Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I am seeing the big picture just fine.

Then you'd realize Mr. Satan's contribution was apart of the reason why they weren't wiped out along with everyone else. Gohan and the kids were around during that.

There is no reason to include people who would not have existed had it not been for the efforts of Mr. Satan or Mr. Boo. It really isn't just about Mr. Boo's contribution, though it was still a major factor up until the creation of the Genki Dama.

There is when the end result was they would've been done in had the two of them not participated in Kid Boo's defeat. Meaning, both are necessary for the universe not being wiped out by Kid Boo.

You can't just include characters that wouldn't have been viable if the efforts of these two individuals didn't come to fruition. It's like saying something like this

Then you're saying they wouldn't have been done in even if Mr. Satan didn't convince the earthlings to give energy. It was a combined effort. Both of their efforts are why everyone wasn't wiped out.

Goku: "If these two weren't here then us, Gohan and the kids would have been done in and then the rest of the universe!"

What's the point of saying Gohan when everyone else gets the same point across?

Vegeta: "If these two weren't here then Gohan and the kids wouldn't have been alive because we would have never made the wish though."

They, however, would've been alive during Mr. Satan's contribution of the Genki Dama. If the Genki Dama plan failed, they still would've been done in regardless because Goku says so.

Goku: "No! But you see! We should still include them even if it would have been impossible for them to exist without these two's efforts. So we should still include them for some unrelated reason, just because. I mean, they are alive now aren't they?"

Vegeta: "But they wouldn't have been alive then. So why should we include them?"

Goku: "Because they are alive now!"

^That just doesn't make sense.

Because you're making more out of the quote than is necessary.

It's simple. If Mr. Boo wasn't around, everyone would've been done in. If Mr. Satan didn't convince the earthlings to share their energy, everyone would've been done in. Same outcome.

[Draconic]

Do people really think that if Kid Buu defeated Goku and Vegeta and returned to an Earth he already destroyed, he wouldn't just destroy it immediately just out of sheer anger and confusion that the planet was restored? Gohan and Gotenks are powerful enough to probably one-shot him, but if he just blasts the Earth away before they can do anything/power up/fuse, they are done in.

Is there anything pointing out to Kid Buu looking to fight the strongest fighters? This is literally the first time I've heard of something like this.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kid Boo is random. He's just as likely to destroy the planet as he is to fall asleep. He never tried to destroy the Kaioshin world, so blowing up the world isn't an automatic reaction.

[Draconic]

Kid Boo is random. He's just as likely to destroy the planet as he is to fall asleep. He never tried to destroy the Kaioshin world, so blowing up the world isn't an automatic reaction.

But he already destroyed Earth once. If he returned and saw it was still there, why lose time and fight anybody else? He would have just blown it up the second he saw he "failed" to destroy it the first time.

[Kaboom]

Gohan and Gotenks already each failed miserably to defeat a form of Boo they had an edge in power over and at their mercy. Doesn't matter if Pure Boo is 10x weaker than Evil Boo, if he fights either powerful half-breed he's just as likely to end up on top thanks to their general incompetence. Factor in his unpredictability and things get even more dangerous.

Heck, him being dramatically weaker than them just makes him more likely to do something desperately absurd. Maybe lingering memories of Gotenks and Gohan's power prompted him to blow up Earth and get rid of them in the first place.

[Draconic]

Gohan and Gotenks already each failed miserably to defeat a form of Boo they had an edge in power over and at their mercy. Doesn't matter if Pure Boo is 10x weaker than Evil Boo, if he fights either powerful half-breed he's just as likely to end up on top thanks to their general incompetence. Factor in his unpredictability and things get even more dangerous.

Heck, him being dramatically weaker than them just makes him more likely to do something desperately absurd. Maybe lingering memories of Gotenks and Gohan's power prompted him to blow up Earth and get rid of them in the first place.

Or worse, absorb them to become even more powerful than before, since he already tricked them once.

That's the thing. There are a lot of ways everybody could have been "done in" if Goku lost that fight, even if Gohan and Gotenks were more powerful than Kid Buu.

[Kaboom]

Or worse, absorb them to become even more powerful than before, since he already tricked them once.

Yeah, that too. Presumably it already happened once before with the South Kaioshin. If Pure Boo similarly got desperate and absorbed Gohan, it wouldn't be much different than when Evil Boo did, and extreme measures like Fusion would become necessary again.

[Draconic]

Or worse, absorb them to become even more powerful than before, since he already tricked them once.

Yeah, that too. Presumably it already happened once before with the South Kaioshin. If Pure Boo similarly got desperate and absorbed Gohan, it wouldn't be much different than when Evil Boo did, and extreme measures like Fusion would become necessary again.

