Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Saago]

This discussion is impossible to settle, no matter how many pages are written about it, because of one simple reason: the evidence supports both positions, and neither one makes complete sense. Goku's statement about not being able to defeat Super Buu on his own puts him unequivocally below Gohan's power level (and Pure Buu below Super Buu, consequently); the problem is, after that very chapter, even the original manga started to heavily imply that Goku was the strongest one.

There's no two ways about it: the way everything is written during the final fight with Pure Buu suggests Goku is stronger than Gohan (and Pure Buu stronger than Super Buu). Even if the possibility of Gohan and Gotenks lending a hand with Buu is brought up, it's never treated as a definitive, foolproof way to win. The way everything concerning the genkidama is written, the way every single character behaves, suggests that Goku and the genkidama are the last and only hope. Trying to prove otherwise by deconstructing and overanalyzing every word spoken in these chapters is, in my opinion, grasping at straws. Saying that Toriyama intended the final struggles with the genkidama and the climax to the whole series to be interpreted in a it's-no-big-deal-Gohan-can-easily-defeat-Buu-anyway kind of way is grasping at straws. It's obviously being portrayed as a desperate situation, and if Gohan and Gotenks could beat the crap out of Buu without breaking a sweat then it wouldn't be a desperate situation.

So that's the thing: Goku being treated as the strongest one by everybody (even during the final fight with Buu in the original manga) is as obvious as Goku stating something that unmistakably puts him below Gohan. There are only two ways to reconcile that, from an in-universe perspective: either we say “Goku lied/made a mistake when he said he couldn't beat Super Buu, even though there is no apparent reason that would explain his lie/mistake” or we say that, during the final battle with Pure Buu, “every single character in the show suddenly became stupid and completely forgot that both Gohan and Gotenks could easily defeat Buu, and the whole climax of the show is stupidly pointless because it's not a climax at all”. And that's why this is a neverending discussion: both possibilities are pretty far-fetched, although I would personally argue that the latter is far more “disruptive” (from a narrative point of view).

The thing is, ever since Goku said that sentence which implied that he was weaker than Gohan, he has been clearly treated as if he were stronger than Gohan. In the last section of the manga (debatable, I guess, although, as I have argued, I think it's pretty obvious), in the new movies (no question, including Battle of Gods, which is the most relevant one in this discussion) and in the new show (from what I have read, no question either). So we've kind of reached a point in which... yeah, there was this instance in which Goku said something that could only be interpreted as him being weaker than Gohan, only immediately after that he was being written and treated as the strongest character, and every single iteration of the franchise in the last 20 years, including those written by Toriyama himself, has treated him as the strongest character. So, short of Super having a scene in which Goku suddenly says "Hey, Vegeta, remember that time when we were trapped inside Super Buu and I said I couldn't beat him? I lied because I didn't want to hurt your feelings!" (or something like that), I don't think they can put it more clearly.

[dragonballer]

This discussion is impossible to settle, no matter how many pages are written about it, because of one simple reason: the evidence supports both positions, and neither one makes complete sense. Goku's statement about not being able to defeat Super Buu on his own puts him unequivocally below Gohan's power level (and Pure Buu below Super Buu, consequently); the problem is, after that very chapter, even the original manga started to heavily imply that Goku was the strongest one.

There's no two ways about it: the way everything is written during the final fight with Pure Buu suggests Goku is stronger than Gohan (and Pure Buu stronger than Super Buu). Even if the possibility of Gohan and Gotenks lending a hand with Buu is brought up, it's never treated as a definitive, foolproof way to win. The way everything concerning the genkidama is written, the way every single character behaves, suggests that Goku and the genkidama are the last and only hope. Trying to prove otherwise by deconstructing and overanalyzing every word spoken in these chapters is, in my opinion, grasping at straws. Saying that Toriyama intended the final struggles with the genkidama and the climax to the whole series to be interpreted in a it's-no-big-deal-Gohan-can-easily-defeat-Buu-anyway kind of way is grasping at straws. It's obviously being portrayed as a desperate situation, and if Gohan and Gotenks could beat the crap out of Buu without breaking a sweat then it wouldn't be a desperate situation.

So that's the thing: Goku being treated as the strongest one by everybody (even during the final fight with Buu in the original manga) is as obvious as Goku stating something that unmistakably puts him below Gohan. There are only two ways to reconcile that, from an in-universe perspective: either we say “Goku lied/made a mistake when he said he couldn't beat Super Buu, even though there is no apparent reason that would explain his lie/mistake” or we say that, during the final battle with Pure Buu, “every single character in the show suddenly became stupid and completely forgot that both Gohan and Gotenks could easily defeat Buu, and the whole climax of the show is stupidly pointless because it's not a climax at all”. And that's why this is a neverending discussion: both possibilities are pretty far-fetched, although I would personally argue that the latter is far more “disruptive” (from a narrative point of view).

The thing is, ever since Goku said that sentence which implied that he was weaker than Gohan, he has been clearly treated as if he were stronger than Gohan. In the last section of the manga (debatable, I guess, although, as I have argued, I think it's pretty obvious), in the new movies (no question, including Battle of Gods, which is the most relevant one in this discussion) and in the new show (from what I have read, no question either). So we've kind of reached a point in which... yeah, there was this instance in which Goku said something that could only be interpreted as him being weaker than Gohan, only immediately after that he was being written and treated as the strongest character, and every single iteration of the franchise in the last 20 years, including those written by Toriyama himself, has treated him as the strongest character. So, short of Super having a scene in which Goku suddenly says "Hey, Vegeta, remember that time when we were trapped inside Super Buu and I said I couldn't beat him? I lied because I didn't want to hurt your feelings!" (or something like that), I don't think they can put it more clearly.

actually,there is a third option... see my theory about kid buu's healing factor

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=30024

kid buu's healing power is so good that gohan and gotenks wouldn't be able to destroy him easily (that's why goku suggested to bring both of them) and they could end up being absorbed.

