Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Daimo-Rukiri]

Ok I'm going to give my full thoughts:
16.- How are SSJ Goten and Trunks weaker than freaking SSJ Freeza arc Goku...??

Super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, just because they're Super Saiyans doesn't necessarily mean they can beat full power Freeza.

I'm kinda curious if whis is Omnipotent in that there is a creator for each Universe versus one creator.

[ZombieVito]

Not in Dragon Ball. Unless you're using a form that decreases your speed, like the Grade SS forms, or equipment like weights, then being faster than someone else equals having a higher battle power as well.

Not true.

Goku was weaker than Ginyu and was still faster than him.
Daizenshuu 2 states Piccolo's power was equal to Freeza's second form and he was still faster.

Ok I'm going to give my full thoughts:
16.- How are SSJ Goten and Trunks weaker than freaking SSJ Freeza arc Goku...??

Super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, just because they're Super Saiyans doesn't necessarily mean they can beat full power Freeza.

I'm kinda curious if whis is Omnipotent in that there is a creator for each Universe versus one creator.

So can Freeza do this?

Spoiler:

Or this?

Spoiler:

That's just laughable.

[MaGyunia]

Nice to see that the list I created generated so many replies. It's also a good thing to have a debate over it with agreeing and disagreeing positions.

I won't reply to all of the rebukes to my list, although I could do so at least on the majority of them.

Keep on with your thoughts, though, I might reply in detail sooner or later to all of you.

[MaGyunia]

Golden Freeza is superior to both SSGSSs when he's at full power, both Goku and Freeza admit that.

Yes, but I've deliberately chosen to put him below both SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta because of the time restraints he experiences when using the form, which eventually cause him to lose to both of them.

Makes no sense for placing him under SSGSSjins,,,why would you even put Grade 3 Trunks above his Grade 2 if eventually he would loose the fight due to lack of speed ?

Because, unlike the Golden Freeza vs Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks in his Super Saiya-jin Dai San Dankai stage, despite his drastic lack of speed, still managed to give Perfect Cell a much harder time than Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, who is above Trunks in his Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai stage.

[MaGyunia]

Ok I'm going to give my full thoughts:
16.- How are SSJ Goten and Trunks weaker than freaking SSJ Freeza arc Goku...??

Super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, just because they're Super Saiyans doesn't necessarily mean they can beat full power Freeza.

I'm kinda curious if whis is Omnipotent in that there is a creator for each Universe versus one creator.

Zombie, you're implying with no evidence whatsoever that both kid Trunks and kid Goten are both stronger than Super Saiya-jin Goku when he fights Freeza on Namek. I ask you: why? Even before Goku became a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin on Namek, he had overcome numerous barriers, was close to death more than once, was constantly fighting and underwent insane training in the spaceship while on his way to Namek. Trunks and Goten both turned Super Saiya-jin on a rather natural basis, given the genes received from their respective gifted pure-Saiya-jin fathers. There really is no point to go at it other than resorting to pure speculation, but it's just my opinion that Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek is stronger than both Super Saiya-jin Trunks and Super Saiya-jin Goten. You're entitled to disagree on this one and pretty much on every single one, that was the whole purpose of the creation of the list I generated: to get your opinions.

It was made in a rush and I did put some effort on it, I didn't really spend 10 hours doing it. Of course it will have flaws or, in the very least, contain debatable rankings here and there.

[rereboy]

Super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier, just because they're Super Saiyans doesn't necessarily mean they can beat full power Freeza.

I'm kinda curious if whis is Omnipotent in that there is a creator for each Universe versus one creator.

SSJ Goten actually was giving SSJ Gohan a good training and SSJ Trunks really scared #18 with a contained Ki blast, so it's pretty safe to assume they are stronger than Freeza.

[Saiga]

Actually there is plenty of evidence that Goten and Trunks are stronger than Goku was on Namek.

