Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Kuririn was being targeted by Freeza's mercenaries, as the script says. So, it's not "irrefutable fact" that Jaco is stronger. He seems to be stronger than Tenshinhan, though.

[h0kuten]

Kuririn was being targeted by Freeza's mercenaries, as the script says. So, it's not "irrefutable fact" that Jaco is stronger. He seems to be stronger than Tenshinhan, though.

I have the movie, everyone was being targeted by Freeza's mercenaries.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You are talking about the soldiers. Within the soldiers, there are powerful mercenaries as well:

Despite being called “Freeza Army”, by now it’s been reduced to merely a hodge-podge of second-rate warriors. Strength-wise Earth’s army overwhelmingly has the upper hand, and the enemy force’s numbers steadily drop. However, there are still some strong enemies. The mercenaries are particularly troublesome. Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo’s strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role.

There’s not much of Freeza’s army left, and Gohan defeats one powerful mercenary after another.

The five are out of breath. They each eat a Senzu and recover. Surprisingly, Jaco isn’t out of breath, but is shamelessly inching away towards the back.

While staring at Freeza, Kame-sennin addresses Piccolo: “What do you think? Can the five of us manage something if we fight together?”
Piccolo: “No, it’s hopeless. He’s a monster…completely out of our league…”
Kame-sennin: “You think so too, huh?...Too bad…”
Freeza: “None of you seem very eager to get things started…Well, I’m bored. How about I kill you off one by one?”

These are directly from Toriyama's script of FnF, and it sounds like Jaco is the weakest of the group, even though he is the only one that isn't out of breath. Toriyama makes it sound as if it's surprising that Jaco can help, as he says "even Jaco plays a big role". There are powerful mercenaries withing Freeza's army, so it's possible that Kuririn fought them, while Jaco didn't. Kame-sennin isn't even taking Jaco into account when he is asking Piccolo if they stand a chance against Freeza.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I wonder why mercenaries would willingly work for Freeza, considering the way he treats his underlings.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I wonder why mercenaries would willingly work for Freeza, considering the way he treats his underlings.

He pays well, and can kill them and all of their loved ones if they say no?

[h0kuten]

You are talking about the soldiers. Within the soldiers, there are powerful mercenaries as well:

Despite being called “Freeza Army”, by now it’s been reduced to merely a hodge-podge of second-rate warriors. Strength-wise Earth’s army overwhelmingly has the upper hand, and the enemy force’s numbers steadily drop. However, there are still some strong enemies. The mercenaries are particularly troublesome. Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo’s strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role.

There’s not much of Freeza’s army left, and Gohan defeats one powerful mercenary after another.

The five are out of breath. They each eat a Senzu and recover. Surprisingly, Jaco isn’t out of breath, but is shamelessly inching away towards the back.

While staring at Freeza, Kame-sennin addresses Piccolo: “What do you think? Can the five of us manage something if we fight together?”
Piccolo: “No, it’s hopeless. He’s a monster…completely out of our league…”
Kame-sennin: “You think so too, huh?...Too bad…”
Freeza: “None of you seem very eager to get things started…Well, I’m bored. How about I kill you off one by one?”

These are directly from Toriyama's script of FnF, and it sounds like Jaco is the weakest of the group, even though he is the only one that isn't out of breath. Toriyama makes it sound as if it's surprising that Jaco can help, as he says "even Jaco plays a big role". There are powerful mercenaries withing Freeza's army, so it's possible that Kuririn fought them, while Jaco didn't. Kame-sennin isn't even taking Jaco into account when he is asking Piccolo if they stand a chance against Freeza.

I don't see how the script implies Jaco is the weakest.

At the expense of any sort of confirmation within the official script, we have to look at something that is equally valid. The damn feats.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Does anyone think it's possible 416 and 408 weren't Piccolo and Goku's maxes?

How does this look?

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 334
-unweighted: 416
-full power: 840
--Kamehameha *: 924 (1.1x)

Piccolo: 322
-unweighted: 408
-full power: 831.25
--Light of Death *: 1,330 (1.6x)

It makes more sense of Ki amplification also.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see how the script implies Jaco is the weakest.

