hearted for Goku means having "a pure sincerity about wanting to become stronger", I assume that's what means for Vegeta as well, and pure-hearted in the sense of "pure good" only applies to Gohan, Goten and Trunks, I reckon. There's also the fact that if they picked Vegeta or Gohan instead of Goku, then the SSG who'd face Beerus would be just as strong if not more powerful.

in db it was explained to ride kinto un you have to be pure of heart, and at least in the german dub which i watched it was said that pure of heart means to have no alterior motives. thats why roshi, bulma and krillin couldnt ride kinto un. and most people would consider master roshi a good person for example.

[Doctor.]

In the manga, that I recall, it just said pure-hearted, it never specified its meaning. That's why Toriyama said that Goku is pure because of his "pure sincerity to become stronger".

[Alex9196]

but for example in bog vegeta was pure hearted in terms of being able to help with the ritual. but do you think he could ride kinto un now?

[Doctor.]

Probably. I assume that both Goku and Vegeta's purity originate in the same feeling of "wanting to become stronger" that Toriyama talked about.

[Alex9196]

but in db krillin wanted to get stronger to and still couldnt ride it. and i am pretty sure thats in the manga right, but krillin did it to impress girls. so thats probably it.

[theherodjl]

Not just "any Saiyan" could become a SSJG, the rules of SSJG states that only pure hearted Saiyans can activate it as well as the fact that the power of the original SSJG may not be as strong as Goku. For all we know the power of the Saiyans who aid in its activation may further increase it's power, the rules don't state that each SSJG are exactly nor similarly as powerful as one another.

Yes, just about any Saiyan could become a SSG. Any Saiyan could turn good, if Vegeta did, then it's possible for everyone else. Any Saiyan could become as strong as Goku got, because if Goku got as strong being trash, then the elite and medium classes could get even stronger if they had access to his training methods. And pure-hearted does not necessarily mean "pure good", as Toriyama has stated pure-hearted for Goku means having "a pure sincerity about wanting to become stronger", I assume that's what means for Vegeta as well, and pure-hearted in the sense of "pure good" only applies to Gohan, Goten and Trunks, I reckon. There's also the fact that if they picked Vegeta or Gohan instead of Goku, then the SSG who'd face Beerus would be just as strong if not more powerful.

No they can't, Vegeta's revelation that Freeza turned him into the monster as well as the fact that he was living up to his prideful position as Prince of evil Saiyans says he wasn't born evil but just became influenced by this environment while most other Saiyans are just naturally heartless and sadistic much like Freeza. Besides, the fact that a SSJG was born again proves that only 6 Saiyans would definitively be born good hence Vegeta.
Not just any Saiyan could become as strong as Goku too, Ginyu does mention a tidbit that the reason why certain fighters become so powerful is that they are mutants however almost all Saiyans remained below a PL of 18,000 all their lives despite any Zenkais or massive planetary battles they were in.
Pure hearted DOES mean pure good hence the synonymous wording, things like the Kinto-un and Krillin who is pure hearted not being able to ride is because the cloud will not let anyone with impure thoughts onto it but mere moments of vanity or egotistical motives do not subtract from a character's goodness. Even Saichoro states that Krillin is pure later on when he unlocks his potential.
Once more, potential. Goku has the most out of all of them hence Beerus' statement that he would become a great opponent one day and Whis asking him to be the next Hakaishin as well as the reason they chose him to be SSJG, it's Toriyama who pretty much stated that Goku is #1 even if someone momentarily surpasses him.

[h0kuten]

Beerus actually called Goku's & Vegeta's potential limitless and was otherwise unimpressed with Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks. This in itself should infer huge increases.

At the start of both Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super Goku is still training on King Kai's planet. Goku & Vegeta are most definitely a lot stronger than they were in the Majin Buu Saga.

[Berserker1921]

Beerus actually called Goku's & Vegeta's potential limitless and was otherwise unimpressed with Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks. This in itself should infer huge increases.

At the start of both Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super Goku is still training on King Kai's planet. Goku & Vegeta are most definitely a lot stronger than they were in the Majin Buu Saga.

I assume on a scale of 0-15. At this stage. I say 15 since we know whis is the strongest warrior that we know of. And beerus is a 10.

Super(bog saga)
Goku-1
Vegeta-.5-.65
Gohan-.8-.9 (only cause he stopped training)
Gotenks-.7-.8

Goku and Vegeta don't have those secret potentials or are prodigies like their kids. But it doesn't mean they can't achieve levels that their kids will never get too. Mostly due to the reason that both Goku and Vegeta love training and seeking to become better fighters. While Gohan, trunks, and goten. Really don't care for training. Goten and trunks have relatively nice life's. Why would you want to train when you can go to amusement parks and etc. Remember their still kids. And Gohan realizes that his dad is alive and knows he'll deal with any threat that comes their way. So he can focus on his marriage and career. Unlike young Gohan and future trunks who were born and raised in harsher environments. They had to grow up and train to become stronger to face these threats. However now Gohan has Goku and Vegeta. Trunk has no threats to worry about. Since prob Babidi never had the energy to resserect Buu and trunks prob killed dabura. And no more dragonballs so no frieza. So he doesn't have to worry. He can retire and have a family.

[Doctor.]

No they can't, Vegeta's revelation that Freeza turned him into the monster as well as the fact that he was living up to his prideful position as Prince of evil Saiyans says he wasn't born evil but just became influenced by this environment while most other Saiyans are just naturally heartless and sadistic much like Freeza. Besides, the fact that a SSJG was born again proves that only 6 Saiyans would definitively be born good hence Vegeta.