[*]They have the features of "full power" Super Saiyans. Not just physically, but they can also control their power.
[*]Goten spars evenly with Gohan, who is FAR stronger than Namek arc Goku. Gohan can be seen sweating from the effort.
[*]Trunks can land a punch on Vegeta and take a punch in return.
[*]Their power freaks 18 out even when suppressed, and she chooses not to fight them directly. Trunks holds back his blast so he doesn't kill her, and it is made clear that Goten and Trunks know how strong she is.
[*]When Vegeta dies and Gohan is presumed dead, Piccolo calls them "Earth's last hope" without knowing about fusion.
[*]Their full power shocks Piccolo.
[*]The guidebooks have various comments that put them at least on par with 18, ranging all the way up to Gohan's level.

Yes, Goku had gone through a lot when he first became a Super Saiyan... but he also went through a lot when he won the 23rd Budokai, and yet Gohan was able to surpass that level a four years old, with a year of training. The half-breed children are really strong, and were never that far behind the others.

[MaGyunia]

Actually there is plenty of evidence that Goten and Trunks are stronger than Goku was on Namek.

[*]They have the features of "full power" Super Saiyans. Not just physically, but they can also control their power.
[*]Goten spars evenly with Gohan, who is FAR stronger than Namek arc Goku. Gohan can be seen sweating from the effort.
[*]Trunks can land a punch on Vegeta and take a punch in return.
[*]Their power freaks 18 out even when suppressed, and she chooses not to fight them directly. Trunks holds back his blast so he doesn't kill her, and it is made clear that Goten and Trunks know how strong she is.
[*]When Vegeta dies and Gohan is presumed dead, Piccolo calls them "Earth's last hope" without knowing about fusion.
[*]Their full power shocks Piccolo.
[*]The guidebooks have various comments that put them at least on par with 18, ranging all the way up to Gohan's level.

Yes, Goku had gone through a lot when he first became a Super Saiyan... but he also went through a lot when he won the 23rd Budokai, and yet Gohan was able to surpass that level a four years old, with a year of training. The half-breed children are really strong, and were never that far behind the others.

Some of your points are acceptable, but #18 fights the two of them at the same time (as in, 1 against 2) and manages to hold her own, while back in the Jinzouningen arc she was just slightly above Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who in turn was only slightly above Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek.

Piccolo (and Vegeta, and Gohan, for that matter) are astonished not exactly at their power, but at the fact that they're able to turn Super Saiya-jin at such a young age.

When they're in the gravity room early in the Majin Buu arc training for the upcoming Tenkaichi Budokai, If Vegeta had been training/fighting to his fullest, Trunks wouldn't even come close to him and would defeated Trunks in a matter of seconds.

Being able to control their power and keep their fighting instincts under control is one feature of the Super Saiya-jin Full Power stage, sure, but, apart from that, on what basis do you say they're on that stage, or, even better, are you suggesting they're as strong or nearly as strong as Goku and Gohan as Super Saiya-jin Full Power against Cell?

Gohan is training with a kid who can become Super Saiya-jin. He's not in his Super Saiya-jin 2 form, most likely in his SSJ Full Power state. Someone as strong as a Super Saiya-jin, even as a kid, could present him with problems, taking into account his lack of training and resulting decrease in terms of reflexes, agility, power and velocity. Hence the trouble he had and the sweat you mentioned.

In fact, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha and even Chaozu show up stronger against the Saiya-jin than Goku was when he fought and beat Piccolo in the Piccolo Jr. arc. Of course half-breed Saiya-jin have a natural talent or ability to be massively powerful. Even in the first episodes of DBZ. on the planet he just conquered along with Nappa, Vegeta speculates that the offspring of a Saiya-jin with a non-Saiya-jin could produce a better result than a pure Saiya-jin. That shouldn't mean Goten and Trunks possess that ability to the same degree Gohan does, and/or that it's an inevitable and automatic thing. Natural abilities vs training: which one provides the fighter with the most power? If we went by that, Goku would be a joke from the beginning. He was born with a fighting power of 2, and by Saiya-jin standards even his power level when he fought Piccolo Daimao or Piccolo was laughable, and yet he went on to surpass not even Nappa and Vegeta, and actually overcame even that through intense and massive training to become stronger than the Ginyu Tokusentai, and then went on to overcome Freeza, and then #17 and #18, then Cell, then Gohan in his Super Saiya-jin 2 stage, then Majin Buu at least in his fat form, and more recently ANY version of Super Buu, Gotenks or Vegitto. I'm not defending Goku because I'm a huge fan of his. I actually prefer Vegeta and Piccolo, for that matter. However, if there's an instance in which I admire Goku (and there's more than one, obviously), that's when he took revenge on Freeza by being the first one to become a full-fledged Super Saiya-jin to once again save the day. The kids haven't really accomplished anything, either on their own or indeed fused, and if we took into account GT, they're pretty much like Gohan, skipping training all the time and neglecting to develop and build up on their massive power.

Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jin, are the only ones willing to overcome their limits and reach new stages of power, and they do it successfully, despite a few instances here and there when Gohan went beyond Vegeta. That was already/will soon be fixed, though.

Can you really imagine a fight between a full-powered angry fighting-machine Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek against each of those two brats? Sorry, but I'll keep my position and I'll still hold SSJ Goku on Namek stronger than each of them (not to mention his improvements later on, against Mirai no Trunks, #19 and all the subsequent SSJ stages, obviously).

[rereboy]

Some of your points are acceptable, but #18 fights the two of them at the same time (as in, 1 against 2) and manages to hold her own

They only traded blows with #18 in their base form, not their SSJ form. They didn't use SSJ except at the very end of the match and the only attack made by either of them as SSJs was Trunks' Ki blast which he specifically stated was a contained Ki blast, and that still scared #18 very much.

After that, #18 just realized who she was dealing with so she launched an Kienzan to rip their outfit and the match was over.

It's clear that they are at, the very least, #18's level, who is much powerful than Freeza.

[Saiga]

Some of your points are acceptable, but #18 fights the two of them at the same time (as in, 1 against 2) and manages to hold her own, while back in the Jinzouningen arc she was just slightly above Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, who in turn was only slightly above Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek.

She holds her own only against base Goten/Trunks, and immediately opts to end the battle without fighting them once she sees a suppressed portion of their Super Saiyan power.

Piccolo (and Vegeta, and Gohan, for that matter) are astonished not exactly at their power, but at the fact that they're able to turn Super Saiya-jin at such a young age.

This is absolutely untrue. Piccolo gets freaked out by them powering up, long after he's seen them be Super Saiyans. It simply can't be what he's reacting to.

When they're in the gravity room early in the Majin Buu arc training for the upcoming Tenkaichi Budokai, If Vegeta had been training/fighting to his fullest, Trunks wouldn't even come close to him and would defeated Trunks in a matter of seconds.

You have no evidence for this claim. Vegeta specifically wants to see if Trunks can hit him, and tries to dodge. He's surprised Trunks can hit him. If Vegeta held back so that any Super Saiyan could hit him, there'd be no need to be surprised. It's the fact that Trunks is actually capable of hitting Vegeta that makes it important.

Being able to control their power and keep their fighting instincts under control is one feature of the Super Saiya-jin stage, sure, but on what basis do you say they're on that stage, or, even better, are you suggesting they're as strong or nearly as strong as Goku and Gohan as Super Saiya-jin Full Power against Cell?

The fact that they show ALL the signs of it. Control of their power, rested expressions, and the distinct Super Saiyan Full Power stage. The guidebooks even note the aura for Super Saiyan Full Power is unique. The reason given for this is they've simply had the form for a long time (Goten can't even remember when he first became a Super Saiyan) and they've play-fought each other a lot. Sparring Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan was the given reason that Goku's RoSaT training was so effective.

Gohan is training with a kid who can become Super Saiya-jin. He's not in his Super Saiya-jin 2 form, most likely in his SSJ Full Power state. Someone as strong as a Super Saiya-jin, even as a kid, could present him with problems, taking into account his lack of training and resulting decrease in terms of reflexes, agility, power and velocity. Hence the trouble he had and the sweat you mentioned.

Yeah, I know he's just a Super Saiyan. But Super Saiyan Gohan, is at this point, extremely strong. For Goten to keep up with him is very impressive.

Can you really imagine a fight between a full-powered angry fighting-machine Super Saiya-jin Goku on Namek against each of those two brats? Sorry, but I'll keep my position and I'll still hold SSJ Goku on Namek stronger than each of them (not to mention his improvements later on, against Mirai no Trunks, #19 and all the subsequent SSJ stages, obviously).