Like I said:

Toriyama makes it sound as if it's surprising that Jaco can help, as he says "even Jaco plays a big role". There are powerful mercenaries withing Freeza's army, so it's possible that Kuririn fought them, while Jaco didn't. Kame-sennin isn't even taking Jaco into account when he is asking Piccolo if they stand a chance against Freeza.

At the expense of any sort of confirmation within the official script, we have to look at something that is equally valid. The damn feats.

The feats would have been valid if all of Freeza's soldiers had the same battle power. However, they vary from powerful mercenaries, to weak soldiers that get beaten by a big fishes & rocks.

Does anyone think it's possible 416 and 408 weren't Piccolo and Goku's maxes?

I doubt it. They knew that Raditz was much stronger than them, so they would go all-out from the start, and Raditz would have mentioned their battle powers, as he was doing all the time.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

and Raditz would have mentioned their battle powers, as he was doing all the time.

This is the main reason why I was thinking to leave them at 416 and 408. I feel there would've been some indication they were higher from Toriyama or Raditz.

I just liked the idea since it makes sense of the large implied gaps between the main cast and Goku/Piccolo at the 23rd TB and makes more sense of Ki amplification (a KHH being 1.1x instead 2.22x multiplication.)

[miguelnuva1]

Does anyone think it's possible 416 and 408 weren't Piccolo and Goku's maxes?

How does this look?

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 334
-unweighted: 416
-full power: 840
--Kamehameha *: 924 (1.1x)

Piccolo: 322
-unweighted: 408
-full power: 831.25
--Light of Death *: 1,330 (1.6x)

It makes more sense of Ki amplification also.

I think the 840 and 831.26 for piccolo do look better personally.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama makes it sound as if it's surprising that Jaco can help, as he says "even Jaco plays a big role". There are powerful mercenaries withing Freeza's army, so it's possible that Kuririn fought them, while Jaco didn't. Kame-sennin isn't even taking Jaco into account when he is asking Piccolo if they stand a chance against Freeza.

I don't know if I understand it in the same way. The surprise about Jaco could be from him participating in the fight. He is a new character in Dragon Ball movies. You can stretch the meaning to make him the weaker in the group, since he uses the word "strong" a lot in the text, but Jaco seems to be in the same ballpark as Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Kame-Sennin. Perhaps you could even stretch to make a chain, with Kuririn as the strongest Earthling, it would have no problem.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama makes it sound as if it's surprising that Jaco can help, as he says "even Jaco plays a big role". There are powerful mercenaries withing Freeza's army, so it's possible that Kuririn fought them, while Jaco didn't. Kame-sennin isn't even taking Jaco into account when he is asking Piccolo if they stand a chance against Freeza.

I don't know if I understand it in the same way. The surprise about Jaco could be from him participating in the fight. He is a new character in Dragon Ball movies. You can stretch the meaning to make him the weaker in the group, since he uses the word "strong" a lot in the text, but Jaco seems to be in the same ballpark as Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Kame-Sennin. Perhaps you could even stretch to make a chain, with Kuririn as the strongest Earthling, it would have no problem.

That's true, but this isn't the only indication about Jaco being the weakest. If Jaco was so powerful, why did Kame-sennin ignore him? And as for his feats, like I said, the battle powers in Freeza's soldiers vary, we can't get a clear picture from that.

[ZombieVito]

The five are out of breath. They each eat a Senzu and recover. Surprisingly, Jaco isn’t out of breath, but is shamelessly inching away towards the back.

Thank you. This proves without a doubt they did get tired, even Gohan and Piccolo.

[RandomGuy96]

Does anyone think it's possible 416 and 408 weren't Piccolo and Goku's maxes?

How does this look?

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 334
-unweighted: 416
-full power: 840
--Kamehameha *: 924 (1.1x)

Piccolo: 322
-unweighted: 408
-full power: 831.25
--Light of Death *: 1,330 (1.6x)

It makes more sense of Ki amplification also.

I think that's a very valid theory. Vegeta says that Goku and Piccolo had power levels of "around 1,000 at most", and this battle is what teaches him about the idea of suppressing your ki. Plus, V-Jump states that Goku's power level was 910 at the 23rd Budokai. ALSO, Raditz doesn't say that Gohan has a higher battle power than Goku until Gohan hits 1,307, and seems really shocked by that fact.

