Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Truhan]

Jeez, I was on a roll trying to prove that it only makes sense for Kid Buu and Super Buu to be equal, with mathematical predictions in a franchise that has cared about these things before, so far as to make SSJ Goku 50x stronger than Freeza (a perfectly round number). People aren't so accepting of these, to the point of ignoring how Mystic Gohan would only be twice as strong as Goku's SSJ3 multiplier, whatever his base power level. If Freeza was allowed to grow in 4 months, then why couldn't Goku train to close that gap, while Gohan would get weaker at the same time?

[supercat]

I think by the time Kid Buu emerged, the situation had spiraled so far downwards that Goku felt it would be unwise to solely count on the younger generation.

Let's look at it this way, he's well aware of the numerous times that the kids have failed against forms of Buu that were substantially weaker than them. He knows that Gotenks totally blew it with Majin Buu, and then miserably failed again with Super Buu, despite having a decent advantage in power. The icing on the cake was probably when an insanely powerful Ultimate Gohan wasn't even able to finish off a villain that was worlds below him.

[Hitiro]

Jeez, I was on a roll trying to prove that it only makes sense for Kid Buu and Super Buu to be equal, with mathematical predictions in a franchise that has cared about these things before, so far as to make SSJ Goku 50x stronger than Freeza (a perfectly round number). People aren't so accepting of these, to the point of ignoring how Mystic Gohan would only be twice as strong as Goku's SSJ3 multiplier, whatever his base power level. If Freeza was allowed to grow in 4 months, then why couldn't Goku train to close that gap, while Gohan would get weaker at the same time?

Freeza had never trained in his life so it would be much easier for him to gain massive increases in power in shorter amounts of time. But Goku and Gohan would have to work for a long time to get any significant increases due to how trained their bodies are. Goku and Vegeta still took 7 years to surpass Gohan's strength at the Cell Games and they didn't surpass it by much, excluding of course any additional transformations that would give them the lead. Even if we assume that Gohan was only 2x stronger than Goku by simply looking at how long it took for Goku to surpass Gohan since the Cell Games, and only by a bit mind you, then Goku is going to need more than 4-5 years unless he has found some new training method that gives him incredible gains. The only method for Goku and Vegeta to get strong, and fast, these days is by fighting with powerful opponents because Akira Toriyama states Goku should quickly close the gap between himself and Beerus the more he fights.

I'm not saying this scenario is impossible, but to think Goku thought about that much inconvenient and unlucky situation... The way I see, he included himself, Vegeta, Gohan etc, all the Z-Fighters that have been fighting evil guys until then. Boo was defeating everyone of the good guys. Goku sounds like Mr. Satan and good Boo were special gifts from the chance and in a way they turned out to be new reinforcements to the Dragon Team. That could mean Goku probably didn't think about the events that would happen after the fight in the Kaioshin realm, but instead a scenario where he was the last Z-Fighter left to be killed.

But if you take it like Goku was on about more than him and Vegeta then you would have to ignore a few facts.

1. Goku said he could beat Pure Boo at full power, if this is true for him then by extension Gotenks and Gohan should also be able to do this because they had been established as stronger by the simple fact that Goku thought he couldn't win against Evil Boo without fusion. Which would make the argument that Goku was talking about everyone redundant. It would only make sense in his case because SSJ3 was not reliable and he couldn't output his full power.

2. Goku stated he thought Vegeta was on about bringing the kids to beat Pure Boo. Further reinforcing that they could do the job.

If you just go with him talking about himself and Vegeta it makes more sense.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He had to have been referring to the others as well. He says "We and everyone else", so even if it makes more sense to be about Vegeta and himself, Goku is still talking about everyone being done in by Boo. The way the quote is presented, the universe would've been doomed had they not finished Kid Boo there.

[Captain Space]

He had to have been referring to the others as well. He says "We and everyone else", so even if it makes more sense to be about Vegeta and himself, Goku is still talking about everyone being done in by Boo. The way the quote is presented, the universe would've been doomed had they not finished Kid Boo there.

The universe would've been doomed because Goku, Vegeta (both reliable-ish at this point) and Good Buu (able to drain his counterpart's stamina in hand-to-hand, sort of) would've all been gone, since they'd deliberately gone with the Genki-dama plan over summoning the kids to fight under their supervision. The kids would once again be the only hope, and they'd already proven their inability to finish even a form of Buu weaker than them.