But there would be no one left to fuse. Goku and Vegeta would have been killed, if the Genki Dama wouldn't have worked. Done in.

[h0kuten]

I really don't see Gotenks or Gohan making the same mistake twice. Nor do I believe Kid Buu would randomly blow up planet Earth again without looking for the next strongest fighter to kill, which would be Gohan by default; or Gotenks if you want to argue that the Genki Dama weakened Gohan.

Regardless, if Pure Buu was 10x weaker than either fighter they could simply blitz him. The gap between Pure Buu & said fighters is supposedly far more enormous than the gap between Super Buu & Ultimate Gohan, which may only be up to 30-40% at best.

[Draconic]

I really don't see Gotenks or Gohan making the same mistake twice. Nor do I believe Kid Buu would randomly blow up planet Earth again without looking for the next strongest fighter to kill, which would be Gohan by default; or Gotenks if you want to argue that the Genki Dama weakened Gohan..

Why? Where do you get that idea? There is nothing to back it up.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Boo could absorb them, Boo could blow them to bits, turn them to candy, etc. The quote means all of them would've been done in regardless of how it would've took place.

The new direction of the series strongly implies that Goku is now the strongest. As ridiculous as it may seem, that's what it is. When Beers said Goku couldn't defeat Freeza in his Base form, most people quickly accepted this as fact. I see no reason why things would be any different here.

[Captain Space]

I really don't see Gotenks or Gohan making the same mistake twice. Nor do I believe Kid Buu would randomly blow up planet Earth again without looking for the next strongest fighter to kill, which would be Gohan by default; or Gotenks if you want to argue that the Genki Dama weakened Gohan..

Why? Where do you get that idea? There is nothing to back it up.

I second this. They specifically try and goad Kid Buu with the "don't you want to fight us?" thing when he's born. He completely ignores this and...randomly fires at the Earth, without fighting all the strong people around.

[Draconic]

Boo could absorb them, Boo could blow them to bits, turn them to candy, etc. The quote means all of them would've been done in regardless of how it would've took place.

The new direction of the series strongly implies that Goku is now the strongest. As ridiculous as it may seem, that's what it is. When Beers said Goku couldn't defeat Freeza in his Base form, most people quickly accepted this as fact. I see no reason why things would be any different here.

Goku not being able to defeat Frieza in base didn't contradict anything. Goku now being the strongest does, especially since there is no explication for it. I can accept Frieza powering up to God level in 4 months, because it is explained (poorly or not, it is). Goku being now stronger is not. Not to mention, until now, at least, nothing implies he is the strongest either (before God power-up).

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That goes both ways. He pursued Goku and Vegeta to the Kaioshin world, fell asleep, and only got ready to fight when Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan 3.

He could blow the earth up, but he could also do the above.

Goku not being able to defeat Freeza in base didn't contradict anything. Goku now being the strongest does, especially since there is no explication for it. I can accept Freeza powering up to God level in 4 months, because it is explained (poorly or not, it is). Goku being now stronger is not. Not to mention, until now, at least, nothing implies he is the strongest either (before God power-up).

Actually, it does. Kaioshin is confident he can defeat Freeza with ease, but the manga (as well as the Daizenshuu) shows he was scared of both Yakon and Dabra. If he's scared of Yakon, who Goku can actually fight in Base, then Yakon is stronger than Freeza. Kaioshin also says Base Vegeta was stronger than he imagined.

[Draconic]

That goes both ways. He pursued Goku and Vegeta to the Kaioshin world, fell asleep, and only got ready to fight when Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan 3.

He could blow the earth up, but he could also do the above.

Goku not being able to defeat Freeza in base didn't contradict anything. Goku now being the strongest does, especially since there is no explication for it. I can accept Freeza powering up to God level in 4 months, because it is explained (poorly or not, it is). Goku being now stronger is not. Not to mention, until now, at least, nothing implies he is the strongest either (before God power-up).

Actually, it does. Kaioshin is confident he can defeat Freeza with ease, but the manga (as well as the Daizenshuu) shows he was scared of both Yakon and Dabra. If he's scared of Yakon, who Goku can actually fight in Base, then Yakon is stronger than Freeza. Kaioshin also says Base Vegeta was stronger than he imagined.

Ok, I will admit I am wrong here, BUT I will state that I never took Kaioshin's statements at face value, since he is the most unreliable source of facts in the whole series.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Don't mind me. I'm just experimenting with what's being presented in Super for the time being. I'm beginning to think it's easier just to treat them entirely different from one another. Gohan's dormant power always exceeded Goku's, so there's no reason why he shouldn't be more powerful in the Boo saga.

