Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta said both Goku and Kid Boo were far more powerful than he expected. Kid Boo definitely doesn't have Godly power.

[Hitiro]

The quote clearly means if they hadn't stopped Kid Boo then and there, all of them would've been finished. If it was pointless, there'd be no reason for Goku to mention it.

The quote clearly means this because Gohan and Gotenks weren't alive at the time. As Goku says if Boo and Mr. Satan weren't around then both Goku and Vegeta would have died. Without them alive Vegeta wouldn't have come up with the idea of using the Namekian Dragon Balls to bring back Earth and so there would be no one left to stop Boo. So yes, it is a pointless comment. We already know that if they died there would be nobody left to stop Boo.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What? That quote was after Boo was defeated. Gohan and the kids were around.

[Hitiro]

What? That quote was after Boo was defeated. Gohan and the kids were around.

I'm not saying the quote was before they defeated Boo. What he is referencing is the point in time that Gohan and kids weren't around. Because Fat Boo saved them before anybody was wished back. If Fat Boo wasn't there to save Vegeta, which was when the kids weren't alive, then Vegeta would have died followed by Goku and then the wish would have never been made. Thus everyone would have been done in.

[h0kuten]

Piccolo states 'what specifically' increased. Piccolo also never really confirms Gotenks Ssj Pre is strong
enough and preferred to have him train an entire day. Piccolo can 'estimate' how strong a Super Saiyan should be,
but he never changes this perspective. It is only because Super Buu can sense Chi did Piccolo feel the need to
send Gotenks into the ROST early.

Goku says he could defeat Fat Buu 'WAYY' after Super Buu isn't even a part of the story any-more.

That wasn't the case in point. The case in point was Kid Buu would destroy Goku Ssj3 & Vegeta, and not next year,
not next summer, THEN and there he would IT to Earth looking for the next strongest fighter, which would be Gohan.
Kid Buu would resume to solo him and Gotenks, exactly as Goku predicted if he lost.

Goku fights a Kid Buu level opponent in his 'base' form. This increase of power by normal Earth training infers
improvements in excess of 400x over 10 years. So yes, Goku can, and has gotten stronger by normal Earth training.

Battle of Gods has Vegeta performing feats above Gotenks Ssj Post-ROST, that's already an increase of several
hundred times. Dragonball Super is also following everything that happens in Battle of Gods.

Goku said he could beat him if he charges a fully powered attack, which would be his Kamehameha, but it would
require all his energy. The Kamehameha has been shown to be a 1.33x AMP for Goku, so nothing is wrong with Kid
Buu being 1.25x Goku Ssj3. Buu never shows any sign of effort, only against the Genki Dama.

Before you argue they were fighting evenly, show me a scan of Kid Buu fighting Goku with the same effort he
displayed against the Genki Dama.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That doesn't make any sense. There is no point in time. He's telling Vegeta to spare Mr. Boo because he and Mr. Satan helped save the day, which literally just happened.

If Mr. Satan didn't encourage the people of earth to help with their energy and Mr. Boo never got Kid Boo's attention, the Genki Dama would've never been created. It's quite clearly painting a picture of what would've happened had they not stopped Boo.

[Truhan]

Hey, I was just reminded that Kid Buu has God Ki. Apparently Goku and Vegeta couldn't sense him, hence the midget comment, and the fact that Kid Buu's reincarnation fought a God powered base Goku sets the argument in stone.

He doesn't have god ki though. If this were to involve the Kaioushin within Buu, then he and the Pure Evil Buu are the only two that wouldn't have god ki within them. Pure Buu certainly doesn't have any kind of god ki within him whatsoever.

Hey, it was a joke, just to point out how ridiculous we're getting with the whole statement thing. It's not like Akira Toriyama can't write the characters to make mistakes, like he obviously has with Goku and Piccolo measuring Gotenks against Majin Buu. They're not playing the role of a narrator who is explaining stuff that the characters wouldn't be able to, like Fat Buu's split into Evil and Mr. Buu, but of people with their own motivations in different contexts. I can imagine people placing Gotenks above Goku by the power of his statement that Gotenks would be more powerful, until they were proven wrong because of Piccolo's own statement. If people are adding up things to a logical conclusion bit by bit, they are risking themselves to be disappointed when something contradicts their logic, hence why I believe that it's better to sum up things with schemes and values and approach words from authority with skepticism. There's no need to be anxious in wanting to prove a thing.