[Kaboom]

You know, that kind of sounds like the type of answer Toriyama would come up with.

"Gotenks and Gohan were much stronger than the small original Majin Boo, (and so was / even more than) Goku. But Boo's regeneration was so incredible that they wouldn't be able to finish him off no matter what they did. Only the Spirit Bomb had enough size and power to get the job done."

Something like that would be an easy answer and clear up a lot of things, at least in the "why not bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight" department.

[Hitiro]

Gohan and the kids were not around during that? Because Mr. Satan helped before the Genki Dama part. He started helping when he tried saving Vegeta. At that point Gohan and the kids were still dead.

Yet his message to the people is why they were able to defeat Kid Boo in the first place. Goku even makes it a point to say he might be the world's champion for getting them to understand. If he didn't do that, they would've been done in..like he said.

You say this but Goku also thought Vegeta was suggesting they bring Gohan and the kids to fight Boo. So if they did that are you still saying they would be done in? Does that make Goku stupid for suggesting that they should bring the kids to beat Boo? This was another option so no. They wouldn't be done in. They would only be done in if there was nobody else capable to fight Boo. As such, that would be the case if Goku and Vegeta died before they could resurrect Gohan and the kids. If you are saying they would be done in after everyone was brought back to life you must also be saying Goku did a total 180 on what he previously said about using Gohan and the kids.

There isn't because the end result of Boo and Mr. Satan not being there would have been that Goku and Vegeta would have been defeated and Gohan and the kids would still be dead. So there is no reason to include them.

The end result is that without Mr. Boo stalling Kid Boo and without Mr. Satan convincing the earth to participate, they and everyone else would've been done in. It's a pretty straight-forward quote.

Then Goku's line about using Gohan and the kids to fight Boo means they would be done in if Vegeta hadn't of come up with using the Genki Dama I guess? It would be frankly stupid if Goku was stating that they would be done in after Gohan and the kids had been revived if not too long ago he was suggesting to use them. Therefore he must have not been including them in the "everyone" statement.

I am saying that, yes. Because Gohan and Gotenks would still be a viable option at that point. Unless Boo blows up the planet they're on. But they wouldn't have definitely been done in at that point.

Then you're saying Goku's quote is wrong because he says they and everyone else would've been done.

Not at all. As I've been explaining to you Goku's quote is referencing everyone before Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help. At that point Gohan and the kids weren't alive then. Goku's "everyone" is talking about the universe. Because Pure Boo would have just hopped around from world to world killing off "everyone". If you honestly believe Goku is including Gohan and the kids here then are you saying Goku's quote about bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight Pure Boo is wrong too? You're claiming everyone will be done in no matter if Gohan and Gotenks were alive. That goes against what Goku suggested entirely.

The would have to go through Gohan and the kids before the rest of the universe would be done in. But I merely just put this to exclaim the ridiculous point you're making that Goku would somehow be including characters that wouldn't have existed at the time if these two characters hadn't been there.

Your point is even more ridiculous because it's ignoring the present in order to not include Gohan. They existed during the Genki Dama, they existed after it. If Boo wouldn't have been stopped right there, they and everyone else would've been done in. Goku's words.

Your point is ridiculous because it's ignoring Goku suggesting they bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight. That would contradict his statement that everyone would be done in if he believed Gohan and Gotenks could do something. At this point we have two options:

Option A
Believe that he was talking about the present tense of people even though he is talking in the past tense and include Gohan and Gotenks in the category of "being done in."

Cons
Goku was suggesting they get Gohan and Gotenks to fight Pure Boo, if he was honestly thinking these two would be done in after they finally beat Boo then his original statement suggesting to use them is wrong.

Option A
Believe that he was talking about the past tense of people excluding people like Gohan and Gotenks in the category of "being done in." because at the start of Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help they weren't alive.

Cons
There are none. There would be no contradiction in his words as he is speaking in the past tense.

If you subtract Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo from being there then you subtract anything they would have had influence on too.

If you subtract Mr. Satan talking to the people, then you get a Genki Dama that isn't complete. That means the day wouldn't be saved because Kid Boo would wipe them and everyone (including Gohan) else out. Goku defeating Kid Boo is what stopped them all from being done in--and Boo's defeat was primarility because of the contribution of Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo. So no matter how you look at it, not defeating Boo means they would all be done in. .

If you subtract Mr. Satan you also subtract the part that he saves Vegeta, the part where he managed to free Mr. Boo from Pure Boo because he was being attacked and thus everything Mr. Boo did afterwards. Not just the Genki Dama. Take Mr. Satan out of the equation and Vegeta dies. Nobody gets brought back to life because Vegeta is dead and can't have that idea and then Goku will also die.

Just like how Goku says "if these two weren't here we'd be done in." So if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Goku and Vegeta would be killed. Right?

Yeah, and "everyone else" as well. It was a sequence of things. Their presence alone didn't win the battle--them doing certain things helped them win the battle. Those things being stalling and talking to the earth. If neither happens, everyone would be done in.

"Everyone else" is the universe. The whole universe was riding on the fight. Anybody who was dead at the time wouldn't count. The sequence of things without Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo would be Vegeta dies, Goku dies, everyone else in the universe dies excluding people who are already dead. That is the sequence. Gohan and Gotenks don't fall into that sequence because they were already dead before and during most of Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help. If you subtract Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help then they would still be dead and Goku plus Vegeta would follow them.