I guess I'm just trying to understand how Kid Boo can be more powerful than Gohan and Gotenks. The idea of it still makes no sense to me, even if I try to shift my opinion in that direction.

[Hitiro]

I am seeing the big picture just fine.

Then you'd realize Mr. Satan's contribution was apart of the reason why they weren't wiped out along with everyone else. Gohan and the kids were around during that.

Gohan and the kids were not around during that? Because Mr. Satan helped before the Genki Dama part. He started helping when he tried saving Vegeta. At that point Gohan and the kids were still dead.

There is no reason to include people who would not have existed had it not been for the efforts of Mr. Satan or Mr. Boo. It really isn't just about Mr. Boo's contribution, though it was still a major factor up until the creation of the Genki Dama.

There is when the end result was they would've been done in had the two of them not participated in Kid Boo's defeat. Meaning, both are necessary for the universe not being wiped out by Kid Boo.

There isn't because the end result of Boo and Mr. Satan not being there would have been that Goku and Vegeta would have been defeated and Gohan and the kids would still be dead. So there is no reason to include them.

You can't just include characters that wouldn't have been viable if the efforts of these two individuals didn't come to fruition. It's like saying something like this

Then you're saying they wouldn't have been done in even if Mr. Satan didn't convince the earthlings to give energy. It was a combined effort. Both of their efforts are why everyone wasn't wiped out.

I am saying that, yes. Because Gohan and Gotenks would still be a viable option at that point. Unless Boo blows up the planet they're on. But they wouldn't have definitely been done in at that point.

Goku: "If these two weren't here then us, Gohan and the kids would have been done in and then the rest of the universe!"

What's the point of saying Gohan when everyone else gets the same point across?

They would have to go through Gohan and the kids before the rest of the universe would be done in. But I merely just put this to exclaim the ridiculous point you're making that Goku would somehow be including characters that wouldn't have existed at the time if these two characters hadn't been there. If you subtract Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo from being there then you subtract anything they would have had influence on too. Just like how Goku says "if these two weren't here we'd be done in." So if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Goku and Vegeta would be killed. Right? Just like if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then they would have never made the wish. Let's look at it with your logic. If Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Gohan and the kids will still be alive right now. Right? Because they are alive now? So that would also mean Goku and Vegeta would also be alive right now too? Because they are alive right now? It doesn't matter if they were defeated because Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there because Goku and Vegeta are alive right now in the present. Right?

Vegeta: "If these two weren't here then Gohan and the kids wouldn't have been alive because we would have never made the wish though."

They, however, would've been alive during Mr. Satan's contribution of the Genki Dama. If the Genki Dama plan failed, they still would've been done in regardless because Goku says so.

Mr. Satan's contribution started by saving Vegeta. Gohan and the kids weren't alive then. You can't just say that because at one point the kids were alive that must mean that Goku is including them. Mr. Satan's contribution directly correlates to Gohan and the kids being alive too. If you subtract either Mr. Satan or Mr. Boo from this then Gohan and the kids wouldn't be alive. If the Genki Dama plan failed there is a possibility they would have been done in. Not a certainty. If Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo weren't there though it would definitely be a certainty.

Because you're making more out of the quote than is necessary.

I'm not making more out of the quote than necessary. It is simple English. Goku is referencing a past event. Therefore he should be referencing the past situation where Gohan and the kids were not alive. You don't reference a past event and include the current events without transitioning in some way. There was no transition between the past events and the current or future events until later in his words. Goku specifically says they would have been been done in. Implying a past situation. Not current. Therefore we should use the past situation when Gohan and the kids weren't alive. Because that was the moment in which Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help began. Had they not have been there then the situation would have been Vegeta and Goku being killed while Gohan and the kids were still dead. Simple as.

It's simple. If Mr. Boo wasn't around, everyone would've been done in. If Mr. Satan didn't convince the earthlings to share their energy, everyone would've been done in. Same outcome.

Mr. Satan saved Vegeta, his help started long before the convincing of the Earthlings to share their energy. And if Mr. Satan hadn't of done that, or wasn't there, then Mr. Boo wouldn't have been there because it was Mr. Satan who released Mr. Boo.

[singsing]

Kaioshin was even scared of Pui Pui, I don't see how that measures his strength. Especially since you couldn't sense their powers.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku said that he was weaker than Fat Boo, but that SS Gotenks should be strong enough to defeat him, and that they won't have to use the RoSaT. After Gotenks was created, Piccolo didn't show any doubts in Gotenks' power, but he still told the kids to train as much as they can just in case. Boo's power was unpredictable after all, since his power rose when he was getting angry. When Evil Boo appeared, Piccolo was sure that SS Gotenks won't stand a chance, so he got them inside the RoSaT, where they trained for a week. Gotenks became even more powerful, and achieved Super Saiyan 3 on top of that, which made him strong enough to rival Evil Boo in power, probably stronger than him. Ultimate Gohan even stronger than both of them.

