Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:47 pm

This post turned out longer than it should..
Hopefully my ramblings won't melt your brains :crazy:

Basically I somewhat agree with Truhan. I take all this new material portraying the characters in this and that as somewhat "tainted" by Toei writers or what have you.
It sounds completely ridiculous and it probably is, but I personally doubt Toriyama would agree with ultimate Gohan < SS3 Goku, even in BoG.

Back in the manga instead of actually just establishing Goku as the stronger one all along, he doesn't have anyone directly compare Goku to Gotenks and Gohan.
It's only, when the prospect of fighting Super(Evil) Buu comes up, that he has Goku actually admitting inferiority to a guy both Gotenks and Gohan surpassed in strength.
And then later on he has Goku being relieved, when the small one turns up and has Goku refuse to merge, because Buu wasn't anymore either.
The only defining feature of Pure Buu is the fact, that he's the most troublesome/evil one, not that he is strongest, which the anime on the contrary makes a point of several times.

This is what I meant by "tainted" though calling it tainted is a bit silly. When I first read vol. 42, I didn't really concern myself that much with how this little Buu would stack up to the taller one or how it made no sense Gohan and Gotenks weren't brought along, because they were obviously stronger. I don't think it ruins that much, that they put those lines in there, as it's primarily meant to entertain little kids, not for us to nitpick, though perhaps some would question why Goku would want to permanently merge, if he had power exceeding that of Gohan-Buu all along.
It's clear though that lines were added, that made Goku and Pure Buu seem a lot stronger, than they might originally have been intended to be. It's unknown why they would do this, but perhaps they completely bought the premise from the manga, that Goku vs Pure Buu really was the match to decide the fate of the universe and thus concluded, it could only be described as such, if there wasn't anyone else to match Pure Buu's power or that main characters = strongest characters.

To get back to BoG/Super Goku and Vegeta compared to Gotenks and Gohan, it's funny how Gotenks doesn't go Super Saiyan 3 and Gohan was marketed as a Super Saiyan until the movie actually premiered and "corrected" it. I take it the same way as I do Freeza seemingly not powering up against Trunks and Gohan not being at a certain level against Dabra; basically it's done to make other characters look extremely good, Trunks looks like a badass, when he easily disposes of Freeza and Gohan looks like a chump, while Goku and Vegeta look like badasses. It's the same in BoG, where Gohan and Gotenks don't look to be on the level of Vegeta(by Gohan only being SS, at least originally) and Goku(by Gotenks not going SS3 like Goku did).

We have Yusuke Watanabe(it was him, right?) stating that they always intended for it to be corrected later.
To me that just sounds like a bad excuse, not wanting to admit something, but then I'm extremely biased, that I can admit, so due to the lack of better evidence, his statement stands.

The problem for me is that we don't know, what's going on behind the scenes, we don't know, if Toriyama's original script did have Gohan as a Super Saiyan and it really was changed by the movie staff, due to fan complaints or whatever. We just don't, because what Toriyama wrote is not something accessible to the public unlike the manga. When you have the manga it's easy to compare how the mediums differentiate, like Dodoria/Freeza kills Cargo or Future Trunks went Super Saiyan before/after Gohan's death.
Furthermore we have no idea, what small notes from Toriyama, might or might not have been properly demonstrated. For example in Resurrection [F], during the Z-fighters vs Freeza soldiers segment, we have a Toriyama note, that states Gohan is the strongest(this is before he goes Super Saiyan), yet is that little note elaborated upon in the movie? I mean one could possibly argue, that Gohan seemingly does the best against the soldiers, but concluding he's the strongest of the Z-fighters just based on that? I am not sure.
As a little side note, I was pleasantly surprised, they gave away Toriyama's original script to Resurrection [F], but also curious why that could be? Of course my bias tells me, that it just had to be, because they didn't want fans complaining about lack of Ultimate Gohan and basically prove, that it is not them, who doesn't want Ultimate Gohan to be a thing anymore and thus hinting, that the original Toriyama script for BoG did have Gohan as a Super Saiyan and that's why he initially was portrayed as such in the early ads and promotional material :lol:

In the end, I'm just speculating, basing my views on what I perceive to be his writing style and some interviews he's given, particularly one, when he talked about limits and thus he came up with Super Saiyan.
I believe that Super Saiyan God is the same deal. As Goku stated in the movie, he could never achieve that power on his own and I think Toriyama considered this was a good way for Goku rewriting what his limits were(and have him genuinely surpass Gohan too in the process).
If Toriyama went out of his way to make it look like pre God Goku and Vegeta were stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, then I just wouldn't hold them so highly.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Kaboom » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:51 pm

Assume Goku and Vegeta both got over a hundred times stronger in only a few years just to jumble together an in-universe explanation for a late-game coloring change? No thanks, I'll stick to the out-of-universe explanation for this one. Much less of a headache.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:53 pm

Rocketman wrote:Ok, so why didn't Vegeta increase that much while training to his limits before the Buu arc?
According to my numbers:

Goku took 7 years to unlock 2 NEW SUPER SAIYAN TRANSFORMATIONS and still increased his power by 4x.
Vegeta took 7 years to unlock a new Super Saiyan transformation and tripled his strength.

So not bad.

The Cell Games

Goku
~Base 320,000,000

Gohan
~Base 480,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 240,000,000

The Majin Buu Saga

Goku
~Base 1,200,000,000

Vegeta Pre-Majin
~Base 750,000,000

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Truhan » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:56 pm

When a fan's perception of the franchise is shared, it doesn't matter what the intent was. There was a package of sugar whose intent was for people to tear it apart by pulling the extremes. It was functional, but people knew the good old packages already, whose opening method set a context of use that made the innovation go by unnoticed. If Akira Toriyama had an intent, he didn't communicate it well enough, to the point of feeling like a retcon or inconsistency now, which fans agree with. I'm willing to bet that it's a retcon as well, because what the schemes and numbers pointed to (based on the manga), as well as the statements that didn't contradict them, was that Gohan and Gotenks were stronger than Goku by the power of a hidden potential and a fusion.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:04 pm

Oh and so nobody gets confused about my levels, I follow the theory that Gohan got a final rage boost against Cell. This 'rage' boost is referenced by Vegeta, Goku & Gohan in the Majin Buu Saga. In such scenario's as when Vegeta doesn't know what will happen if Gohan goes into a frenzy, Goku saying Gohan won't loose to anybody if he can tap into his full power like he did against Cell and Gohan saying that if he could become enraged like he was against Cell, he could defeat Fat Buu. To solidify this the Manga makes a clear distinction between Ssj, Ssj2 & Enraged Gohan. Summarily, Perfect Cell powered up like Gohan when he turned Super Perfect, so that infers a 2x increase according to SEG.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Kaboom » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:19 pm

Why are personal made-up power levels being brought into this discussion, anyway? Arbitrary fan-crafted numbers don't have any bearing on the conversation. Why bother pointing out "I think Goku and Vegeta got X times stronger" when anyone else could say, "well I think they only got Y times stronger" and neither one of you would be inherently right or wrong? Drawing some comparison between how much you think Piccolo improved that one time compared to Goku and Vegeta some other time means nothing.

This thread's barely remaining halfway on-topic as it is. If you want to see other people's numbers for the Boo arc compared to Battle of Gods, ask for them in the Power Levels thread.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:44 pm

This post is going to be convoluted, accurate and very inaccurate. Here goes:

1. Gohan, who always had greater dormant power than Goku, is weaker than Goku with his dormant powers released beyond its natural limits.

2. Gotenks, who was implied to have the power to take on Fat Boo in Super Saiyan, is weaker than Goku. Gotenks trains in the rosat and his Super Saiyan is still weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Gotenks acquires the power of Super Saiyan 3, but is still significantly weaker than Goku because he's a crappy fusion of hybrids.

3. Super Boo is on-par with Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, and Gotenks is said to be the strongest warrior he's fought up to that point. The same Goku that's stronger than Gohan and Gotenks admitted inferiority to this Boo in particular. He put the fight back into Gohan's hands because he wanted to give him a chance.