[Hitiro]

That doesn't make any sense. There is no point in time. He's telling Vegeta to spare Mr. Boo because he and Mr. Satan helped save the day, which literally just happened.

If Mr. Satan didn't encourage the people of earth to help with their energy and Mr. Boo never got Kid Boo's attention, the Genki Dama would've never been created. It's quite clearly painting a picture of what would've happened had they not stopped Boo.

Why would it not be referencing a point in time? Vegeta was saved by Fat Boo appearing. If Fat Boo hadn't of been there then Vegeta would have died then followed by Goku. Obviously with Mr. Satan they are talking about helping with the Genki Dama. But Fat Boo helped by saving Vegeta and then holding off Pure Boo long enough for the Genki Dama to be made. If this hadn't of happened then Pure Boo would have proceeded to kill Vegeta. Then he would have killed a weakened Goku and then there would be nobody left because the Gohan and the kids wouldn't have been brought back to life at this point. How does that not make sense? Literally, if Fat Boo hadn't of appeared the Genki Dama wouldn't have been made. And Earth wouldn't have been restored either. By simple extrapolation if Fat Boo wasn't there to help then the Gohan and the kids would not have been able to do anything because they would have been dead anyway. It is only because Fat Boo was there that the events transpired the way they did. Including the wishing back of Earth and its inhabitants.

[Truhan]

Also, I think we're forgeting that if Vegeta's plan had failed, Gohan's contribution to the Genki-dama had already been made, so Kid Buu would pretty much wipe out a powerless Gohan and Gotenks, from whatever spot of space with a sphere, if necessary.

[Hitiro]

Also, I think we're forgeting that if Vegeta's plan had failed, Gohan's contribution to the Genki-dama had already been made, so Kid Buu would pretty much wipe out a powerless Gohan and Gotenks, from whatever spot of space with a sphere, if necessary.

That's also a possibility I guess but we don't know how him contributing his Genki affected the rest of his Ki. He may still have enough energy to fight Pure Boo. But that wouldn't matter if Pure Boo teleported to Earth on the other side of the planet and threw a Planet destroying blast at the planet. Gohan or the kids would have no way to get there in time to stop the attack.

[h0kuten]

Kid Buu is looking to fight the strongest fighter. He wouldn't teleport to the other side of the planet.

The Genki takes an unspecified amount of Chi from wielders, so it's sheer speculation how much Chi Gohan would still have.

It shouldn't affect Gotenks regardless.

[Hitiro]

Kid Buu is looking to fight the strongest fighter. He wouldn't teleport to the other side of the planet.

Goku and Vegeta were the strongest fighters on Earth yet Boo still threw a blast at the planet to destroy it. Pure Boo is a pretty random character. He doesn't have to fight if he doesn't want to. Like we saw in his first appearance.

The Genki takes an unspecified amount of Chi from wielders, so it's sheer speculation how much Chi Gohan would still have.

The Genki Dama only takes the Genki portion of Ki from a wielder. There are many different subsets to Ki that make up Ki as a whole. As explained by Akira Toriyama.

[Truhan]

The Genki takes an unspecified amount of Chi from wielders, so it's sheer speculation how much Chi Gohan would still have.

Ah, you're right. I forgot that Gohan didn't even power up to Mystic when he made that contribution, just like Goten and Trunks didn't fuse into Gotenks first before lifting their arms. However, Earthlings were almost on their limits... Just goes to show how Gohan and Co. are complete assholes.

[h0kuten]

Kid Buu is looking to fight the strongest fighter. He wouldn't teleport to the other side of the planet.

Goku and Vegeta were the strongest fighters on Earth yet Boo still threw a blast at the planet to destroy it. Pure Boo is a pretty random character. He doesn't have to fight if he doesn't want to. Like we saw in his first appearance.

The Genki takes an unspecified amount of Chi from wielders, so it's sheer speculation how much Chi Gohan would still have.

The Genki Dama only takes the Genki portion of Ki from a wielder. There are many different subsets to Ki that make up Ki as a whole. As explained by Akira Toriyama.

He just came into existence.

Why didn't Kid Buu bust the World of The Kais?

Because he located the strongest fighters.

So no, Kid Buu wouldn't teleport to the other side of the planet just to bust it. After killing Goku & Vegeta Gohan & Gotenks would raise their Chi and have Kid Buu fight them next, only to loose horribly.

[Darkprince410]

Kid Buu is looking to fight the strongest fighter. He wouldn't teleport to the other side of the planet.