After Goku & Vegeta got inside Boo, Goku made it clear that be it inside or outside Boo's body, they don't stand a chance against Evil Boo without using Fusion or the Potara. Their plan was to remove everyone that Boo had absorbed in order to make him weaker, and bring him to their level. After Gohan Boo reverted to Evil Boo, Goku said that they are "almost there", but they still don't stand a chance against him, even though he was acting cocky about opening a hole (which means nothing, Goku wasn't acting as if he can beat him). After Evil Boo turned into S. Kaioshin Boo, he got stronger, so Goku & Vegeta got scared, but after he turned into Pure Boo, they got happy, and said that they "did it". Goku was confident that he can beat him as a Super Saiyan 3 at full power, without Fusion or Potara, and never said otherwise. He admitted that he lied about him being weaker than Fat Boo, but he didn't say anything about SS Gotenks being weaker than Boo or him. Vegeta said that Goku was #1, but he was only talking about him & Goku. The Super Genki Dama with Gohan's power alone wasn't strong enough to kill Boo because genki isn't as great as ki, it is only a part of it. Goku even suggested to bring Gohan & Gotenks to kill Boo after they were brought back to life, but Vegeta said no not because they may screw up or because they weren't strong enough, but because he wanted the Earthlings to do participate in saving their asses for once. And yes, Goku said that if the Genki Dama hadn't worked, everyone would have died. Why would everyone be dead if Gohan & Gotenks are around? Most likely because they had given all of their genki to the Genki Dama, which drained all of their power (Kaioshin couldn't even teleport after giving all of his genki), so if Boo had gone back to Earth, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks wouldn't stand a chance.

In the JSAT, Aka was a weakling, and Gotenks was playing around.

In BoG, nothing places SS3 Goku above U. Gohan or Gotenks, Beerus was stronger than everyone.

So far in Super, Vegeta said that Goku was the strongest Saiyan, but he was talking again about him & Goku, and Gohan & Gotenks aren't fully Saiyans after all, so they may be excluded.

The manga shows that there is a huge gap between SS3 Goku and U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks, and it shows that it's impossible for Goku to reach their level within his life-time through training.

But anyway, why does everyone want SS3 Goku to be the strongest, especially when they bring BoG/Super in the discussion? Super Saiyan God Goku far surpasses them after all, so at the end of the manga, he is the strongest.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He wasn't scared of Pui-Pui. When Pui-Pui is first shown, Kaioshin ignores him completely.

Gohan and the kids were not around during that? Because Mr. Satan helped before the Genki Dama part. He started helping when he tried saving Vegeta. At that point Gohan and the kids were still dead.

Yet his message to the people is why they were able to defeat Kid Boo in the first place. Goku even makes it a point to say he might be the world's champion for getting them to understand. If he didn't do that, they would've been done in..like he said.

There isn't because the end result of Boo and Mr. Satan not being there would have been that Goku and Vegeta would have been defeated and Gohan and the kids would still be dead. So there is no reason to include them.

The end result is that without Mr. Boo stalling Kid Boo and without Mr. Satan convincing the earth to participate, they and everyone else would've been done in. It's a pretty straight-forward quote.

I am saying that, yes. Because Gohan and Gotenks would still be a viable option at that point. Unless Boo blows up the planet they're on. But they wouldn't have definitely been done in at that point.

Then you're saying Goku's quote is wrong because he says they and everyone else would've been done.

The would have to go through Gohan and the kids before the rest of the universe would be done in. But I merely just put this to exclaim the ridiculous point you're making that Goku would somehow be including characters that wouldn't have existed at the time if these two characters hadn't been there.

Your point is even more ridiculous because it's ignoring the present in order to not include Gohan. They existed during the Genki Dama, they existed after it. If Boo wouldn't have been stopped right there, they and everyone else would've been done in. Goku's words.

If you subtract Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo from being there then you subtract anything they would have had influence on too.

If you subtract Mr. Satan talking to the people, then you get a Genki Dama that isn't complete. That means the day wouldn't be saved because Kid Boo would wipe them and everyone (including Gohan) else out. Goku defeating Kid Boo is what stopped them all from being done in--and Boo's defeat was primarility because of the contribution of Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo. So no matter how you look at it, not defeating Boo means they would all be done in. .