The line still works if Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, wouldn't that same logic apply to them if they were summoned to fight Kid Boo?

I dunno. The way I see it, it implies there would've been no one left to stop Kid Boo. Kid Boo could just blow up the world...but he could also teleport to the biggest source of power just like he did to Goku and Vegeta.

[Captain Space]

Well, wouldn't that same logic apply to them if they were summoned to fight Kid Boo?

I dunno. The way I see it, it implies there would've been no one left to stop Kid Boo. Kid Boo could just blow up the world...but he could also teleport to the biggest source of power just like he did to Goku and Vegeta.

I mean, I'm not saying that interpretation isn't also valid; it certainly is.

I mean, if the kids were summoned, they'd be fighting alongside Goku and Vegeta, guided by them, therefore less likely to make mistakes. I dunno, it's just personally the interpretation that makes the Buu saga make more sense to me, but I understand the other side of things for sure.

[Truhan]

Freeza had never trained in his life so it would be much easier for him to gain massive increases in power in shorter amounts of time. But Goku and Gohan would have to work for a long time to get any significant increases due to how trained their bodies are. Goku and Vegeta still took 7 years to surpass Gohan's strength at the Cell Games and they didn't surpass it by much, excluding of course any additional transformations that would give them the lead. Even if we assume that Gohan was only 2x stronger than Goku by simply looking at how long it took for Goku to surpass Gohan since the Cell Games, and only by a bit mind you, then Goku is going to need more than 4-5 years unless he has found some new training method that gives him incredible gains. The only method for Goku and Vegeta to get strong, and fast, these days is by fighting with powerful opponents because Akira Toriyama states Goku should quickly close the gap between himself and Beerus the more he fights.

What I meant was that Gohan's potential was not a multiplier, but a fixed value he could tap onto anytime. If Gohan's power should range between his base level and that of his potential unleashed, the stronger he got, the less the increase. However, Gohan was shown not using it, by transforming into SSJ in RoF, so there is a chance that he either grew to surpass it with a 50x multiplier (SSJ transformation), or that access to his potential was limited. For him to be twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku (800 times his base power level) with his SSJ transformation, which should be equal to his potential unleashed, he would need to be 25x less powerful than a SSJ3 at base (800/50), and 16x more powerful than Goku at base. These numbers don't seem exaggerated, considering that Freeza and Goku had a much bigger difference when they first fought. I think this just goes to show how big increases aren't impossible later on.

[h0kuten]

If worse comes to worse isn't a reference to whether or not Gohan or Gotenks are dead again, they were revived, and clearly doing quite well prior to the events of the spirit bomb.

The interpretation is clearly fan speculation.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

So instead of actually refuting it, you just call it fan speculation. Valid argument, as always.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

So instead of actually refuting it, you just call it fan speculation. Valid argument, as always.

Why not Goku just say "Gohan and Gotenks could end this in the blink of an eye, but if the worse comes to worse, then you and I will train and be ready". But he didn't say that. I'm not denying that the Evil Boo portion of events establish Goku's inferiority, but the Pure boo portions conflict with it. The Boo saga was badly written as Toriyama's editor, Fuyuto Takeda was very soft on him at that time. I think the argument can go both ways. But the Goku > Gohan interpretation can be backed up by DB Super when Vegeta establishes that he is second strongest next to Goku, which is only 6 months after Boo saga.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Why not Goku just say "Gohan and Gotenks could end this in the blink of an eye, but if the worse comes to worse, then you and I will train and be ready". But he didn't say that. I'm not denying that the Evil Boo portion of events establish Goku's inferiority, but the Pure boo portions conflict with it. The Boo saga was badly written as Toriyama's editor, Fuyuto Takeda was very soft on him at that time. I think the argument can go both ways. But the Goku > Gohan interpretation can be backed up by DB Super when Vegeta establishes that he is second strongest next to Goku.

The 'Pure Boo portion' doesn't conflict with the 'Evil Boo portion' of the story because the latter portion is filled with direct statements outright showing Goku's inferiority to Pure Boo. The former section has no direct statements and one statement that is subjective, which people will twist / force their interpretation for it to mean Pure Boo is stronger than Gotenks and Gohan.