We've seen though he doesn't care that much for fighting strong opponents, at least not in comparison to toe other forms of Buu. Whereupon they were showing interest in fighters (even willing to "wait" for strong ones to come around), Pure Buu shows no real regard like that. The fact that his very first action upon forming was to try and destroy the Earth supports what his true intentions are. He only really cares for death, destruction, and torment.

Because he located the strongest fighters.

They were the exact same strength on Kaioushin Kai as they were on Earth, so why would he have interest in them on Kaioushin Kai but not on Earth? If anything, it could be argued that he came to Kaioushin Kai not because they were powerful fighters he wanted to do battle against, but that they were two that eluded him when he destroyed the Earth. They didn't power up or anything between Earth and Kaioushin Kai to make themselves stronger, so him seeing them as strong fighters to do battle against doesn't make sense with him completely ignoring them on Earth.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Why would it not be referencing a point in time? Vegeta was saved by Fat Boo appearing. If Fat Boo hadn't of been there then Vegeta would have died then followed by Goku. Obviously with Mr. Satan they are talking about helping with the Genki Dama. But Fat Boo helped by saving Vegeta and then holding off Pure Boo long enough for the Genki Dama to be made. If this hadn't of happened then Pure Boo would have proceeded to kill Vegeta. Then he would have killed a weakened Goku and then there would be nobody left because the Gohan and the kids wouldn't have been brought back to life at this point. How does that not make sense? Literally, if Fat Boo hadn't of appeared the Genki Dama wouldn't have been made. And Earth wouldn't have been restored either.

You mean Mr. Satan was saved by Mr. Boo appearing, right? Kid Boo had stopped paying attention to Vegeta by that point. So you agree that Mr. Boo's help wasn't simply at a certain point, but pretty much all throughout the creation of the Genki Dama, right? Because everyone else was around by that point.

It doesn't make sense because that's not the point of the quote. You're trying to differentiate their contribution to the battle as if that changes things. He's telling Vegeta to spare Mr. Boo because both he and Mr. Satan participated in defeating Boo. That's it. It doesn't make any sense to reference a part (when the kids weren't around along with the planet) that no longer exists to try and take away from the point. Anyway, you can look at the quote from various angles and still come out with the same meaning.

If Mr. Boo never showed up, they and everyone else would've been finished because the Genki Dama would've never been created.
If Mr. Satan never talked to the people of earth, they and everyone else would've been finished because the Genki Dama wouldn't have had enough energy.
If Mr. Boo never got Kid Boo's attention for as long as he did, they and everyone else would've been finished.
If Goku didn't have his energy restored, they and everyone else would've been finished.

The quote means if they hadn't defeated Kid Boo, they and everyone else would've been finished. You can look at the quote how you want from whatever point you prefer, but the overall message remains the same.

[Hitiro]

He just came into existence.

That should matter why? As we saw from the previous Boo, they still retain the memories of the last Boo.

Why didn't Kid Buu bust the World of The Kais?

As I said, he's pretty random. He is more like an animal in terms of personality than a human. He does what he wants.

Because he located the strongest fighters.

He had already located the strongest fighters when he was on Earth. Why did he feel it necessary to destroy the planet and then go searching for them if he was just looking for the strongest fighters?

So no, Kid Buu wouldn't teleport to the other side of the planet just to bust it. After killing Goku & Vegeta Gohan & Gotenks would raise their Chi and have Kid Buu fight them next, only to loose horribly.

After killing Goku and Vegeta there would be nobody left to fight Boo anyway. If Fat Boo hadn't of shown up the wish to bring back Earth would never have been made. Vegeta was the one who came up with the plan on using the Namekian Dragon Balls to bring back the Earthlings for a Genki Dama. He would have been killed before this idea was proposed. Hence no Gohan or Gotenks. Thus the universe would be doomed.

You mean Mr. Satan was saved by Mr. Boo appearing, right? Kid Boo had stopped paying attention to Vegeta by that point. So you agree that Mr. Boo's help wasn't simply at a certain point, but pretty much all throughout the creation of the Genki Dama, right? Because everyone else was around by that point.

It doesn't make sense because that's not the point of the quote. You're trying to differentiate their contribution to the battle as if that changes things. He's telling Vegeta to spare Mr. Boo because both he and Mr. Satan participated in defeating Boo. That's it. It doesn't make any sense to reference a part (when the kids weren't around along with the planet) that no longer exists to try and take away from the point. Anyway, you can look at the quote from various angles and still come out with the same meaning.

