Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Doctor.]

He didn't say Super's writing as a whole was poor. He said that the way Super tackled this particular subject was.

[h0kuten]

People like to spit all over Goku taking 7 years to achieve a known Super Saiyan form (Ssj2) and unlock a never before heard of Super Saiyan transformation (Ssj3). Since Ssj3 was still completely new to Goku in The Majin Buu Saga, it's quite obvious Goku spent most of his time unlocking these 2 new Ssj transformations as opposed to trying to get stronger.

That argument should debunk people who try to argue that Goku only got a little stronger over 7 years and couldn't get stronger by normal training after the Buu Saga.

In Dragonball Super, Goku has King Kai create enormously heavy objects, objects so heavy under 10x gravity that he has a hard time lifting them. People who said Goku couldn't get any stronger are debunked by this as well. Goku has access to special training equipment kudos of King Kai.

In my opinion, Dragonball Super shows us new training regimes that fans didn't think of and show quite well.

[singsing]

People like to spit all over Goku taking 7 years to achieve a known Super Saiyan form (Ssj2) and unlock a never before heard of Super Saiyan transformation (Ssj3). Since Ssj3 was still completely new to Goku in The Majin Buu Saga, it's quite obvious Goku spent most of his time unlocking these 2 new Ssj transformations as opposed to trying to get stronger.

That argument should debunk people who try to argue that Goku only got a little stronger over 7 years and couldn't get stronger by normal training after the Buu Saga.

In Dragonball Super, Goku has King Kai create enormously heavy objects, objects so heavy under 10x gravity that he has a hard time lifting them. People who said Goku couldn't get any stronger are debunked by this as well. Goku has access to special training equipment kudos of King Kai.

In my opinion, Dragonball Super shows us new training regimes that fans didn't think of and show quite well.

Why do you assume Goku even knew SSJ3 existed? How do you know he didn't just train really, really hard and manage to unlock SSJ3 accidentally? Your argument isn't a debunk, it's just one huge assumption.

[h0kuten]

People like to spit all over Goku taking 7 years to achieve a known Super Saiyan form (Ssj2) and unlock a never before heard of Super Saiyan transformation (Ssj3). Since Ssj3 was still completely new to Goku in The Majin Buu Saga, it's quite obvious Goku spent most of his time unlocking these 2 new Ssj transformations as opposed to trying to get stronger.

That argument should debunk people who try to argue that Goku only got a little stronger over 7 years and couldn't get stronger by normal training after the Buu Saga.

In Dragonball Super, Goku has King Kai create enormously heavy objects, objects so heavy under 10x gravity that he has a hard time lifting them. People who said Goku couldn't get any stronger are debunked by this as well. Goku has access to special training equipment kudos of King Kai.

In my opinion, Dragonball Super shows us new training regimes that fans didn't think of and show quite well.

Why do you assume Goku even knew SSJ3 existed? How do you know he didn't just train really, really hard and manage to unlock SSJ3 accidentally? Your argument isn't a debunk, it's just one huge assumption.

It's validated by Goku's inability to really control Ssj3, my theory has some grounds to it.

Also, it's sort of like the Androids Saga where Vegeta & Goku 'felt' there was a level beyond Super Saiyan and trained to unlock it. It would work the same here.

[Rocketman]

It's fucking boring.

It's fucking boring to have nothing but "Goku vs" over and over and fucking over again. After GT and bogfaff, I'll take any excuse to knock him off the screen, even if just for a little while.

[h0kuten]

It's fucking boring.

It's fucking boring to have nothing but "Goku vs" over and over and fucking over again. After GT and bogfaff, I'll take any excuse to knock him off the screen, even if just for a little while.

Too bad m8, Goku won't be going anywhere and Super will likely revolve around Goku & Vegeta.

[supercat]

While I certainly wouldn't mind someone else getting the spotlight for a change, there's really nothing wrong with Goku maintaining his status as long as some of the others (Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, etc.) get some attention.

On the contrary, it would be quite nice for the team to get in some action while their top player steps out for a bit.

[Faustus]

Vegeta for one has been getting his due in attention to be sure.

In any event, I doubt Toriyama will suddenly lose his habit of slapping broken bones or heart disease on Goku to get him out of commission for a bit; in fact, at this point I can't help but read BoG and F as recycled Saiyan arc plots (or really any other plot in the manga where Goku is off training somewhere else while the rest of the rang fight/distract the latest whatever till he gets there). It should come off better in a long-running series, when we go episodes at a stretch without him.