Just like how Goku says "if these two weren't here we'd be done in." So if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Goku and Vegeta would be killed. Right?

Yeah, and "everyone else" as well. It was a sequence of things. Their presence alone didn't win the battle--them doing certain things helped them win the battle. Those things being stalling and talking to the earth. If neither happens, everyone would be done in.

Just like if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then they would have never made the wish.

Nor would the Genki Dama have the necessary power to obliterate Kid Boo. Let's pretend that wasn't what saved the day, though.

Let's look at it with your logic. If Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Gohan and the kids will still be alive right now. Right? Because they are alive now? So that would also mean Goku and Vegeta would also be alive right now too? Because they are alive right now? It doesn't matter if they were defeated because Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there because Goku and Vegeta are alive right now in the present. Right?

Let's look at actual logic:

1)If Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there, then Goku and the others would've been done in.
2) If Mr. Satan didn't get the energy necessary for the Genki Dama, then Goku and the others would've been done in.

It's a sequence of events that lead up to Kid Boo's defeat. There's no one thing that made it all happen. My logic is simple: if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan fail to distract Boo and get enough energy for the Genki Dama, they and everyone would've been finished. It goes along with the actual quote and isn't twisting it to somehow ignore Gohan.

Mr. Satan's contribution started by saving Vegeta. Gohan and the kids weren't alive then.

And ended with him being regarded as the champion of the world because he got the energy necessary to power the Genki Dama. It doesn't matter where it began--it matters what the end result was. If he saved Vegeta and never talked to the people, they would've been done in. Simple.

You can't just say that because at one point the kids were alive that must mean that Goku is including them. Mr. Satan's contribution directly correlates to Gohan and the kids being alive too. If you subtract either Mr. Satan or Mr. Boo from this then Gohan and the kids wouldn't be alive. If the Genki Dama plan failed there is a possibility they would have been done in. Not a certainty. If Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo weren't there though it would definitely be a certainty.

It isn't a possibility. They would've been done in. The help of both was why they weren't done in. You continuously trying to restrict this quote from including Gohan doesn't change anything. Goku tells Vegeta to spare Mr. Boo because they would've been done in without their help. On the otherhand, he says nothing close to "If it weren't for them, the earth wouldn't have been restored and we would've been done in" or anything close to that. Without them, Kid Boo would wipe them out along with everyone else. It's really that simple.

I'm not making more out of the quote than necessary. It is simple English. Goku is referencing a past event.

Yes, you really are. He's not referencing no particular point at all, but rather an entire sequence leading up to Kid Boo's defeat. You know, the defeat that stopped them from being wiped out in the first place.

Therefore he should be referencing the past situation where Gohan and the kids were not alive.

He's not. He's referencing them helping defeat the guy who would've went on to wipe them and everyone else out. That isn't limited to saving Vegeta.

You don't reference a past event and include the current events without transitioning in some way.

You actually can. Especially if the past event and the conclusion of said event are intertwined with one another. The universe is saved when Kid Boo is wiped out, none of which would've happened if Mr. Boo didn't help and Mr. Satan didn't help. Their help ranged from stalling Kid Boo, saving Vegeta, and convincing the people of earth to give their energy to the Genki Dama. All of those events were required for Kid Boo's defeat or they and everyone else would've been done in like Goku says.

There was no transition between the past events and the current or future events until later in his words. Goku specifically says they would have been been done in.

Kid Boo was defeated and no longer existed. Goku's quote is made after Kid Boo is defeated.

Implying a past situation.

The past situation being Kid Boo, who was gone, thanks to Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's contribution.

Not current.

You're not making sense here. The current situation was that the universe was now safe because Kid Boo was defeated by the Genki Dama.

Therefore we should use the past situation when Gohan and the kids weren't alive. Because that was the moment in which Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help began. Had they not have been there then the situation would have been Vegeta and Goku being killed while Gohan and the kids were still dead. Simple as.

You use the situation because you want to purposely keep Gohan and the others out of it. It doesn't matter when their contribution began--what matters is how it finished. If they began to intervene and the Genki Dama never got the necessary power, they would've all been done in regardless.

Mr. Satan saved Vegeta, his help started long before the convincing of the Earthlings to share their energy. And if Mr. Satan hadn't of done that, or wasn't there, then Mr. Boo wouldn't have been there because it was Mr. Satan who released Mr. Boo.

Doesn't matter when the help began. If Mr. Satan didn't convince the earthlings to lend a hand, they would've been finished because the Genki Dama wouldn't have been strong enough to stop Boo. That's the focal point of his contribution considering Goku regards him possibly being the world's champion because of it.