Oh, you're totally misunderstading Vegeta's character. Vegeta would still be evil, after Freeza died he continued to be evil and a prick, he just didn't like being Freeza's puppet, that's what Goku says right after Vegeta meets his end at Freeza's hands. Vegeta didn't want to wish back Raditz unlike Nappa, and didn't have a problem disposing of Nappa at all. He also repeats multiple times throughout the Namek arc that he doesn't care about his planet or father. He always was evil, he's not some tragic figure that was good but was turned evil due to the circumstances he lived in.

Not just any Saiyan could become as strong as Goku too, Ginyu does mention a tidbit that the reason why certain fighters become so powerful is that they are mutants however almost all Saiyans remained below a PL of 18,000 all their lives despite any Zenkais or massive planetary battles they were in.

That's why I said they'd become as strong as Goku if they had access to the same training methods. Goku is trash compared to anyone else in his race. Most other Saiyans would get as strong, if not stronger, than Goku if you put them in Goku's spot throughout his entire life.

Pure hearted DOES mean pure good hence the synonymous wording, things like the Kinto-un and Krillin who is pure hearted not being able to ride is because the cloud will not let anyone with impure thoughts onto it but mere moments of vanity or egotistical motives do not subtract from a character's goodness. Even Saichoro states that Krillin is pure later on when he unlocks his potential.

Yes, I'm not saying it doesn't mean pure good, I'm saying it doesn't mean pure good for Goku specifically, it means "having a pure sincerity about wanting to become stronger" and "doing good things a result but giving off the impression that he may not be a good guy at all". This is what Toriyama has said, not my words.

Once more, potential. Goku has the most out of all of them hence Beerus' statement that he would become a great opponent one day and Whis asking him to be the next Hakaishin as well as the reason they chose him to be SSJG, it's Toriyama who pretty much stated that Goku is #1 even if someone momentarily surpasses him.

Goku has great potential because he absorbed the SSG power. Any Saiyan prior to that had more potential than him, and any half-breed would have hundreds of times even more. That's the point of the entire series: that Goku who was thought to be trash could overcome anything and anyone with sheer willpower alone.

[h0kuten]

The kids having hundreds of times more potential? That's just sheer fan speculation without anything to back it up. The kids & Gohan had the most potential at once time. The kids were only involved with the ending portion of Dragonball Z, Gohan had a few random moments here and there and only proved to be useful twice, both times of which he mucked up the scenarion. So no, it isn't the point of the entire series. The point of the entire series is following Goku on his adventures.

As said above, they had the most potential at one point, not now. Beerus is impressed with Goku before the SSJG and is impressed with Vegeta before he becomes enraged.

He is never impressed with Gohan or Gotenks. My previous argument still holds.

[Doctor.]

You're dodging the issue just because you can't stand that the kids may be above Goku in something. I didn't even say the kids were stronger. I said they had hundreds times more potential, which is true because Goku's potential prior to the God power-up was basically close to zero, and he got as strong as he got due to sheer willpower and effort while the kids got as strong as they got due to easy power-ups, that's the point. The entire point of part 2 of Dragon Ball is that one can achieve great heights if he works hard enough, which is what Goku personifies through his battle with Vegeta and his battle with every villain in the series. Strength comparisons or whatever were not the point nor were they relevant to the point I was making.

[h0kuten]

To say the kids have hundreds of times more potential is baseless and fan speculation. Please bring a Toriyama interview where he says the kids have such a high degree of potential. Again, the kids & Gohan had more potential at one point, but feats blatantly show Veget Ssj2 even being stronger than them, which also infers a potential increase.

[Doctor.]

Why does Vegeta matter? Vegeta also has more potential than Goku and he always had. Hundreds of times is obviously an hyperbole meaning "a whole lot more", which is undeniable. Prior to the God power-up (by the way, you can't say the kids wouldn't have more potential than Goku if they had SSG too), Goku was the one with the least amount of potential out of ALL the Saiyans alive.

[h0kuten]

Because he's equal to Goku on the same levels so is ultimately 4x weaker. If Vegeta performed the best feats among the Z Warriors, that automatically makes Goku in the ballpark of 4x Ultimate Gohan.

Again, this infers a potential increase as well as strength.

[Doctor.]

Again, I'm not talking about strength. I'm talking about potential. Goku has always, throughout the manga, been the Saiyan with the least amount of potential, this is undeniable. I don't care about how strong Vegeta or Goku is compared to Gohan, that wasn't the point, please.

[h0kuten]

Gohan & the kids had the highest potential at one time. Not anymore.

[Doctor.]

Because of the God power-up, yes, I said that plenty of times. That still wasn't the point, the point is that he never had any potential before the God power-up, and constantly hit and surpassed limits thanks to training (that was almost entirely exclusive to him) and sheer willpower. You had no need to go into some discussion about how Goku is stronger than Gohan.

[h0kuten]

Goku impressed Beerus before the SSJG transformation. Vegeta impressed Beerus before becoming enraged.

Beerus later says Vegeta may also become a fierce adversary. This is before Vegeta became a god, so it's a potential reference.

The point of my post is that potential is a forever changing concept and it's quite clear Dragonball Super & BoG all imply or directly state Goku as the strongest prior to the SSJG transformation.

[Doctor.]

Goku impressed Beerus with his power, which you can interpret it as him being superior to Gohan or not since he didn't make any remark about Gohan's power but I don't care since it's not related to the point. Beerus was only impressed by Goku's potential to grow right after he absorbed the SSG power.

And Vegeta is irrelevant because his potential has always been higher than Goku's, and BoG only reflected that once more.