Just like if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then they would have never made the wish.

Nor would the Genki Dama have the necessary power to obliterate Kid Boo. Let's pretend that wasn't what saved the day, though.

I don't know why you are including the Genki Dama. If Mr. Satan wasn't there then they would have never gotten around to using the Genki Dama in the first place. Mr. Satan stopped Pure Boo from killing Vegeta by drawing him away. Without Mr. Satan then Vegeta would have died and the Genki Dama would have never been formed. Forget about not having the necessary power to obliterate Boo. There is no point in talking about an event that would have never transpired.

Let's look at it with your logic. If Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Gohan and the kids will still be alive right now. Right? Because they are alive now? So that would also mean Goku and Vegeta would also be alive right now too? Because they are alive right now? It doesn't matter if they were defeated because Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there because Goku and Vegeta are alive right now in the present. Right?

Let's look at actual logic:

1)If Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there, then Goku and the others would've been done in.
2) If Mr. Satan didn't get the energy necessary for the Genki Dama, then Goku and the others would've been done in.

So we should ignore the fact that Goku was going to use Gohan and Gotenks to fight Pure Boo then? Let's look at actual logic.

1)If Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Goku and Vegeta would have been killed followed by "Everyone in the universe who is still alive."
2)If Mr.Satan didn't get the energy necessary for the Genki Dama, then Gohan or Gotenks could have probably done something. Otherwise Goku's statement about bringing them to fight Pure Boo makes no sense.

It's a sequence of events that lead up to Kid Boo's defeat. There's no one thing that made it all happen. My logic is simple: if Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan fail to distract Boo and get enough energy for the Genki Dama, they and everyone would've been finished. It goes along with the actual quote and isn't twisting it to somehow ignore Gohan.

If Mr. Satan hadn't of saved Vegeta then there wouldn't be anybody alive to give Goku the Genki Dama energy because Vegeta had the idea of resurrecting people for a Genki Dama. By the sequence of events that lead up to Pure Boo's defeat we have to include all of Mr. Satan's contributions. Not just the ones at the very end like you're doing. If Mr. Satan wasn't there they would have never made it to the point of making a Genki Dama in the first place. They would have never have revived Gohan and the others either.

Mr. Satan's contribution started by saving Vegeta. Gohan and the kids weren't alive then.

And ended with him being regarded as the champion of the world because he got the energy necessary to power the Genki Dama. It doesn't matter where it began--it matters what the end result was. If he saved Vegeta and never talked to the people, they would've been done in. Simple.

This is irrelevant. Goku is talking about what would have happened if Mr. Satan wasn't there. If Mr. Satan wasn't there they would have been killed and Gohan plus the kids would be dead. If he saved Vegeta and never talked to the people they could have gotten Gohan or Gotenks to fight Pure Boo. As Goku suggested.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Everyone couldn't have been done in if there are still two fighters that can deal with Pure Boo fairly easily. The only way this makes sense is with Goku stating the past situation. Simple.

You can't just say that because at one point the kids were alive that must mean that Goku is including them. Mr. Satan's contribution directly correlates to Gohan and the kids being alive too. If you subtract either Mr. Satan or Mr. Boo from this then Gohan and the kids wouldn't be alive. If the Genki Dama plan failed there is a possibility they would have been done in. Not a certainty. If Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo weren't there though it would definitely be a certainty.

It isn't a possibility. They would've been done in. The help of both was why they weren't done in. You continuously trying to restrict this quote from including Gohan doesn't change anything. Goku tells Vegeta to spare Mr. Boo because they would've been done in without their help. On the otherhand, he says nothing close to "If it weren't for them, the earth wouldn't have been restored and we would've been done in" or anything close to that. Without them, Kid Boo would wipe them out along with everyone else. It's really that simple.

So Goku was wrong about bringing Gohan and the kids to fight Pure Boo? They would lose 100% of the time according to you? Yeah. Definitely pretty simple that Goku would be thinking that Gohan or the kids would be a possibility when they were fighting Pure Boo but all of a sudden do a 180 and decide that it isn't possible for them to beat Pure Boo. Pretty simple, yes.

I'm not making more out of the quote than necessary. It is simple English. Goku is referencing a past event.

Yes, you really are. He's not referencing no particular point at all, but rather an entire sequence leading up to Kid Boo's defeat. You know, the defeat that stopped them from being wiped out in the first place.

Incorrect. He is referencing what it would be like had Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo not been there. What would have happened if they were not there at the time? Vegeta would have died. Goku would have died. Everyone in the universe would be done in, excluding the already dead people.

Therefore he should be referencing the past situation where Gohan and the kids were not alive.

He's not. He's referencing them helping defeat the guy who would've went on to wipe them and everyone else out. That isn't limited to saving Vegeta.

He is. Because he is referencing the events leading up to Goku and Vegeta's defeat would have been before they could wish the Earth and its people back.

You don't reference a past event and include the current events without transitioning in some way.

You actually can. Especially if the past event and the conclusion of said event are intertwined with one another. The universe is saved when Kid Boo is wiped out, none of which would've happened if Mr. Boo didn't help and Mr. Satan didn't help. Their help ranged from stalling Kid Boo, saving Vegeta, and convincing the people of earth to give their energy to the Genki Dama. All of those events were required for Kid Boo's defeat or they and everyone else would've been done in like Goku says.

If you believe this you don't know how English works. Good English will always make a clear transition. Like the rest of Goku's quote does. If he wasn't on about the past situation then that is completely bad English.

There was no transition between the past events and the current or future events until later in his words. Goku specifically says they would have been been done in.

