Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[Kamiccolo9]

There's only one way to settle this:

VS

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY

Sounds good to me. I'll bring popcorn. Allons-y!

Anyway, I'm leaving this thread. I've made my point.

[VegettoEX]

The good lot of you (including those of you reporting posts) are in danger of losing your Kanzenshuu account permanently, regardless of whether or not you have formally received an account strike - infractions at this point are that severe. This ban revokes access to the entirety of the website (news, guides, podcast, forum, etc.).

Read that statement again, re-evalute what you want, and then decide how you want to proceed here.

[GokuRules987]

can erase you completely from existence as he proceeds to blink all version's of superman out of existence without even lifting a finger? lol

Well the only version that could win is Cosmic Armor because of the whole "I write the plot and it dictates that I win" nonsense.

No Cosmic Armor Superman is not omnipotent and not even close since he was wounded beyond repair and villain he fought did no more damage than what galactus did during the Black Celestial Arc,The avatar of Masaki Tenchi is omnipotent, he was easily beyond a multiverse level busters such as chousins that could be compared to even strongest versions of superman. He is a literal walking plot device.
He can literaly exist outside of everything, even outside of Cosmic Armor Superman limbo form. He is completely Indomitable, Singularity,Unimind, Can replicate any powers and control all prime force.

CA Supes is at best a multiversal level threat while Tenchi is an omniversal level. He could rewrite superman, depower superman, blink away superman or become superman.

[Bando]

If you're admittedly picking and choosing what rules to follow for your calculations, why should I, or anyone else, care what you come up with? I could decided with equal validity that the DB Earth is made of cheese, like Polyphase Avatron joked about above, and it would make just as much sense.

Go ahead, but people won't acknowledge it if their focus is to determine which fictional character would win in a fight and not to make silly assumptions for the sake of it.

Again, that's not how debating works. You don't get to decide what facts are in evidence. You work with what you have. For Dragon Ball, there isn't much to work with, especially once you get above the relatively small numbers Toriyama gives us.

Yes we can. Whether you want to participate or not is up to you. No one is saying these are official scenarios, so we can make whatever rules that we think would be as close to an official fight between the two characters as possible. And in that scenario, I doubt Toriyama's going to reveal "DB world is made of cheese!!"

Do you really only use your imagination when a story tells you to?

"I am reading an officially licensed product, I will now suspend my disbelief. I see two people discussing non-official crossover fights between characters, I will now turn off my suspension and tell them their debate isn't to scientific standards."

"More fun" isn't relevant to a discussion on logical debate.

Uhm, what? A debate about which cartoon character would win a fight isn't about fun? I'm not following.

Some people would say that the authors never considered that people would be arguing whether their fictional creations would win in a fight against the fictional creations of other authors in the first place, so saying that 'the author didn't consider it' doesn't matter in these kinds of debates.

Of course I'm not sure I buy that, but that is one argument people have put forth.

I addressed this sorta with the "go with what's entertaining" guideline.

The point is to use our collective imaginations to try and figure out how a fight would logically play out, not to logically deduce the fight wouldn't be possible in the first place. It'd be like telling authors of fanfiction stories they should stop writing them because their work isn't official and the author didn't think of those ideas. Pretty sure they know that.

In a way these fights are also just one giant fanfiction but with people trying to convince each other whose interpretation is more accurate. And that's okay because no one ever said this was official. So I don't understand why there's always that group of people who feel they need to remind us we can't have fun because we'd be "breaking the rules of the scientific method". The humanity!

Edit: I should tack on "as long as reasonable" to that guideline. Some people take this whole "you can't make assumptions on anything in fiction" thing too far. Just last week someone told me we couldn't determine Uncle Ben from Spider-Man was slower than Vegetto because we would have to make assumptions about how Uncle Ben was before he died. And while it would be entertaining to see Uncle Ben fight Dragonball characters on equal terms, it certainly wouldn't be reasonable or coherent.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The good lot of you (including those of you reporting posts) are in danger of losing your Kanzenshuu account permanently, regardless of whether or not you have formally received an account strike - infractions at this point are that severe. This ban revokes access to the entirety of the website (news, guides, podcast, forum, etc.).