Yes, I can. It's not much different to how 5-year-old Gohan would absolutely DESTROY 23rd Budokai Goku, who had become the greatest martial artist in the world after an epic battle with Piccolo. Or how kid Goku easily defeating a gigantic bear-man-thing.

They're "brats" but that means absolutely nothing against them in Dragon Ball. Nor does Goku being a "fighting machine" because tough-looking guys get their asses kicked all over the series. There is simply no evidence that puts Namek Goku ahead of the boys, only what feels "right". And I'm worry to say but that feeling that way doesn't make for a sound argument.

[MaGyunia]

Yeah, it might be just the emotions talking, I don't know. I simply can't accept that the epic circumstances in which Goku transformed into Super Saiya-jin against Freeza are going to be overcome by a duo of brats. I'm not saying I hate them or anything, far from it.

Yes, Gohan would destroy Goku if he went on an insane rampage like he did against Raditz, but Gohan took an enormous amount of time to develop his full potential and finally cease from being a cray baby and overcome Goku, Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks, Piccolo, #17, #18 and #16. Even taking into account the fact that he's just a kid and has been so for the entirety of DBZ until the end of the Cell Games, his full potential took some tome to come about. He had to be put to the sidelines and be coached by Goku to do so, he wasn't at first even sure he would be able to do it.

Doesn't really matter, though. In the current circumstances, Goku and Vegeta will very soon take the spotlight and become not only the main protagonists of the series but also the strongest "good guys" in Dragonball, which is just fitting considering Gohan's lack of interest in training and resulting decrease in power. Of course, the same goes for Goten and Trunks, who are and never were anywhere near Goku, Vegeta or Gohan and will never be.

[MaGyunia]

You need to take into account that I did that exercise in less than 10 minutes, so of course there's bound to be imperfections/inconsistencies or in the very least debatable rankings.

However, instead of pointing out the rankings you disagree with, why don't you highlight the ones you agree with as well? Or even better, why don't you go through the same process and generate a list of your own? No animosity here towards any of you, just a plain suggestion.

But yeah, overall it's good to have this many replies to my initial intent to generate a power-level list by arc/movie/special, with so many agreeing and disagreeing positions. That was actually expectable and the very point of the initiative.

[ZombieVito]

Stop double posting.

[MaGyunia]

Stop double posting.

Second time in a matter of minutes somebody complaints about it.

I guess it's time to refrain from posting at all, I don't feel I'm very welcome here.

[rereboy]

Stop double posting.

Second time in a matter of minutes somebody complaints about it.

I guess it's time to refrain from posting at all, I don't feel I'm very welcome here.

It's just to help you out since the moderators and administrators of the forum prefer that the users edit their last post to add more stuff rather than doing double or triple posts in a row.

[JoeCapricorn]

I find it an interesting thought experiment to try and imagine what the power levels of SSGSS Vegeta and Goku are in the same numerical scale that was used in the early half of Dragon Ball Z. These are just my musings, and literally my first post speculating on Dragon Ball power levels on any Dragon Ball forum.

I see lots of power level lists that kind of take the multiplication of power level as a linear numerical scale. Others might be a reverse exponential scale (the power difference between 10 and 100 is much greater than between 1 billion and 10 billion) or a standard exponential scale (SSJ Goku power level is around 350 or something silly like that)

The highest power level we have from an official source is 2,500,000,000 which is Super Saiyan Gogeta.

Then we have that whole "Goku SSG is a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15" quote. That could be useful.

If we make things simple and simply say that those numbers are the multiple of SSJ Gogeta, we would get SSG Goku at 15 billion, Beerus at 25 billion and Whis at 37.5 billion.