Kid Boo was defeated and no longer existed. Goku's quote is made after Kid Boo is defeated.

And he is speaking in past tense. We would have "been" done in. Not we "are" being done in. Please learn the difference. He is referencing a past situation.

Implying a past situation.

The past situation being Kid Boo, who was gone, thanks to Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's contribution.

That makes no sense because it would have never gotten to point they were at without Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's contributions. Goku specifically says "if these two weren't here." If those two weren't there the current state of the situation would be just Goku and Vegeta left and they would have been defeated without being able to do any of the events leading up to Pure Boo's defeat.

Not current.

You're not making sense here. The current situation was that the universe was now safe because Kid Boo was defeated by the Genki Dama.

The current situation being that Gohan and the kids are alive. Had Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo not been there the situation would have been just Goku and Vegeta.

Therefore we should use the past situation when Gohan and the kids weren't alive. Because that was the moment in which Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help began. Had they not have been there then the situation would have been Vegeta and Goku being killed while Gohan and the kids were still dead. Simple as.

You use the situation because you want to purposely keep Gohan and the others out of it. It doesn't matter when their contribution began--what matters is how it finished. If they began to intervene and the Genki Dama never got the necessary power, they would've all been done in regardless.

It does matter when their contribution began. Because that would be the state of the situation. At that point if Goku and Vegeta were to die then the everyone in the whole universe would have been done in. Gohan and the kids wouldn't come into the "everyone" category because they were already dead at the time.

Mr. Satan saved Vegeta, his help started long before the convincing of the Earthlings to share their energy. And if Mr. Satan hadn't of done that, or wasn't there, then Mr. Boo wouldn't have been there because it was Mr. Satan who released Mr. Boo.

Doesn't matter when the help began. If Mr. Satan didn't convince the earthlings to lend a hand, they would've been finished because the Genki Dama wouldn't have been strong enough to stop Boo. That's the focal point of his contribution considering Goku regards him possibly being the world's champion because of it.

Then it doesn't matter Goku was thinking of using Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight Pure Boo then because he was clearly wrong and corrected his ways after they defeated Pure Boo? Please listen to yourself. There is no reason for Goku to include Gohan and Gotenks in the "everyone" category when "everyone" at the time didn't include Gohan and the kids. If Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo weren't there then from the very start of the situation Goku and Vegeta would be the only ones left and Gohan plus the kids would not be included in the "everyone" category.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I would like to know, since Gohan/Gotenks are so much more powerful than Goku during the Boo events. How did they manage to surpass them in 6 months time from DB Super, let along Vegeta surpassing both of them? He clearly states that he is "second strongest next to Goku" and "#1".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You say this but Goku also thought Vegeta was suggesting they bring Gohan and the kids to fight Boo. So if they did that are you still saying they would be done in?

No idea. Goku wanted them to come and fight together, though. If it was as simple as Gohan being teleported there to blow Kid Boo up with a single Chi-blast, I highly doubt it would've been stated that way.

Does that make Goku stupid for suggesting that they should bring the kids to beat Boo?

It doesn't make him stupid, no. It just wasn't what Vegeta had in mind. Goku apparently forgets about them once he buys into Vegeta's plan, anyway.

This was another option so no. They wouldn't be done in.

And you know this...how? Goku says they'd be done in knowing Gohan and Gotenks would've been alive had Kid Boo destroyed the Kaioshin realm. All we know is Goku wanted them to be summoned to the world to fight Kid Boo. Nothing more, nothing less.

They would only be done in if there was nobody else capable to fight Boo. As such, that would be the case if Goku and Vegeta died before they could resurrect Gohan and the kids. If you are saying they would be done in after everyone was brought back to life you must also be saying Goku did a total 180 on what he previously said about using Gohan and the kids.

Everyone would've been done in had they not stopped Kid Boo right then and there. Read the quote. Earlier, present, future, whatever. If Goku says they'd be done in by Kid Boo, it means they'd be done in in every scenario.

Then Goku's line about using Gohan and the kids to fight Boo means they would be done in if Vegeta hadn't of come up with using the Genki Dama I guess?

That quote doesn't help you. Goku suggests the idea of them being brought there to fight together. That's it. Goku doesn't say they'd easily defeat him or anything. He had no problem saying Gohan would handle Piccolo Boo on his own, but he questions if Gohan and Gotenks will be summoned to fight together. He certainly isn't implying either could do it with ease. Goku also goes along with Vegeta's plan after initially having doubt about it. So apparently Goku was swayed into believing the Genki Dama was a better plan than bringing Gohan and Gotenks.

It would be frankly stupid if Goku was stating that they would be done in after Gohan and the kids had been revived if not too long ago he was suggesting to use them.

Call it what you will. Considering Goku never brings it up again, it's safe to say he thought the Genki Dama was a better plan overall. I don't recall Goku saying they should've went along with the plan of bringing Gohan and Gotenks when the Genki Dama plan wasn't working out so well. Goku suggested they come to fight Kid Boo. The last quote on the matter says they and everyone else would've been done in.

Therefore he must have not been including them in the "everyone" statement.

Therefore, "in your opinion", he must not have been including them in the everyone statement.

Not at all. As I've been explaining to you Goku's quote is referencing everyone before Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help.

Aside from the fact of how silly that sounds, it totally takes away from the build up and defeat of Kid Boo. He's referencing everyone period.

At that point Gohan and the kids weren't alive then.

At the point when the statement was made, they were. There's more merit to what I'm saying than what you're proposing.

Goku's "everyone" is talking about the universe.

Gohan and Gotenks are apart of the universe.

Because Pure Boo would have just hopped around from world to world killing off "everyone".