Notice how the evidence for Gohan and Gotenks' superiority is based on multiple direct statements (Goku saying Gotenks will be stronger than him multiple times, Piccolo saying Boo has never fought someone as strong as Gotenks, Boo only saying Gohan surpassed him and not Goku, Goku saying 3 times he'd die to Evil Boo), and the 'evidence' supporting Goku is a non-direct statement, that is not definitive, interpreted in a way to discredit all of the mention statements.

[h0kuten]

Direct statements?

Statements:

a) Goku says fusion will be enough to defeat Buu
Conclusion: Is it proven? No.

b) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him.
Conclusion: He said the same about Fat Buu.

c) Piccolo doesn't doubt Gotenks' power.
Conclusion: Doesn't mean he has enough power. Speed doesn't correlate with strength.

Summary: Gotenks is over-rated.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

a) Goku says fusion will be enough to defeat Buu
Conclusion: Is it proven? No.

And the reason it's there if it's wrong is: ______________

b) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him.
Conclusion: He said the same about Fat Buu.

This has been explained already. A viable explanation is that Goku expected Boo to further power up, hence his comment about Boo's Ki being 'like a lie'. He only admits he could've beat Fat Boo after Fat Boo was gone, meaning Goku could confirm Fat Boo wouldn't get stronger.

How does this discredit Goku saying fusion would beat Boo?

c) Piccolo doesn't doubt Gotenks' power.
Conclusion: Doesn't mean he has enough power. Speed doesn't correlate with strength.

So... Piccolo knowing Gotenks doesn't have enough power to beat Fat Boo... so he decides to not comment on it, and not do anything about it? Is he a homicidal idiot? How does that speed tidbit help your argument at all? (BTW, speed is always shown to correlate with power unless specifically noted otherwise. Otherwise, the stronger fighter wouldn't constantly be too fast for the weaker fighter.)

[h0kuten]

Those three statements are open to interpretation. That's all I have to say on the matter.

We have crossed this road a hundred times and so not feel like rehashing old arguments.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What isn't open to interpretation is the fact that Gotenks was going to fight Boo the next day. Piccolo says it.

Once Boo changes into Super Boo, Piccolo makes it clear that they'd need to train in the rosat because they're not strong enough.

Super Saiyan Gotenks was strong enough to beat Fat Boo or at least challenge him. If he wasn't, Piccolo would've most likely told him to train in the rosat like he did with Super Boo.

[h0kuten]

The fight didn't actually happen, therefore it's illogical to deduce Gotenks is stronger without actually feats to back it up. Character speculation also falls short of validity because Goku 'ain't never tried it out', and makes it abundantly clear he wanted to give the younger generation a chance at saving the world
regardless of whether or not they could have actually saved it, in the end they fail and Goku has to once again clean up their mess.

rPiccolo makes it clear Super Buu can sense Chi whereas Fat Buu can't. All the Z-Warriors would die regardless if Gotenks was truly stronger or not.

Piccolo tells Gotenks Base to train and train for his fight with Fat Buu, despite showing (in the Androids Arc) he knows how powerful a Ssj should be. Also, Goku bought them a few days by stalling Buu and telling them in a few days a fighter stronger would fight him. Piccolo asks how Goku could know Fat Buu won't destroy the Earth before than, well Goku says he told Buu someone 'stronger than himself' would come. So the 'stronger than himself' statement is open to interpretation and Goku quite clearly used it to 'stall Buu & to give the younger generation a chance' to save the earth.

Once again, his fight with Fat Buu was going to happen because they would run out of time, so whether or not Gotenks was strong enough or not, the fight would have went down.

Don't try and use Gotenks wanting to fight Buu than and there as proof that he's strong enough, it isn't.

I don't like typing this much, so this is all I will say on the matter.

But as I said, it's open to interpretation.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The fight didn't actually happen, therefore it's illogical to deduce Gotenks is stronger without actually feats to back it up. Character speculation also falls short of validity because Goku 'ain't never tried it out', and makes it abundantly clear he wanted to give the younger generation a chance at saving the world
regardless of whether or not they could have actually saved it, in the end they fail and Goku has to once again clean up their mess.