4. Boo tells Gohan he didn't absorb him because he wanted competition. This is precisely the reason why he absorbed Gohan instead of Goku. Gohan Boo made it clear that Goku was nothing and even gave him a chance to use fusion, so he didn't seem to think much of Goku, but whatever. While inside of Boo, Goku made it clear that he was willing to permanently merge just to beat Super Boo. That's not all. He thought their only chance at winning would be if they're able to revert him to Fat Boo. Still, Goku is stronger than Gohan regardless, which means he's stronger than Super Boo.

5. Goku was smaller than a flea, so he took that into consideration. He somehow thought he could generate enough power to blow a huge hole through Boo. Hell, Goku even thought it was a good enough bluff to scare him. So being that tiny couldn't have hampered his power that much from his perspective, right? Right? Especially since Boo is the one who tells them how small and powerless they are. Goku might've also been worried that Boo might digest them and poop them out, so that's why he wanted to merge. Sounds reasonable to me...how about you?

6. Goku says "We did it!" and says they can manage something when Boo reverted to Kid Boo. This was after he and Vegeta looked a bit worried that Boo's power was increasing. Most people say it's an assumption that Boo's power went down. If they can manage something now, I believe that implies they couldn't manage the situation beforehand, but I'm clueless. So yes, Goku was celebrating that they made Boo stronger when the point was to make him weaker. He's a Saiyan...they all crave a strong opponent to fight. Super Boo was the exception because they were inside of his body...and Goku didn't want to go outside because he was worried they'd have to engage him being the size of an ant. Boo's attention span sucks enough as it is, so how he'd be able to sense or see a being the size of an ant with little to no power...I have no idea.

7. Goku and Vegeta underestimated Kid Boo, but he still wasn't enough of an issue to merge. When the Kaioshin's are questioning the idiocy of the Saiyans, Goku says that "Boo is no longer merged either" when explaining they want to fight under their own power. Now, I could be way off, but wouldn't that imply that Boo was utilizing additional power while merged? That's how I always read that. I've also read that Goku's simply saying "Boo is alone, so it's more fair to fight him now", even though he's far more powerful alone than he was..while merged? Gotta admit, that's the best answer I've read on the matter. Super Boo was a weakling compared to Goku, but since he was technically merged (Keep in mind that Goku has no idea Super Boo was created through an absorption), it made more sense to permanently merge just to fight him.

8. Kid Boo is the last boss. The idea of him being more powerful than the previous Boo's is blasphemy (even though Gohan and Gotenks Boo are an exception for some reason) and takes away from the final battle. Goku says he wanted the new generation to handle Boo, but they obviously couldn't. Goku says he's going to go all-out, so he's been holding-back the entire time. Yes, even when he tells Fat Boo that he's not used to the form, he somehow was able to suppress it down to about 30% of its actual power output. That other 70% is what places him above Gohan, Gotenks, and Super Boo. So the simple answer is that Goku is the strongest because he's been holding-back the entire time. He's lied about everything else this entire time, why not this? Gohan's energy wasn't enough to complete the Genki Dama and it's implied Super Saiyan 3 could wipe him out with his power alone. Don't give me that "Genki" crap. Chi is Chi, and Gohan's couldn't measure up.

9) Goku says the entire universe would've been history had they not stopped Kid Boo with the Genki Dama. This was after suggesting both Gohan and Gotenks come to fight. What does this mean? Well, had Kid Boo went to earth and fought Gohan at a later time, he'd have been pulp along with his fused brother. Sure, there's a chance Boo could blow up the earth, but there's a chance he'd teleport there and challenge the guy with the biggest power as well. Goku thinks training so they won't lose again means Kid Boo was more powerful, even though Goku and Vegeta seem to think Goku could wipe him out with enough power after their equal battle. Goku can read minds, so why can't he see the future?

10) Goku is #1. This was mentioned back in the Boo saga by Vegeta (who likely didn't sense Gohan or Gotenks based on the fact that he's unaware of the things that were taking place) who would know better than anyone. In Super, Vegeta not only says Goku's #1 after defeating Kid Boo, but also calls him the strongest Saiyan. Don't like it? Sucks for you. Goku's always been the strongest and he'll continue to be the strongest. Vegeta's already considered himself #2, so he's also made a huge leap in power. Think about it: Vegeta (with his powers released beyond its limits) went from weaker than Fat Boo to stronger or as strong as Gohan relatively fast. Gohan's a relic of the past. Let's just leave him where he belongs.