Including the earth...where Gohan resides.

If you honestly believe Goku is including Gohan and the kids here then are you saying Goku's quote about bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight Pure Boo is wrong too? You're claiming everyone will be done in no matter if Gohan and Gotenks were alive. That goes against what Goku suggested entirely.

Goku never said they'd come and easily defeat Boo. He simply asks Vegeta if they were going to be summoned to the world to fight. That's it. We do have Goku complimenting Vegeta on his plan after telling him it wouldn't work:

Goku: "Great idea, Vegeta! You're a hero!"

Stated after Gohan and Gotenks were suggested. So Goku's either very forgetful, or he thinks it's a better idea to use a technique that's failed twice in the series over two guys who can apparently erase Kid Boo with one blast. Pick one.

Your point is ridiculous because it's ignoring Goku suggesting they bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight.

That doesn't mean they'd win, though. All that means is they'd be summoned to fight. Furthermore, I have Goku complimenting Vegeta on his great plan after he suggested Gohan and Gotenks as the original plan. Goku never brings those guys up again.

That would contradict his statement that everyone would be done in if he believed Gohan and Gotenks could do something.

Believing they could do something doesn't mean they'd win.

If Gohan and Gotenks were capable of obliterating Kid Boo with ease, why did he think Vegeta's idea was a great plan? He's the one that suggested those two be brought there to fight...only to never bring it up again because Vegeta's plan is apparently so great. That's basically saying it was a better plan because he was convinced and never brought Gohan or Gotenks up again.

Believe that he was talking about the present tense of people even though he is talking in the past tense and include Gohan and Gotenks in the category of "being done in."

Because it isn't pointlessly twisting the quote to mean something it doesn't.

Cons
Goku was suggesting they get Gohan and Gotenks to fight Pure Boo, if he was honestly thinking these two would be done in after they finally beat Boo then his original statement suggesting to use them is wrong.

When did Goku said victory was inevitable if those two were summoned to the world to fight?

Goku thought the Genki Dama was a better plan. Gohan is never brought up again.

Believe that he was talking about the past tense of people excluding people like Gohan and Gotenks in the category of "being done in." because at the start of Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help they weren't alive.

This makes the least sense of anything because it makes the quote pointless. Goku already said the universe would've been history if they lost to Kid Boo before he even fought him. He says it again later to drive the point home. Yes, including Gohan and everyone else apart of the universe.

There are none. There would be no contradiction in his words as he is speaking in the past tense.

But apparently going (Goku's the one creating the attack after all) along with the Genki Dama over someone who can one shot Kid Boo makes perfect sense.

If you subtract Mr. Satan you also subtract the part that he saves Vegeta, the part where he managed to free Mr. Boo from Pure Boo because he was being attacked and thus everything Mr. Boo did afterwards. Not just the Genki Dama. Take Mr. Satan out of the equation and Vegeta dies. Nobody gets brought back to life because Vegeta is dead and can't have that idea and then Goku will also die.

Except the Genki Dama was what stopped the threat in the end. Everyone would still be done in if Kid Boo wasn't destroyed. I don't know why you keep pretending as if everything would've been perfectly fine if the Genki Dama failed. All you've shown is that certain things wouldn't have taken place if they weren't around. All of those things were a combined effort in saving the day. In the end, if the Genki Dama didn't stop Kid Boo, the universe and everyone in it would've been done. Go ahead and keep trying to twist the quote to mean something else.

"Everyone else" is the universe.

That Gohan is apart of when said statement is made.

The whole universe was riding on the fight. Anybody who was dead at the time wouldn't count.

Gohan was alive when the statement was made, so he counts.

The sequence of things without Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo would be Vegeta dies, Goku dies, everyone else in the universe dies excluding people who are already dead.

Only if you pretend that's the only scenario that could ever take place. If Goku's Genki Dama fails, Vegeta still dies, Goku dies, everyone else in the universe including Gohan would also be space dust. So no.

That is the sequence.

There isn't one sequence. That's your sequence. Big difference.

Gohan and Gotenks don't fall into that sequence because they were already dead before and during most of Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help. If you subtract Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help then they would still be dead and Goku plus Vegeta would follow them.

They do fall into the sequence considering they're apart of the Genki Dama's energy and the "everyone" Goku is referring to. To pretend that they're not included is to go against the point of the quote. If you subtract Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's help, they and everyone else would be wiped out. If you subtract Mr. Satan's talk with the people, they and everyone else would be wiped out. So you see, subtracting them at any point up to Kid Boo's demise would result in them and everyone else being done in. In other words, it covers all outcomes.

I don't know why you are including the Genki Dama.

Maybe because the Genki Dama was what actually ended the threat of Majin Boo?

If Mr. Satan wasn't there then they would have never gotten around to using the Genki Dama in the first place.

If Mr. Satan wasn't there then they wouldn't have gotten the necessary power to end the battle with the Genki Dama, either.

Mr. Satan stopped Pure Boo from killing Vegeta by drawing him away. Without Mr. Satan then Vegeta would have died and the Genki Dama would have never been formed.

Which is apart of their contribution to Boo's defeat.

Forget about not having the necessary power to obliterate Boo. There is no point in talking about an event that would have never transpired.

There is a point when said event is the reason why they ended up saving the day in the first place. If Mr. Satan never talked to the earth, the event would've been undone because they would've all gotten wiped out by Kid Boo. The event simply happening doesn't mean jack if it isn't completed.

So we should ignore the fact that Goku was going to use Gohan and Gotenks to fight Pure Boo then?