Those are not levels impossible to reach for someone at Vegeta's level. This is also the numbers I'm going to use - it kind of becomes ridiculous to start imagining power levels in the actual quintillions (although the Frieza being a "nice guy" is a good pun). There was a massive increase in orders of magnitude during the Saiyan and Frieza arc - from ten to the power of three in the first few episodes, then 10^4 for Raditz, 10^5 for Vegeta, 10^6 for Ginyu, 10^7 for Frieza after his first transformation and finally 10^9 for Super Saiyan Goku. Then for the rest of DBZ, there is two more orders of magnitude - 10^11 for Super Saiyan Gogeta (and probably by extension Super Saiyan Vegetto since Gogeta doesn't actually appear in the series proper)

If Beerus is the next level, the next order of magnitude, then between 10 billion and 99 billion is a reasonable estimate. 25 billion is my personal estimate of SS4 Gogeta as well, with SSJ4 Goku starting out at around 9 billion plus one.

Vegeta and Goku are both sitting somewhere between a billion and two billion, with Goku having a slight edge, at the start of Dragon Ball Super. They probably might have both reduced their power levels or hit a plateau. It's not impossible to imagine Vegeta achieving Super Saiyan 3 at some point if he kept training, and he definitely has that same competitive edge - if Goku can go SSJ 3, why can't he? With the world at peace, he would have the time to catch up.

Gohan definitely went down in power level - so maybe approximately 800 million for him. But don't count him out just yet - we may see him return to glory and probably hit two more orders of magnitude.

Although Dragon Ball Super may tell it differently, there was a moment when Vegeta was able to land a blow on Beerus. He briefly became stronger than Goku, but was probably for a moment around 2.5 billion in power level - ten percent of Beerus. Beerus was not expecting any sort of serious competition, however, since up until that point he likely faced foes that only had power levels measurable in at most six or seven digits. In other words, extremely small in comparison. The Super Saiyans would have provided him some competition, but even a Super Saiyan 3 could not come close. Goku already had shown Beerus all three stages of Super Saiyan, so to see a "mere" Super Saiyan 1 come at him even with the amount of fury Vegeta had after Beerus struck Bulma, it probably didn't register in his mind that maybe he might be able to land a blow.

My guess of the multi-eyed alien that Beerus faces off and blocks blows using only his finger is he has a power level of 850,000.

We only have three episodes of Super aired, so the next bit of speculation is only based on movies, but here goes -

At some point Goku and Vegeta are training with Whis. It could be that Vegeta reached Super Saiyan God just to keep up with Goku, or it could be that Goku was unable for whatever reason to attain the form. Vegeta would have needed at least five other Saiyans to transform - so what if the same method was used, only now Pan is born and Bra is on the way? So it's Pan, Bra, Trunks, Goten and Gohan giving Vegeta the power of Super Saiyan God.

There is another way that Vegeta could attain the power. Whis is a weird fellow, he might have somehow "remembered" the energy that five Saiyans emitted - this would allow him to attain Super Saiyan God with only Whis present.

If Vegeta's Super Saiyan God transformation is out of necessity, it could mean that Champa first appears soon after the Battle of Gods arc, or even during - as an untold chapter and extension of the movie. Maybe Beerus told him about the kind of good food Earth has and seeing how Champa is so much fatter than Beerus it wouldn't be surprising to see that being the entire reason he goes to Earth.

Champa would have a power level similar to Beerus. I don't think it would matter if Beerus was stronger or weaker than Champa, since I doubt he would interfere if Champa got mad and tried to blow up Earth. Maybe it is easy to just assume that Champa has a power level the same as Beerus - at 25 billion and Champa's attendant probably being at 37.5 billion as well.

These "low" figures of power level would make it "easy" for Frieza to reach the level he does after only a month of training. He only has to increase his power times one hundred. That certainly isn't impossible, since Vegeta did it on Namek in just a few days (going from about 20,000 to 2,000,000). So I think the final form of Frieza, before his "Ultimate Evolution" is probably around 12 billion. If he multiplied his power times one hundred fifty, he sits at 18 billion, and that is my estimate for Golden Frieza.

Goku, after training with Whis and attaining SSGSS, is probably around 18 billion. Vegeta, I think, is slightly stronger, maybe at 18.25 billion. Frieza is not able to sustain the peak level of 18 billion, however, and by the end of his fight with Goku could have dropped down to 17 billion, making it possible that Goku is still stronger than Vegeta at 18 billion and Vegeta being at 17.5 billion.