If Mr. Boo never showed up, they and everyone else would've been finished because the Genki Dama would've never been created.
If Mr. Satan never talked to the people of earth, they and everyone else would've been finished because the Genki Dama wouldn't have had enough energy.
If Mr. Boo never got Kid Boo's attention for as long as he did, they and everyone else would've been finished.
If Goku didn't have his energy restored, they and everyone else would've been finished.

The quote means if they hadn't defeated Kid Boo, they and everyone else would've been finished. You can look at the quote how you want from whatever point you prefer, but the overall message remains the same.

Do you honestly think that if Mr. Boo hadn't of appeared that Vegeta still would have been able to wish for the Earth back? That is crazy. If Mr. Boo didn't show up then Pure Boo would have killed Mr. Satan, then he would have gone back to killing Vegeta. And then he would have killed Goku. The kids would have never been brought back. So there is no use in including them in the discussion because they wouldn't have been alive to be useful if Mr. Boo hadn't of been there. So yes. It is referencing a point in time. A point in time where Goku and Vegeta were about to be finished but were saved. And if they were finished then there would be no one left alive to combat Pure Boo.

It is frankly silly to include both Gohan and Gotenks given how the story would have played out without Mr. Boo. Why would they still be viable if Mr. Boo wasn't there? How exactly would they be viable? The quote means that if Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo weren't there then both Goku and Vegeta would have been finished along with with everyone else left in the universe. There is simply no need to assume that everyone also meant Gohan and the kids when, at the time they received help, they wouldn't have been alive.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Thing is, you're just not seeing the big picture.

What we know is both Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan are a big reason why they won. Without the both of them, everyone would've been finished. You're only focusing on Mr. Boo's contribution rather than the entire sequence. We know Mr. Satan is why he was able to get enough power for the Genki Dama. Had he not spoken to the earthlings, everyone would've been finished because Kid Boo would've overpowered the Genki Dama.

We and everyone else=Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Satan, Mr. Boo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and everyone else

Goku makes it a point to differentiate between those on the Kaioshin world and those who weren't.

I don't see a point in trying to separate Gohan and the kids from everyone else when they're obviously apart of it.

[Truhan]

This is getting ridiculous... Learn to base your statements on information sustained by schemes, images, statements and values, and don't feed what seems to be a weakness in direct arguments, which is to have your posts nit picked apart and contradicted (even by yourselves) in a linear fashion. Believe me, there is no formula for what is implied here: that Kid Buu is the strongest and that Gohan and Gotenks are powerless against him.
However, there is a formula that explains Kid Buu and Super Buu being equal, and Gohan being stronger than Gotenks, and the latter being stronger than Goku. Even if it should be contradicted with a DB Super episode, it just goes to show how a canon shared by a community is sometimes better than that of an author.

[Hitiro]

Thing is, you're just not seeing the big picture.

What we know is both Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan are a big reason why they won. Without the both of them, everyone would've been finished. You're only focusing on Mr. Boo's contribution rather than the entire sequence. We know Mr. Satan is why he was able to get enough power for the Genki Dama. Had he not spoken to the earthlings, everyone would've been finished because Kid Boo would've overpowered the Genki Dama.

We and everyone else=Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Satan, Mr. Boo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and everyone else

Goku makes it a point to differentiate between those on the Kaioshin world and those who weren't.

I don't see a point in trying to separate Gohan and the kids from everyone else when they're obviously apart of it.

I am seeing the big picture just fine.

There is no reason to include people who would not have existed had it not been for the efforts of Mr. Satan or Mr. Boo. It really isn't just about Mr. Boo's contribution, though it was still a major factor up until the creation of the Genki Dama.

You can't just include characters that wouldn't have been viable if the efforts of these two individuals didn't come to fruition. It's like saying something like this:

Goku: "If these two weren't here then us, Gohan and the kids would have been done in and then the rest of the universe!"

Vegeta: "If these two weren't here then Gohan and the kids wouldn't have been alive because we would have never made the wish though."

Goku: "No! But you see! We should still include them even if it would have been impossible for them to exist without these two's efforts. So we should still include them for some unrelated reason, just because. I mean, they are alive now aren't they?"

Vegeta: "But they wouldn't have been alive then. So why should we include them?"

Goku: "Because they are alive now!"

^That just doesn't make sense.