Can Piccolo accurately gauge power? Because if he thinks Super Saiyan Gotenks is incredible enough to the point where he only wants to test his speed, then it means he has the necessary power to fight Boo. The same Piccolo makes it clear that Base Gotenks would get rolled by Boo, so he had no trouble sensing him there. Unless you think Piccolo turned off his ability to sense or something, statements in this instance are more than enough to get the point across.

Piccolo makes it clear Super Buu can sense Chi whereas Fat Buu can't. All the Z-Warriors would die regardless if Gotenks was truly stronger or not.

His ability to sense Chi isn't the issue. His new power and improved body is.

Piccolo tells Gotenks Base to train and train for his fight with Fat Buu, despite showing (in the Androids Arc) he knows how powerful a Ssj should be. Also, Goku bought them a few days by stalling Buu and telling them in a few days a fighter stronger would fight him. Piccolo asks how Goku could know Fat Buu won't destroy the Earth before than, well Goku says he told Buu someone 'stronger than himself' would come. So the 'stronger than himself' statement is open to interpretation and Goku quite clearly used it to 'stall Buu & to give the younger generation a chance' to save the earth.

Just because he knows how strong the Super Saiyans were in a previous saga doesn't mean he'd know how strong a merged Super Saiyan would be. Either way you look at it, Super Saiyan Gotenks had incredible power and Piccolo wanted to make sure his movement complimented his power. Even if you don't think he's stronger than Goku, he has to be within his realm of power for the idea to make any sense. By this point, it's made clear that no Super Saiyan 2 could do anything to Boo, so Super Saiyan Gotenks is easily Super Saiyan 3 tier.

Once again, his fight with Fat Buu was going to happen because they would run out of time, so whether or not Gotenks was strong enough or not, the fight would have went down.

Right. And my point is Super Saiyan Gotenks was strongly implied to have enough power to fight Boo.

Don't try and use Gotenks wanting to fight Buu than and there as proof that he's strong enough, it isn't.

Don't need to. Piccolo already shows that he's strong enough based on what he says.

[h0kuten]

It’s debatable whether or not Piccolo can accurately sense Chi in the Majin Buu Saga. He made an estimation regarding Majin Vegeta’s Ssj2 tier power, but Vegeta confirms his estimate of Goku’s Ssj2 power. As Kaboom put it, it’s like Piccolo has a hard time accurately sensing levels of that magnitude because it would be like standing below two sky-scrapers and looking up; trying to determine which is taller.

There was no confirmation that Gotenks was strong enough and Piccolo clearly wanted Gotenks to train and train just a few short hours ago. Again, Piccolo wants Gotenks to train for his fight. The Viz translation even has Piccolo saying Gotenks is still inferior in every way.

Piccolo makes a clear distinction that Buu can sense Chi and locate the tower, giving Gotenks no time to train and prepare for the fight. With Buu sensing Chi, everybody is in danger, so please don’t say this wasn’t a factor.

If Piccolo can’t accurately sense how strong a Super Saiyan should be than Goku wouldn’t know either, he’s never seen a fused Saiyan transform into a Super Saiyan, so you’re logic collapses in on itself and makes more issues.

Nothing supports Gotenks being in the realm of Ssj3 tier power. A) He wasn’t sensed from the World of The Kai’s, b) Fat Buu is only 2.5x Teen Gohan Ssj2, so Gotenks wouldn’t even have to be ‘half’ of Goku Ssj3 to defeat him.

Goku over-estimated Fat Buu by believing he couldn’t defeat him. So it’s clearly an over estimation to believe no Ssj2 could defeat him. Majin Vegeta almost did by himself and all that was required was someone to clean up the mess.
Hercule was able to fight Kid Buu it doesn’t mean he’s Super Saiyan 3 tier.

Piccolo says the kids need to train and train, and use their entire remaining day to prepare for the fight. When Fat Buu becomes Super Buu, he’s now able to sense Chi and therefore the boys are not able to train and train for their fight. Hence why Piccolo sends them in early, to make up for their lack of time to prepare for the said fight.