Read that statement again, re-evalute what you want, and then decide how you want to proceed here.

Well I have a feeling you're not talking about me but just in case I'm not going to bother arguing stuff here anymore.

[h0kuten]

I have an issue with screwattacks way of approaching Superman and giving him a 'no limits fallacy' level of power. They based his physical capabilities on his character and presume Superman doesn't have limits. Superman most definitely does have physical limits. Even on ComicVine, there is a joke going around about 'ScrewAttack' Superman being unbeatable and having an infinite level of power and only being beaten by say... Wally West (Blood Lusted) or Goku (With Fan Speculation), ect ect.

Anyways, someone has to do an actual, in depth analysis on the two fighters and come to some sort of reasonable consensus.

[Bando]

Somewhat relevant:

Spoiler:

I haven't caught up with the latest on New 52 Superman. From where I left off:

-Had two statements stating he was faster than lightning.
-Shed a single drop of sweat after weight-training with the equivalence of Earth's weight five days in a row (beginning of the H'El arc).
-He fought a dragon/serpent like creature from Krypton that he punched with "the force to level a mountain".
-Punched H'el, a fellow Kryptonian, for all he was worth but could not phase him even though the solar system was about to collapse. He was punching him, again, with enough force to "level mountains". The force of his blows were felt from a lab in the center of the Earth to the Justice League's spaceship (end of H'El arc).

I also found out today he flew from the "universe's edge" to the Earth in two months and survived going through (or near?) multiple black holes in order to rid himself of some virus from Brianiac or something.

Sounds like he could beat Goku to me.

[h0kuten]

Ssj2 tier fighters bust Solar Systems.
Ssj3 tier fighters affect reality, and can easily tank Ssj2 tier fighters.

Gotenks Ssj Post is over 50x greater than the above statistics.

That's just a starting point.

[Bando]

There's very little to indicate Toriyama scales his characters' stats using his own multipliers. Superman may not survive a full power Kamehameha , but he can outspend Goku easily and has the physical strength to end the fight quickly.

[The Monkey King]

The closest thing we have to a complete speed feat in Dragon Ball is Goku's return down Snake Way after Kaio's training, and even that is unquantifiable, because we don't know the exact curvature of every part of the road, and Goku flew in a straight line.

What about Tao's feat:

Spoiler:

Context: before Tao Pai Pai takes off for the Karin Holy Land
Tao Pai Pai: 'It's 2,300 kilometers northeast, huh?...Well then, I'll be back in about 30 minutes.'
Note: So in other words, Tao Pai Pai says he can throw a pillar 2,300 kilometers, jump on it and ride it all the way there, beat Goku, then come all the way back in about 30 minutes.

Tao said he'd be there and back in 30 minutes.

At the maximum this means one 2300km trip would take him 15 minutes.

Which means Tao threw the pillar at a speed of 9200km an hour = 5717miles an hour = mach 7.5

Since Tao threw the pillar then casually jumped to catch up with it this makes Tao mach 15+

Spoiler:

[Polyphase Avatron]

Just wondering, do you think Death Battle will eventually make a video with Superman vs. someone else (probably someone not from Dragonball) and have Superman lose? They might feel the need to do so with all the backlash they're getting for their arguments about him being unbeatable.

[Doctor.]

Just wondering, do you think Death Battle will eventually make a video with Superman vs. someone else (probably someone not from Dragonball) and have Superman lose? They might feel the need to do so with all the backlash they're getting for their arguments about him being unbeatable.

I think they'd get even more backlash. From Goku fans who didn't get a third match where Goku wins and instead got ANOTHER character who's superior to Goku, and from everyone else who mocked them for the "unlimited potential" thing and will continue to mock them for contradicting themselves if Superman loses

[h0kuten]

Death Battle is stupid.