I hope I was able to clear some things up on the matter. Goku's the strongest and has always been the strongest. Deal with it 8)
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:53 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:5. Goku was smaller than a flea, so he took that into consideration. He somehow thought he could generate enough power to blow a huge hole through Boo. Hell, Goku even thought it was a good enough bluff to scare him. So being that tiny couldn't have hampered his power that much from his perspective, right? Right? Especially since Boo is the one who tells them how small and powerless they are. Goku might've also been worried that Boo might digest them and poop them out, so that's why he wanted to merge. Sounds reasonable to me...how about you?

6. Goku says "We did it!" and says they can manage something when Boo reverted to Kid Boo. This was after he and Vegeta looked a bit worried that Boo's power was increasing. Most people say it's an assumption that Boo's power went down. If they can manage something now, I believe that implies they couldn't manage the situation beforehand, but I'm clueless. So yes, Goku was celebrating that they made Boo stronger when the point was to make him weaker. He's a Saiyan...they all crave a strong opponent to fight. Super Boo was the exception because they were inside of his body...and Goku didn't want to go outside because he was worried they'd have to engage him being the size of an ant. Boo's attention span sucks enough as it is, so how he'd be able to sense or see a being the size of an ant with little to no power...I have no idea.
Those were the best ones, :lol:
I hope I was able to clear some things up on the matter. Goku's the strongest and has always been the strongest. Deal with it 8)
Damn right :P

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Truhan » Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:36 pm

I can tackle Buu's transformations if we decide to keep things rational and use numbers to represent how much power is added or removed, like multipliers, but I'm not going to set his power level in stone. In case we're talking about Buff Buu shape shifting into Kid Buu with no power gain:

Mr. Buu (0.25x) < Fat Buu (0.5x) = Super Buu (0.5x) < Buff Buu (1x) = Kid Buu (1x) < Evil Buu (2x), because Evil Buu's power has never been measured, and Kid Buu's was kept from Buff Buu, who was stronger than Super Buu. However, we'd have to accept that Fat Buu was as strong as Super Buu, because when you take (divide) the multiplier of the former by the that of the latter, you get Kid Buu's.

Alternatively, we could consider that Kid Buu gained power over Buff Buu, which changes things to this:
Mr. Buu (0.125x) < Fat Buu (0.25x) = Super Buu (0.25x) < Buff Buu (0.5x) < Kid Buu (1x) < Evil Buu (2x), which makes Evil Buu the strongest form, in a sequence that still won't change how Super Buu and Fat Buu are equal. Adding the Kaioshins may come with a few surprises.

Here's my favourite version of it, by considering Kid Buu and Super Buu as equals, with a few extras:
Dai Kaioshin (0.125x) < Mr. Buu (0.5x) < Fat Buu (1x) < South Kaioshin (2x) < Super Buu (4x) = Kid Buu (4x) < Buff Buu (8x) = Evil Buu (8x), and this time Fat Buu adds as much as he takes, for Super Buu to have turned into Kid Buu. Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin and turned into Fat Buu, so he was suppressed, and he is the strongest along with Evil Buu.

NEXT: are the SSJ and Fusion multipliers related to Buu, in case we decide which one of these should be true.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:36 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:This post is going to be convoluted, accurate and very inaccurate. Here goes:

1. Gohan, who always had greater dormant power than Goku, is weaker than Goku with his dormant powers released beyond its natural limits.

2. Gotenks, who was implied to have the power to take on Fat Boo in Super Saiyan, is weaker than Goku. Gotenks trains in the rosat and his Super Saiyan is still weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Gotenks acquires the power of Super Saiyan 3, but is still significantly weaker than Goku because he's a crappy fusion of hybrids.

3. Super Boo is on-par with Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, and Gotenks is said to be the strongest warrior he's fought up to that point. The same Goku that's stronger than Gohan and Gotenks admitted inferiority to this Boo in particular. He put the fight back into Gohan's hands because he wanted to give him a chance.