Goku went along with Vegeta's plan, calling it a "great" one. So you're the one calling Goku dumb for going along with an inferior plan when someone who can apparently finish Kid Boo off with ease is a teleport away. For a plan this effective, you'd think it'd be brought up again. It isn't.

1)If Mr. Boo and Mr. Satan weren't there then Goku and Vegeta would have been killed followed by "Everyone in the universe who is still alive."

Yes.

2)If Mr.Satan didn't get the energy necessary for the Genki Dama, then Gohan or Gotenks could have probably done something. Otherwise Goku's statement about bringing them to fight Pure Boo makes no sense.

No. They would've done nothing. They would've been history along with them (Goku and co) and the rest of the universe. Goku's statement doesn't matter because he never brings it up again once he buys into Vegeta's Genki Dama plan. Even when the Genki Dama isn't drawing the energy they want, he never says the plan is a mistake or thinks the other option (like he did with the potara earlier after that was declined) would've been a better plan.

If Mr. Satan hadn't of saved Vegeta then there wouldn't be anybody alive to give Goku the Genki Dama energy because Vegeta had the idea of resurrecting people for a Genki Dama. By the sequence of events that lead up to Pure Boo's defeat we have to include all of Mr. Satan's contributions. Not just the ones at the very end like you're doing. If Mr. Satan wasn't there they would have never made it to the point of making a Genki Dama in the first place. They would have never have revived Gohan and the others either.

Yes. All. So if he didn't save Vegeta, there would've been no Genki Dama and everyone would've been finished. If he did save Vegeta, but didn't talk to the people of earth, everyone would've still been finished because the Genki Dama would've failed. Same outcome. The universe would be finished.

This is irrelevant. Goku is talking about what would have happened if Mr. Satan wasn't there.

So convincing the people to give their energy isn't apart of his being there?

Everyone couldn't have been done in if there are still two fighters that can deal with Pure Boo fairly easily.

Nowhere in that statement is that implied. If Goku's suggesting that they both be summoned to fight, that'd imply they can't deal with him fairly easily.

The only way this makes sense is with Goku stating the past situation. Simple.

Yet Goku thinks the Genki Dama is a "great plan" when he himself suggested the far superior Gohan and Gotenks plan a few pages prior. So you're basically saying Goku's stupid and was easily conned to going along with an inferior plan. Good work.

So Goku was wrong about bringing Gohan and the kids to fight Pure Boo?

He suggested it, then went along with the Genki Dama because it was a better plan.

They would lose 100% of the time according to you?

Goku says they and everyone else would've been done in. I'd assume so.

Yeah. Definitely pretty simple that Goku would be thinking that Gohan or the kids would be a possibility when they were fighting Pure Boo but all of a sudden do a 180 and decide that it isn't possible for them to beat Pure Boo. Pretty simple, yes.

Goku went along with the Genki Dama because he thought it was a great plan. Never brings up Gohan or Gotenks ever again. So it was either a better plan or Goku was dumb enough to go with an option that his history of failing over two guys who could end the universal threat in one blast.

Incorrect. He is referencing what it would be like had Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo not been there.

Yeah. Kid Boo wouldn't have been defeated. Simple.

What would have happened if they were not there at the time? Vegeta would have died. Goku would have died. Everyone in the universe would be done in, excluding the already dead people.

Correction: Vegeta would have died, Goku would have died. Everyone in the universe would've been done in, including the people who were alive. The statement was made when everyone was alive, so it's referring to that. The fact that you keep trying to separate the main reason (Genki Dama) why Kid Boo was defeated from all of this says it all.

He is. Because he is referencing the events leading up to Goku and Vegeta's defeat would have been before they could wish the Earth and its people back.

The events which lead to the outcome where this statement is made. When Boo is defeated by the Genki Dama. Unless you want to pretend like the Genki Dama wasn't apart of those events.

]If you believe this you don't know how English works.

I know how English works. You're just bent on twisting a statement that's obvious for anyone to read.

Good English will always make a clear transition. Like the rest of Goku's quote does. If he wasn't on about the past situation then that is completely bad English.

There. is. no .situation. Goku's not referencing a specific point. He's saying had these guys not contributed, there wouldn't have been a happy ending. It means that everything that has taken place up to that point stems from their help. Meaning they all would've been wiped out along with the universe that Gohan is obviously apart of.

And he is speaking in past tense.

Duh. Kid Boo is defeated and no longer exists. He is past tense.

We would have "been" done in. Not we "are" being done in.

We "are" being done in means that it's an ongoing process that's taking place, genius. That obviously wasn't happening with Kid Boo being erased from existence and the universe being safe once again Are you serious?

Please learn the difference.

Please keep your snide remarks to yourself.

He is referencing a past situation.

That "situation" being what led up to the defeat of Kid Boo.

That makes no sense because it would have never gotten to point they were at without Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo's contributions.

Nor would they have saved the universe without their contribution. Yes, and?

Goku specifically says "if these two weren't here." If those two weren't there the current state of the situation would be just Goku and Vegeta left and they would have been defeated without being able to do any of the events leading up to Pure Boo's defeat.

No. Goku specifically says they "did well", and everyone else would've been done in if those two weren't there. In other words, Boo wouldn't have been defeated if they weren't there to help.

The current situation being that Gohan and the kids are alive. Had Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo not been there the situation would have been just Goku and Vegeta.

The current situation being that Boo was defeated thanks to Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo. Had those two not participated in Kid Boo's defeat, Gohan and the kids would've been destroyed along with everything else. That was the actual current situation.

It does matter when their contribution began. Because that would be the state of the situation.

They were still in trouble when the contribution began. Kid Boo still wipes out everyone if they fail to defeat him with the Genki Dama.