According to them Superman has an infinite level of power, and can never really be beaten. Whereas people like Pre-Crisis Darkseid would erase him from existence, or Odin, would over power him or Rune King Thor, who would single shot him. It's absurd they take Superman's theme of having no limits and actually use it as threshold of power for him; completely redundant, illogical and quite frankly, a fallacy.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Just wondering, do you think Death Battle will eventually make a video with Superman vs. someone else (probably someone not from Dragonball) and have Superman lose? They might feel the need to do so with all the backlash they're getting for their arguments about him being unbeatable.

I think they'd get even more backlash. From Goku fans who didn't get a third match where Goku wins and instead got ANOTHER character who's superior to Goku, and from everyone else who mocked them for the "unlimited potential" thing and will continue to mock them for contradicting themselves if Superman loses

Well it wouldn't be the first time they contradicted themselves.

[voltlunok]

Anyways, someone has to do an actual, in depth analysis on the two fighters and come to some sort of reasonable consensus.

I'm sorry to say, even if someone did that. They'd still probably come up with Goku losing. Even if we took the lifting infinity feats away, Superman has plenty and I do mean PLENTY of strength feats to show he's stronger then Goku. He has plenty of speed feats to show he's faster too.

Honestly I don't think there is a believable way for Goku to win against superman, like they said in the video "Superman is one of those guys who doesn't belong in VS matches like these anyways." or something along those lines. He is obscenely overpowered and like I said earlier, he's inconsistent due to how he's written. Superman is as strong as the writer needs him to be. With other DC heroes? They have their limits, they have things near set in stone. Supes is left in a way that his powers can freely fluctuate from writer to writer.

I would honestly much rather have this debate be laid to rest because in my opinion...it's a pointless one and again, like they point it. If Goku did find the power to beat Superman, he would have nothing left to aspire towards, he'd plateau and I'd rather not see that happen.

[h0kuten]

Anyways, someone has to do an actual, in depth analysis on the two fighters and come to some sort of reasonable consensus.

I'm sorry to say, even if someone did that. They'd still probably come up with Goku losing. Even if we took the lifting infinity feats away, Superman has plenty and I do mean PLENTY of strength feats to show he's stronger then Goku. He has plenty of speed feats to show he's faster too.

Honestly I don't think there is a believable way for Goku to win against superman, like they said in the video "Superman is one of those guys who doesn't belong in VS matches like these anyways." or something along those lines. He is obscenely overpowered and like I said earlier, he's inconsistent due to how he's written. Superman is as strong as the writer needs him to be. With other DC heroes? They have their limits, they have things near set in stone. Supes is left in a way that his powers can freely fluctuate from writer to writer.

I would honestly much rather have this debate be laid to rest because in my opinion...it's a pointless one and again, like they point it. If Goku did find the power to beat Superman, he would have nothing left to aspire towards, he'd plateau and I'd rather not see that happen.

That's debatable.

[rereboy]

What he said are mostly facts, so...

[voltlunok]

Anyways, someone has to do an actual, in depth analysis on the two fighters and come to some sort of reasonable consensus.

I'm sorry to say, even if someone did that. They'd still probably come up with Goku losing. Even if we took the lifting infinity feats away, Superman has plenty and I do mean PLENTY of strength feats to show he's stronger then Goku. He has plenty of speed feats to show he's faster too.

Honestly I don't think there is a believable way for Goku to win against superman, like they said in the video "Superman is one of those guys who doesn't belong in VS matches like these anyways." or something along those lines. He is obscenely overpowered and like I said earlier, he's inconsistent due to how he's written. Superman is as strong as the writer needs him to be. With other DC heroes? They have their limits, they have things near set in stone. Supes is left in a way that his powers can freely fluctuate from writer to writer.

I would honestly much rather have this debate be laid to rest because in my opinion...it's a pointless one and again, like they point it. If Goku did find the power to beat Superman, he would have nothing left to aspire towards, he'd plateau and I'd rather not see that happen.

That's debatable.