4. Boo tells Gohan he didn't absorb him because he wanted competition. This is precisely the reason why he absorbed Gohan instead of Goku. Gohan Boo made it clear that Goku was nothing and even gave him a chance to use fusion, so he didn't seem to think much of Goku, but whatever. While inside of Boo, Goku made it clear that he was willing to permanently merge just to beat Super Boo. That's not all. He thought their only chance at winning would be if they're able to revert him to Fat Boo. Still, Goku is stronger than Gohan regardless, which means he's stronger than Super Boo.

5. Goku was smaller than a flea, so he took that into consideration. He somehow thought he could generate enough power to blow a huge hole through Boo. Hell, Goku even thought it was a good enough bluff to scare him. So being that tiny couldn't have hampered his power that much from his perspective, right? Right? Especially since Boo is the one who tells them how small and powerless they are. Goku might've also been worried that Boo might digest them and poop them out, so that's why he wanted to merge. Sounds reasonable to me...how about you?

6. Goku says "We did it!" and says they can manage something when Boo reverted to Kid Boo. This was after he and Vegeta looked a bit worried that Boo's power was increasing. Most people say it's an assumption that Boo's power went down. If they can manage something now, I believe that implies they couldn't manage the situation beforehand, but I'm clueless. So yes, Goku was celebrating that they made Boo stronger when the point was to make him weaker. He's a Saiyan...they all crave a strong opponent to fight. Super Boo was the exception because they were inside of his body...and Goku didn't want to go outside because he was worried they'd have to engage him being the size of an ant. Boo's attention span sucks enough as it is, so how he'd be able to sense or see a being the size of an ant with little to no power...I have no idea.

7. Goku and Vegeta underestimated Kid Boo, but he still wasn't enough of an issue to merge. When the Kaioshin's are questioning the idiocy of the Saiyans, Goku says that "Boo is no longer merged either" when explaining they want to fight under their own power. Now, I could be way off, but wouldn't that imply that Boo was utilizing additional power while merged? That's how I always read that. I've also read that Goku's simply saying "Boo is alone, so it's more fair to fight him now", even though he's far more powerful alone than he was..while merged? Gotta admit, that's the best answer I've read on the matter. Super Boo was a weakling compared to Goku, but since he was technically merged (Keep in mind that Goku has no idea Super Boo was created through an absorption), it made more sense to permanently merge just to fight him.

8. Kid Boo is the last boss. The idea of him being more powerful than the previous Boo's is blasphemy (even though Gohan and Gotenks Boo are an exception for some reason) and takes away from the final battle. Goku says he wanted the new generation to handle Boo, but they obviously couldn't. Goku says he's going to go all-out, so he's been holding-back the entire time. Yes, even when he tells Fat Boo that he's not used to the form, he somehow was able to suppress it down to about 30% of its actual power output. That other 70% is what places him above Gohan, Gotenks, and Super Boo. So the simple answer is that Goku is the strongest because he's been holding-back the entire time. He's lied about everything else this entire time, why not this? Gohan's energy wasn't enough to complete the Genki Dama and it's implied Super Saiyan 3 could wipe him out with his power alone. Don't give me that "Genki" crap. Chi is Chi, and Gohan's couldn't measure up.

9) Goku says the entire universe would've been history had they not stopped Kid Boo with the Genki Dama. This was after suggesting both Gohan and Gotenks come to fight. What does this mean? Well, had Kid Boo went to earth and fought Gohan at a later time, he'd have been pulp along with his fused brother. Sure, there's a chance Boo could blow up the earth, but there's a chance he'd teleport there and challenge the guy with the biggest power as well. Goku thinks training so they won't lose again means Kid Boo was more powerful, even though Goku and Vegeta seem to think Goku could wipe him out with enough power after their equal battle. Goku can read minds, so why can't he see the future?

10) Goku is #1. This was mentioned back in the Boo saga by Vegeta (who likely didn't sense Gohan or Gotenks based on the fact that he's unaware of the things that were taking place) who would know better than anyone. In Super, Vegeta not only says Goku's #1 after defeating Kid Boo, but also calls him the strongest Saiyan. Don't like it? Sucks for you. Goku's always been the strongest and he'll continue to be the strongest. Vegeta's already considered himself #2, so he's also made a huge leap in power. Think about it: Vegeta (with his powers released beyond its limits) went from weaker than Fat Boo to stronger or as strong as Gohan relatively fast. Gohan's a relic of the past. Let's just leave him where he belongs.