[dbgtFO]

As far as the original topic is concerned, the fact that Gohan and Gotenks' power weren't acknowledged at all, when they get defeated in Battle of Gods is bit inconsistent with how these kind of things are usually handled.
Usually, when a powerful character gets defeated, a supporting character is there to offer exposition on how this just makes the new strong character seem invincible.
Even Gohan, when Piccolo was watching the stronger Vegeta fight Majin Buu, got a comment to that extent.
Though I think I do recall Vegeta stating, that even Gotenks couldn't hope to match Beerus, that just makes it silly, that Gohan didn't get one.

Toriyama by hiw own word likes to be particular about the characters' dialouge, so we'll see how it's handled in the tv series.

[h0kuten]

Vegeta didn't say even Gotenks couldn't hope he said. Gotenks you have no hope. It's not like Vegeta is trying to hold Gotenks highly or anything.

Although it's useless to talk to some people about Battle of Gods figures. They figure out anyway to bring Goku & Vegeta down and power up Gohan or Gotenks.

[dbgtFO]

Vegeta didn't say even Gotenks couldn't hope he said. Gotenks you have no hope. It's not like Vegeta is trying to hold Gotenks highly or anything.

Okay, I didn't remember the exact wording of that scene.

[Hitiro]

Vegeta didn't say even Gotenks couldn't hope he said. Gotenks you have no hope. It's not like Vegeta is trying to hold Gotenks highly or anything.

Although it's useless to talk to some people about Battle of Gods figures. They figure out anyway to bring Goku & Vegeta down and power up Gohan or Gotenks.

It took Goku and Vegeta 7 years to catch up to Gohan after the Cell Games. Even with them attaining SSJ2 and having trained for 7 years it was still fairly close. There is no reason not to believe that Goku and Vegeta would find it hard to catch up to Gotenks and Gohan in just 4 years given a similar power gap as the Cell Games. Somebody said in this thread that Goku said he had reached his limits and couldn't get much stronger after the first trip to the RoSaT. I don't think that is quite accurate. What Goku was saying was he had reached the limits of what that training could provide him and any more than that would just be torture instead of training. At this point in the manga I feel Goku and Vegeta had maxed out the limitations of the training they got through all the training methods they used up to this point. This is why it took them 7 years to catch up to Gohan. Their gains had become very small. The only effective way for them to get stronger now is to fight against a stronger opponent as per what Akira Toriyama stated about Goku fighting against Beerus.

So it isn't like Goku can Vegeta couldn't catch up to Gohan and Gotenks by the time of Battle of Gods. They just lack an effective training method to do it in that amount of time. Given 7+ years of their current training regimes I would have no doubt they could do it. It's not really holding Gohan or Gotenks highly. It is simply that looking at the facts displayed in front of us Goku and Vegeta stopped getting massively stronger after the Cell Games because they had no training method that could get them strong that fast any more apart from the natural "Saiyan's get stronger when they fight" method that Akira Toriyama tells us in an interview about when Goku is fighting with Beerus.

[h0kuten]

Vegeta didn't say even Gotenks couldn't hope he said. Gotenks you have no hope. It's not like Vegeta is trying to hold Gotenks highly or anything.

Although it's useless to talk to some people about Battle of Gods figures. They figure out anyway to bring Goku & Vegeta down and power up Gohan or Gotenks.

It took Goku and Vegeta 7 years to catch up to Gohan after the Cell Games. Even with them attaining SSJ2 and having trained for 7 years it was still fairly close. There is no reason not to believe that Goku and Vegeta would find it hard to catch up to Gotenks and Gohan in just 4 years given a similar power gap as the Cell Games. Somebody said in this thread that Goku said he had reached his limits and couldn't get much stronger after the first trip to the RoSaT. I don't think that is quite accurate. What Goku was saying was he had reached the limits of what that training could provide him and any more than that would just be torture instead of training. At this point in the manga I feel Goku and Vegeta had maxed out the limitations of the training they got through all the training methods they used up to this point. This is why it took them 7 years to catch up to Gohan. Their gains had become very small. The only effective way for them to get stronger now is to fight against a stronger opponent as per what Akira Toriyama stated about Goku fighting against Beerus.