Nothing determines Gotenks Pre-ROST was stronger than Fat Buu, we have implications that suggest he still needed training to defeat him.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It’s debatable whether or not Piccolo can accurately sense Chi in the Majin Buu Saga. He made an estimation regarding Majin Vegeta’s Ssj2 tier power, but Vegeta confirms his estimate of Goku’s Ssj2 power. As Kaboom put it, it’s like Piccolo has a hard time accurately sensing levels of that magnitude because it would be like standing below two sky-scrapers and looking up; trying to determine which is taller.

Piccolo doesn't have his best showing in the Boo saga, but I highly doubt he can't accurately sense Chi. He knew that Goku was holding-back while fighting Boo. What he says about Majin Vegeta and Kid Gohan implies that there isn't a huge difference between the two.

There was no confirmation that Gotenks was strong enough and Piccolo clearly wanted Gotenks to train and train just a few short hours ago. Again, Piccolo wants Gotenks to train for his fight. The Viz translation even has Piccolo saying Gotenks is still inferior in every way.

Yeah, because Gotenks is going to gain that much power on Kami's lookout. There wasn't much room for him to grow outside of the rosat, which is why the room was suggested to begin with.

Piccolo makes a clear distinction that Buu can sense Chi and locate the tower, giving Gotenks no time to train and prepare for the fight. With Buu sensing Chi, everybody is in danger, so please don’t say this wasn’t a factor.

Piccolo tells the kids that Boo was overall more powerful than the previous Boo. They weren't going to be defeated by Chi-sensing. Boo locating the lookout simply sped things up. Not like Gotenks was going to make a huge leap in power in that day considering they were taking naps.

If Piccolo can’t accurately sense how strong a Super Saiyan should be than Goku wouldn’t know either, he’s never seen a fused Saiyan transform into a Super Saiyan, so you’re logic collapses in on itself and makes more issues.

Except Goku has a better understanding of what fusion can bring to the table than Piccolo. He saw total weaklings do it in the otherworld, so he'd have an idea of what the kids could produce after seeing their full-power. If anything, the power of Super Saiyan would create a more powerful fusion--which is what's shown.

Nothing supports Gotenks being in the realm of Ssj3 tier power. A) He wasn’t sensed from the World of The Kai’s, b) Fat Buu is only 2.5x Teen Gohan Ssj2, so Gotenks wouldn’t even have to be ‘half’ of Goku Ssj3 to defeat him.

Goku wondered why Boo's Chi was gone and immediately noted that he couldn't sense the fused kids power, either. So he did sense it at some point, or there'd be no point in acknowledging Gotenks to begin with. He's obviously beyond any Super Saiyan 2, so he'd be Super Saiyan 3 tier by default.

Goku over-estimated Fat Buu by believing he couldn’t defeat him.

No. Goku lied because he had an additional transformation up his sleeve. That's why he quickly reverted from Super Saiyan 2 and decided to stall by showing Super Saiyan 3. He would've gotten rolled by Fat Boo in Super Saiyan 2.

So it’s clearly an over estimation to believe no Ssj2 could defeat him.

When Goku and Vegeta both say a team up wouldn't matter, then yes, it means no Super Saiyan 2 can defeat him.

Majin Vegeta almost did by himself and all that was required was someone to clean up the mess.

Guess you agree that Super Saiyan Gotenks is Super Saiyan 3 tier after all. He was close to wiping out Super Boo.

(the H-word) was able to fight Kid Buu it doesn’t mean he’s Super Saiyan 3 tier.

He didn't fight Kid Boo at all. A few light punches knocked him on his ass.

Piccolo says the kids need to train and train, and use their entire remaining day to prepare for the fight. When Fat Buu becomes Super Buu, he’s now able to sense Chi and therefore the boys are not able to train and train for their fight. Hence why Piccolo sends them in early, to make up for their lack of time to prepare for the said fight.

Boo's ability to sense Chi just made Piccolo send them in much quicker. What we know is that Fat Boo didn't require the kids to use the rosat. Goku doesn't even think it's necessary for them to use it...believing it'd be best if they saved it for a later time.

Nothing determines Gotenks Pre-ROST was stronger than Fat Buu, we have implications that suggest he still needed training to defeat him.

Unless you can prove they'd make substantial gains in a day where they're shown taking a nap, they would've been fighting Boo with the same level of power they already displayed.