Those figures are still lower than Beerus by a large margin - because I think after Resurrection 'F', that is most likely when Champa appears. If Champa is a villain, he would probably be around the same level as Beerus. And he might not be easily subdued.

Beyond this, no other characters are announced, but things are pure speculation. What would Goku's power level be by the final chapter of Dragon Ball Z if taking into account Super Saiyan Gods and multi-Universe travel? I think eventually Goku will exceed Whis. He will probably be anywhere from 40 billion to 1 trillion at End of Z. If Dragon Ball Super tells a story beyond this point in time, it could be possible that Pan's story is retold - maybe Pan is a super prodigy among Saiyans, and her power level at the age of 5 is already one billion. Maybe she reaches a Super Saiyan Super God Saiyan Beyond God Super Saiyan Level Nine, which would change her form so insignificantly that the only difference being a single strand of hair grows from the top of her head.

Sorry, I went a bit silly there. I won't do that again. I can't promise that though. I am a silly person.

[singsing]

I'd say your list is almost literally impossible due to the fact that SSJ3 Goku would already be at 1.2 billion in the Freeza arc, and I'm almost certain that SSG Goku is more than 13x stronger than a SSJ3 Freeza arc Goku.

[Sora Saiyan]

To be fair to JoeCapricorn he's using the power levels that were given to promote a game, (I believe it might've been Budokai 3, but I'm not sure) but they actually really don't work IMO, as there are instances where the androids have to be at the absolute minimum twice as strong as SSJ Goku on Namek.
Later on we see how much stronger Imperfect Cell (post absorptions) is compared to #17, then #16 reveals himself to be around Cell's level, also. Then we have Semi perfect, Perfect, and Super Perfect Cell come into the picture, who all appear to be at least twice as strong as before. I believe the power jumps are a lot higher than just 2x, but I'm using a bare minimum. I could go into greater depth, but effort.

[Bullza]

I'd say your list is almost literally impossible due to the fact that SSJ3 Goku would already be at 1.2 billion in the Freeza arc, and I'm almost certain that SSG Goku is more than 13x stronger than a SSJ3 Freeza arc Goku.

Yeah pretty much this. I'm sure that SSJ3 Goku would easily have had a power level over 2.5 billion by the Buu arc so it'd make no sense for SSJ Gogeta to ever be that low. SSJG Goku I could see being dozens of times stronger than that.

I don't know if their power levels are into the trillions or anything like that though...yet.

[JoeCapricorn]

Here's an interesting thought - Master Roshi fights in Resurrection 'F' - I'm assuming he can hold his own. This either means he got stronger, or the average power level of Frieza's army is around 100.

Due to some interesting bits of lore, it seems Roshi is no longer aging (and arguably may live for a very long time to come unless he grabs the wrong set of boobs and gets murdered), so the time lapsed between the Dragon Ball days to Resurrection F would not impact his power level through aging.

What if he had a power up instead? Not even through training, but through observation of the Z fighters' abilities. Goku is more known to have the ability to replicate techniques - he tries the Kamehameha and destroys a car on his first attempt when it took Master Roshi fifty years to master the technique. When he does a max power kamehameha, he goes through a sort of transformation.

Several decades have passed since Roshi first met Goku and in that time he has seen tremendously powerful villains. Even other human characters are reaching respectable levels of power (even if they still pale in comparison to Goku) - so why not Master Roshi?

This made me wonder, and it seems Akira Toriyama even suggests that Roshi would have been able to defeat Raditz if he were there and fought seriously. He probably could have done the same to King Piccolo, or it could be that attaining his maximum power takes a lot longer and Piccolo would never have given him the chance.

So I'm estimating that Master Roshi in the general era of Dragon Ball Super has a power level of at least 100,000.

But for the heavy hitters - Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, Whis, Golden Frieza, Champa - the power levels are speculative at best. They could be in the tens or hundreds of billions, or far beyond into the trillions, quadrillions and even quintillions (making the "nice guy" statement on Golden Frieza a serious estimate instead of a pun-based joke)

If anything, if we ever see a 'return' to power levels being mentioned in the series, it will be done in a silly way and probably involve a number that has over nine thousand zeroes. Something ridiculous like that.