So it isn't like Goku can Vegeta couldn't catch up to Gohan and Gotenks by the time of Battle of Gods. They just lack an effective training method to do it in that amount of time. Given 7+ years of their current training regimes I would have no doubt they could do it. It's not really holding Gohan or Gotenks highly. It is simply that looking at the facts displayed in front of us Goku and Vegeta stopped getting massively stronger after the Cell Games because they had no training method that could get them strong that fast any more apart from the natural "Saiyan's get stronger when they fight" method that Akira Toriyama tells us in an interview about when Goku is fighting with Beerus.

It took Goku 7 years to unlock 2 new Ssj transformations. It took Vegeta 7 to unlock 1.

Goku said going into the RoSaT would damage his body, he didn't say he 'couldn't' get stronger.

As I said previously, potential changes as often as new Ssj transformations do. They may have capped out in the space between The Cell Games and Buu Saga, but between the Buu Saga to Dragonball Super or BoG, it's quite clear they are #1 again.

[Rocketman]

And also we know that Gohan was meant to be a Super Saiyan only in the movie, which would make his fight with Beerus, Vegeta doing better, and Gotenks seemingly being the strongest make perfect sense.

The fan outcry just made them color his hair black, they didn't bother readjusting the fight.

[dbgtFO]

And also we know that Gohan was meant to be a Super Saiyan only in the movie, which would make his fight with Beerus, Vegeta doing better, and Gotenks seemingly being the strongest make perfect sense.

The fan outcry just made them color his hair black, they didn't bother readjusting the fight.

I wonder, if it was in Toriyama's script and he at this point only remembers Gohan as he were before he got ultimate and that's why Gohan doesn't even know, if he can go Super Saiyan in [F]. A shame we didn't get his script for BoG, but seriously getting these kind of scripts at all is pretty fucking awesome, I must say!
I wonder why we got it. Maybe it was Toei's way of telling the fans, that they were staying as true as possible to the original script, so stop complaining

[h0kuten]

And also we know that Gohan was meant to be a Super Saiyan only in the movie, which would make his fight with Beerus, Vegeta doing better, and Gotenks seemingly being the strongest make perfect sense.

The fan outcry just made them color his hair black, they didn't bother readjusting the fight.

Gotenks never appeared to be the strongest. Vegeta told him to stop because he didn't stand a chance.

Promotional material doesn't affect the finished material.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Gotenks never appeared to be the strongest. Vegeta told him to stop because he didn't stand a chance.

Beers took Vegeta out easily. Vegeta seemed surprised at how easily Beers took down Gotenks. Why would Vegeta be surprised if Gotenks was weaker than himself?

Promotional material doesn't affect the finished material.

So ignore the original intent of the script and animation, which completely affects the feats / power-scaling, only because they colored his hair in black?

[h0kuten]

Beerus had to kick Vegeta several times in the face and punch him several times. Vegeta told Gotenks not to attack Beerus because Vegeta knew he was going to loose having lost himself.

It doesn't affect the feats of the movies. If Toriyama said 'The feats are there to show whose stronger than who' you wouldn't believe it. So please don't give me this crap about the feats correlating to his Ssj state.

[Truhan]

I won't take any revival of Dragon Ball as we knew from the manga for granted. It's like making Dinosaurs out of recovered DNA by manipulating it in Jurassic Park: you won't get the real deal, but a theme park monster instead, engineered to look like anything. DB Super has been messing with fan favourite plot points that were left fossilized in the original manga run, so far as to promote Beerus or Whis behind any event, and that is tasteless. All of this to agree with whoever said that the writing, if not the concept itself, of DB Super is quite poor.

[Captain Space]

I won't take any revival of Dragon Ball as we knew from the manga for granted. It's like making Dinosaurs out of recovered DNA by manipulating it in Jurassic Park: you won't get the real deal, but a theme park monster instead, engineered to look like anything. DB Super has been messing with fan favourite plot points that were left fossilized in the original manga run, so far as to promote Beerus or Whis behind any event, and that is tasteless. All of this to agree with whoever said that the writing, if not the concept itself, of DB Super is quite poor.

You may be missing the point of what was said a little:

He didn't say Super's writing as a whole was poor. He said that the way Super tackled this particular subject was.