What's debatable? I made plenty of points and you reply with two words. Not trying to be rude and I apologize if I come off like that but please elaborate beyond "That's debatable." because just saying that isn't a debate. That's just dismissing the points I've made and that in itself can be rather rude. If you wish to debate then please by all means debate, that's what the thread is here for and if it can remain civil then great.

[White Oni]

Beerus can effortlessly obliterate half a planet with the tap of a finger...

Whis confirmed that FTL speeds are present in the DB universe.


People like to talk about weight lifting feats but any points made by those numbers are made completely moot, when you consider that IMPACT force, not weight lifting is relevant to fighting...

The same way the flash can't lift anywhere near as much as superman, but yet, can pack just as strong, if not stronger a punch.

One of the most powerful impact forces in DC is the HIGHLY risky Infinite Mass Punch, dubbed so, because it's a punch performed while traveling at the speed of light.

Both the flash and Superman have performed the punch and both have been knocked out by forces far weaker.

Here's the deal, Roshi fires a KMHMH at the moon that blows it up, Big deal, blowing up the moon is child's play for DBZ right? Well sure, but have you stopped to think about how fast someone would have to be to dodge such a blast? The blast had to be traveling at someone between 1-3/3 the speed of light to reach the moon in such a short period of time.

That means that someone dodging that blast would have to move (let's be generous here) somewhere between 1-100/100th the speed of light. Given that there's some time between the release of the blast, and the blast reaching the person, for the attacked person to respond and move.


By the end of Z, Goku can effortlessly dodge attacks like this, meaning that his fighting speed is EASILY FTL.

Yes, superman CAN travel at the speed of light AND sometimes even faster, to the point where he can actually break the boundaries of reality itself. HOWEVER, he's only ever able to accomplish this in the vacuum of space and after some time of building speed. He lacks something like the speed force or Ki, to move himself at such speeds without momentum.

What this means is that while superman could match Goku's speed in theory, it's not practical at all, not only would Goku need to let him build speed in space for some time, superman would be stuck moving forward at the speed of light, where as goku can levitate and fight at the speed of light without having to maintain momentum. Let's not even go into Goku's IT that could make it near impossible for superman to hit him.


So we know for certain that Goku can't be touched by a non dipped supes.

But does Goku have the strength to break superman's durability?

Well, the simple answer is, DUHHHH... Superman has had his durability broken by Wonder Woman's less than planet busting punches. Cell's KMHMH was capable destroying the entire solar system... That alone would, at the very least, knock out Superman, but we all know SSJG's KMHMH is unimaginably stronger.


So...

1) Superman would never be able to hit Goku, so even if he was a trillion times stronger, it'd mean nothing. (Think Trunks vs Cell/ Bulky Cell vs Gohan)

2) Goku packs FAR more than enough to break superman's durability and at least knock him out, giving time for spirit bomb.


A completely different note, that I almost didn't bother throwing in, because I believe it's silly, BUT, still true:

Diana was able to cut superman's throat, immobilizing him, with her tiara, because it was laced with magic.
If Goku used his power pole, like he did in the first Screw attack video, Superman would have been beaten to a bloody pulp... Assuming we're factoring in a weakness/vulnerability to magic, like screw attack was...

[rereboy]

Beerus can effortlessly obliterate half a planet with the tap of a finger...

Whis confirmed that FTL speeds are present in the DB universe.


People like to talk about weight lifting feats but any points made by those numbers are made completely moot, when you consider that IMPACT force, not weight lifting is relevant to fighting...

The same way the flash can't lift anywhere near as much as superman, but yet, can pack just as strong, if not stronger a punch.

One of the most powerful impact forces in DC is the HIGHLY risky Infinite Mass Punch, dubbed so, because it's a punch performed while traveling at the speed of light.

Both the flash and Superman have performed the punch and both have been knocked out by forces far weaker.

Have you seen the video for the Deathbattle? They show a Superman feat of him traveling literally millions of times faster than light speed in minutes. And that's not even his fastest version or fastest feat.