At that point if Goku and Vegeta were to die then the everyone in the whole universe would have been done in. Gohan and the kids wouldn't come into the "everyone" category because they were already dead at the time.

If you try to pretend Goku's not referring to their overall involvement in the ordeal, yeah. If Goku's Genki Dama fails, the universe still ends. Goku went along with the Genki Dama over the "destroy Kid Boo in one blast" plan because the Genki Dama was a better plan.

Then it doesn't matter Goku was thinking of using Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight Pure Boo then because he was clearly wrong and corrected his ways after they defeated Pure Boo?

There was no or. He simply mentioned both of them being summoned there to fight. Furthermore, Goku went along with the Genki Dama, calling it a "great plan", and even praising Vegeta over the plan. So yes, Goku choose a technique that's failed throughout the series over the new generation who can apparently blast Boo to bits with ease. Yep.

Please listen to yourself.

Says the guy trying to separate the events leading up to Boo's defeat. You act like the Genki Dama wouldn't have been an issue had it failed when the story quite clearly paints it as a big deal. That's why it took as much as energy as it did to get the job done. I'd rather go with the stories interpretation over a convoluted explanation where Goku is referring to everyone being done in way back as if the present doesn't matter.

There is no reason for Goku to include Gohan and Gotenks in the "everyone" category when "everyone" at the time didn't include Gohan and the kids.

At the time when the statement is made, Gohan and the kids were alive. Take away Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo immediately after the earth is brought back and they're all still done in because Kid Boo wouldn't have been defeated by the Genki Dama. You can add whatever ridiculous spin you want to the quote, but the universe is still history if they don't defeat Kid Boo.

If Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo weren't there then from the very start of the situation Goku and Vegeta would be the only ones left and Gohan plus the kids would not be included in the "everyone" category.

If Mr. Satan and Mr. Boo weren't there, then Kid Boo would've never been defeated, either.

[Hugo Boss]

Spoiler:

This discussion is impossible to settle, no matter how many pages are written about it, because of one simple reason: the evidence supports both positions, and neither one makes complete sense. Goku's statement about not being able to defeat Super Buu on his own puts him unequivocally below Gohan's power level (and Pure Buu below Super Buu, consequently); the problem is, after that very chapter, even the original manga started to heavily imply that Goku was the strongest one.

There's no two ways about it: the way everything is written during the final fight with Pure Buu suggests Goku is stronger than Gohan (and Pure Buu stronger than Super Buu). Even if the possibility of Gohan and Gotenks lending a hand with Buu is brought up, it's never treated as a definitive, foolproof way to win. The way everything concerning the genkidama is written, the way every single character behaves, suggests that Goku and the genkidama are the last and only hope. Trying to prove otherwise by deconstructing and overanalyzing every word spoken in these chapters is, in my opinion, grasping at straws. Saying that Toriyama intended the final struggles with the genkidama and the climax to the whole series to be interpreted in a it's-no-big-deal-Gohan-can-easily-defeat-Buu-anyway kind of way is grasping at straws. It's obviously being portrayed as a desperate situation, and if Gohan and Gotenks could beat the crap out of Buu without breaking a sweat then it wouldn't be a desperate situation.

So that's the thing: Goku being treated as the strongest one by everybody (even during the final fight with Buu in the original manga) is as obvious as Goku stating something that unmistakably puts him below Gohan. There are only two ways to reconcile that, from an in-universe perspective: either we say “Goku lied/made a mistake when he said he couldn't beat Super Buu, even though there is no apparent reason that would explain his lie/mistake” or we say that, during the final battle with Pure Buu, “every single character in the show suddenly became stupid and completely forgot that both Gohan and Gotenks could easily defeat Buu, and the whole climax of the show is stupidly pointless because it's not a climax at all”. And that's why this is a neverending discussion: both possibilities are pretty far-fetched, although I would personally argue that the latter is far more “disruptive” (from a narrative point of view).

The thing is, ever since Goku said that sentence which implied that he was weaker than Gohan, he has been clearly treated as if he were stronger than Gohan. In the last section of the manga (debatable, I guess, although, as I have argued, I think it's pretty obvious), in the new movies (no question, including Battle of Gods, which is the most relevant one in this discussion) and in the new show (from what I have read, no question either). So we've kind of reached a point in which... yeah, there was this instance in which Goku said something that could only be interpreted as him being weaker than Gohan, only immediately after that he was being written and treated as the strongest character, and every single iteration of the franchise in the last 20 years, including those written by Toriyama himself, has treated him as the strongest character. So, short of Super having a scene in which Goku suddenly says "Hey, Vegeta, remember that time when we were trapped inside Super Buu and I said I couldn't beat him? I lied because I didn't want to hurt your feelings!" (or something like that), I don't think they can put it more clearly.

You said brilliantly. The franchise has been supporting Goku's number-one-ness even before the god-characters were a thing. I guess the inconsistence in this last part is what really makes so interesting in discussing the subject and posting our theories. The heads of DBS might even think saying Boo was the strongest of his time is an obvious fact. Like the entire Boo Arc was a big contest to decide who would be the one to take the belt from him.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

So, I suppose saying things like Goku was lying when he said he can't beat Evil Boo isn't "grasping at straws" ? Or Goku was only referring to his Super Saiyan 2 when he said he can't beat Evil Boo ?

Goku was excited at the idea of Gohan and Gotenks coming to fight Pure Boo, the only reason it's shot down is because Vegeta explicitly states that the Earthlings need to help themselves for once, not that Gotenks or Gohan didn't have enough power. Why exactly does that have to be twisted into It's a desperate situation because Gohan and Gotenks can't do anything to help, saying otherwise is grasping at straws. Fact. ?