I hope I was able to clear some things up on the matter. Goku's the strongest and has always been the strongest. Deal with it 8)
So what you get from all of this, is that Goku's full power against Pure Boo is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, but suppressed SSJ3 Goku against Fat Boo is weaker than them? I won't deny that possibility, but damn, the Boo saga was horribly written in terms of consistency. If this truly is the case, then Gotenks SSJ being able to handle Fat boo holds no merit.

The Boo saga contradicts itself. Like you said, Goku is apparently weaker than Gohan and Super boo as implied in his body. Yet implies that Gohan and Gotenks would not be able to do anything if Pure boo would have beaten them. That the Earth would be finished. That they need to train some more in order to be ready for a possible Pure boo return. Why say that when they should already be ready with Gohan/Gotenks in the first place? Imo. I don't think the whole "Gohan would beat him, but Boo would blow up the Earth first and kill everyone" wouldn't hold any merit seeing as how Goku directly states afterwards that they need to train and be ready next time. Especially since Gohan's power is at the least, in the realm of SSJ3 power when that's the power than Boo was obsessed over when searching for Goku and Vegeta.
Last edited by OWmyDragonBallz on Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:36 pm

Many parts of the Boo saga just don't make sense. It's hard to come up with a consistent conclusion when the story itself is inconsistent.

I guess the best answer is that Goku was holding-back the entire time. He did lie about being unable to stop Fat Boo (though Piccolo kinda thought it was BS), so it's easy to just assume he lied his way through the Boo saga. I don't mind that Goku is regarded as the strongest, but I'm not going to act like the Boo saga didn't go out of its way to establish that he wasn't, either.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:49 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:That they need to train some more in order to be ready for a possible Pure boo return. Why say that when they should already be ready with Gohan/Gotenks in the first place?
Because Goku was only referencing he and Vegeta with that statement, not Gohan/Gotenks.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:59 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:That they need to train some more in order to be ready for a possible Pure boo return. Why say that when they should already be ready with Gohan/Gotenks in the first place?
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5 wrote: Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
If worse comes to worse, as in, if Gohan and Gotenks are dead again, they should train so that they can defeat Pure Boo even if they go one-on-one.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:53 pm

The part of fighting one-on-one I can see it is presented in regards to Goku and Vegeta. But what Goku meant by "everyone else"? Why assume he was excluding Gohan and the others from that sentiment?

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:28 pm

Do you mean when he said "everyone else would have been done in." ? That's explainable. Gotenks or Gohan can't stop a planet buster on the fly. Pure Boo runs on instinct, he would've destroyed the Earth without any warning had Vegeta not stopped him the first time. If he blows up Earth before Gohan or Gotenks have time to do anything, then they're done in.

That doesn't necessitate Pure Boo being stronger than Gohan.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:54 pm

That explanation would require Goku to assume Gohan is too incompetent to stop someone like Freeza or Cell if they are up to destroy the planet where the fight happens. Sounds very unlikely in my perspective, but okay.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:04 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:That explanation would require Goku to assume Gohan is too incompetent to stop someone like Freeza or Cell if they are up to destroy the planet where the fight happens. Sounds very unlikely in my perspective, but okay.
Goku probably remembers Gohan failing to stop Cell, before it cost Goku his life, even though Goku warned him :P

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:05 pm

Pure Boo wouldn't have to engage in battle with Pure Boo. If Pure Boo appears on the opposite side of Earth, or just blows up the planet from outer space, then obviously Gohan wouldn't be able to stop him, regardless of incompetence or not.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:52 pm

I'm not saying this scenario is impossible, but to think Goku thought about that much inconvenient and unlucky situation... The way I see, he included himself, Vegeta, Gohan etc, all the Z-Fighters that have been fighting evil guys until then. Boo was defeating everyone of the good guys. Goku sounds like Mr. Satan and good Boo were special gifts from the chance and in a way they turned out to be new reinforcements to the Dragon Team. That could mean Goku probably didn't think about the events that would happen after the fight in the Kaioshin realm, but instead a scenario where he was the last Z-Fighter left to be killed.
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:07 pm

I am fine if you interpret it like that, I just wanted to point out that the statement is not concrete evidence supporting Pure Boo's superiority.

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