The first thing Goku says when Evil Boo reverts to Pure Boo is "We did it!", but somehow that's supposed to mean "We made him stronger!" ?

[h0kuten]

Everything has supported Goku being the strongest since Dragonball has returned. Nothing, and I mean nothing has ever at any point of time supported the opposite.

I'll go with the new implications.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Besides Gohan's BOG bio (or something along those lines, I believe) saying Gohan has power surpassing that of a pure Saiyan.

[h0kuten]

That was promotional material.

Which isn't always accurate.

[RandomGuy96]

You know, that kind of sounds like the type of answer Toriyama would come up with.

"Gotenks and Gohan were much stronger than the small original Majin Boo, (and so was / even more than) Goku. But Boo's regeneration was so incredible that they wouldn't be able to finish him off no matter what they did. Only the Spirit Bomb had enough size and power to get the job done."

Something like that would be an easy answer and clear up a lot of things, at least in the "why not bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight" department.

Okay, this is one of my biggest fandom pet peeves, so I just have to say it. THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE CLEARED UP. An explanation was already given in the text. Short answer: Gohan or Gotenks could have killed Buu easily, and were Goku's first plan, but Vegeta's an asshole who thinks the Earthlings should take responsibility for his evil deeds.

Everything has supported Goku being the strongest since Dragonball has returned. Nothing, and I mean nothing has ever at any point of time supported the opposite.

I'll go with the new implications.

Stop with the lies, t0sh.

JSAT special:
Gotenks: "Lol, I don't even need Super Saiyan to smack this fat guy around, I can do it just in base".
Goku: "Hey, now that no one's paying attention, I can defeat this fat guy by going Super Saiyan!"

BOG bio: "[Gohan] has power surpassing that of pure saiyans"

BOG:
[Vegeta hears that Kakarot got beaten in two hits]
Vegeta: "Kakarot lost in two hits!?"
[Vegeta sees Gotenks and Gohan lose]
Vegeta: "I never imagined that Beerus could be this far above us!"

[Saago]

So, I suppose saying things like Goku was lying when he said he can't beat Evil Boo isn't "grasping at straws" ? Or Goku was only referring to his Super Saiyan 2 when he said he can't beat Evil Boo ?

I'm not grasping at anything: I said both options make no sense, didn't I? What I think is grasping at straws is saying Gohan being the strongest wraps up everything in a nice, coherent package, but then it has to be followed up by arguing that, when Goku says that "without Mr Satan's help the whole universe would've been destroyed", he was referring to the fact that, without Mr Satan's help, the universe would've been destroyed because Buu would have had time to wipe out every single planet in existence before Gohan had been revived. And the fact that absolutely no one, not a single character, second-guesses the Genki Dama plan, not even when it was about to fail completely, is also not peculiar at all?

I'm not trying to give an in-universe explanation, because there isn't one (well, you can come up with countless explanations to support either side, but they have to be shoehorned in). I'm merely saying what, I think, is pretty obvious: Toriyama clearly implied that Goku was weaker than Gohan, yet ever since that moment he has been writing the story (including the last part of the manga) under the assumption that Goku is stronger.

[Truhan]

One more thing: it doesn't seem like Akira Toriyama would write DBGT out of the franchise's universe, so in a way, Goku would have to end up stronger than Gohan, with Vegeta in 2nd place, with or without their God powers. Perhaps Gohan losing his powers and turning SSJ instead in RoF, among other things, was a sign that the author doesn't want to contradict TOEI's productions, of which he is part now (as a writer). However, it would only make sense for the God powers, Whis and Beerus to disappear along with their memories, leaving whatever progress Goku and Vegeta had at base.

[h0kuten]

Toriyama obviously knows he never at any single point in the Manga says Gohan cannot turn Super Saiyan on top of his Mystic form. Never! So it's not a contradiction over the original material, even GT realizes this.

Also, there are a myriad of statements in Dragonball Super, Yo Son Goku & BoG that explicitly imply or show Goku or Vegeta being superior to Gohan. Vegeta out-performed Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan. People love to argue Beerus' adjusted his power, well guess what? Androids don't have Chi so they cannot be sensed, debunking this fan illusion. The feats are there to show us who is superior to who now, not before, but now. Trying to nit-pick every pixel is looking to far into it.

Promotional material isn't the finalized piece and is subject to change. As when Gotenks was originally a Ssj2 but was turned to his Mystic state.

Vegeta told Gotenks not to fight Beerus' because he already lost himself.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta told Gotenks not to fight Beerus' because he already lost himself.

Or because Kaio told him that no one should ever touch Beerus, ever.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

When Vegeta got his anger power-up, he was stated to surpass Goku.

It wouldn't make sense for the emphasis to be on Vegeta surpassing Goku if he's not the strongest guy around at that point.

BoG Goku and Rageta are both above Gohan. He was irrelevant in BoG.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It wouldn't make sense for the emphasis to be on Vegeta surpassing Goku if he's not the strongest guy around at that point.

Why not? Vegeta isn't some random fighter, he is Goku's rival, and it was his obsession for years to surpass Goku. He finally surpassed him for a moment, and no one would find it noteworthy?

[Truhan]

I'm obviously new to these forums, but must h0kuten be always right? I mean, I'll condescend right away if that's the case.

[Zephyr]

I would like to know, since Gohan/Gotenks are so much more powerful than Goku during the Boo events. How did they manage to surpass them in 6 months time from DB Super, let along Vegeta surpassing both of them? He clearly states that he is "second strongest next to Goku" and "#1".

The explanation I'm going with is that Vegeta is referring to the full-blooded Saiyans, and excluding the half breeds.