We don't know if Jaco got tired or not. Him not taking the senzu can easily be explained because he only eats cheese.

Are you forgetting that Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to fill up his army? They were the most likely ones to give Kuririn problems, especially since the script mentions them as troublesome.

Piccolo only drinks water, yet he still eats senzus all the time.

That's really, really reaching. Having a rock dropped on them or a fish eating them kills scores of soldiers just fine. As does getting hit by Roshi. No indication is given of those few following Krillin being above the rest by several orders of magnitude.

EDIT: Seriously, how many thugs did that big rock kill? A hundred? More?

Did the soldiers truly died by the rock? I guess I need to see the scene again but I don't remember seeing any soldiers get killed by rocks.

They didn't technically die, but they were defeated. Yeah, it happened. A really big rock, i.e. the side of a mountain. Krillin chopped it off with a Kienzan and it fell on about a hundred soldiers, taking them out. That may not seem dumb at first, but please remember that city-busting has been standard since the Daimao arc, and even BOZ Piccolo could bust the Earth (going by his moon overkill).

e) Shishami probably trained alongside Freeza and increased his power level to the millions.
f) Gohan could not defeat Shisami in Base. This infers he increased himself from his original 'Zarbon' level, four months prior.

I just don't complicate myself and assign the weak soldiers to those instances. The powerful mercenaries are the ones that gave Kuririn trouble and the ones that actually hit Gohan. Saves me the headache. I also don't have a problem with the fish, I just assume those soldiers had a BP of 100 and the fish a BP of 120-150. Problem solved.

This is what I mean about making stuff up and ignoring that actual movie. There's absolutely no implication that Shisami did any training, and no implication that Freeza was off when he said that a power level of 1.3 million would let him surpass Majin Buu (presumably Fat Buu). Similarly, it's never implied that the big fish that killed scores of soldiers was anything other than just a big animal.

The five are out of breath. They each eat a Senzu and recover. Surprisingly, Jaco isn’t out of breath, but is shamelessly inching away towards the back.

Thank you. This proves without a doubt they did get tired, even Gohan and Piccolo.

Not really. Toriyama's script was very vague, and wasn't followed 100% in the actual film. Gohan clearly wasn't shown as being out of breath. We must also remember that even the mercenaries he hired are going to be extremely weak relative to base Gohan (unless you go by my list, of course... in that case it's actually plausible that some mercenaries around Nappa's level could land hits on and tire out base Gohan). Do remember that a power level of ~20,000 put you in the category of "top 20 strongest people in the universe" in the Freeza arc. Heck, the king and strongest warrior of the strongest warrior race had a battle power that was maybe half of that.

ANYWAY, a question: how strong is Demigra in Xenoverse? Also, I've heard that Xenoverse's protagonist is on par with Super Buu by the time s/he fights Demigra. Is that true?

[supercat]

Candidly speaking, how is it even possible to specifically determine which of the thousand were mercenaries? Regardless, they must have been pretty darn powerful to give someone like Krillin, who I envision would easily be in the realm of 500,000 - 1,500,000 that much trouble.

Personally I never quite subscribed to the concept of falling victim to fatigue after fighting a band of useless mooks, but I'll just assume that refraining from incinerating the entire pile of trash with one-shot was what exacerbated energy consumption. Though real life examples are seldom applicable or even remotely comparable to scenarios such as this one, I guess it's a bit akin to how doing an hour or two of aerobics can be far more tiring than maxing out once or twice on a heavy lift.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

ANYWAY, a question: how strong is Demigra in Xenoverse? Also, I've heard that Xenoverse's protagonist is on par with Super Buu by the time s/he fights Demigra. Is that true?

Well, the first time you encounter one of Demigra's apparitions, you're fighting Evil Buu on the sanctuary. By the time you actually confront Demigra in the flesh though, your character is in the realm of the gods. You've fought and impressed both Beerus & Whis, and tackled Demigra after he's defeated post BOG Goku (who is using SS3 because it was released prior to "F")...and that's before he pulls out his transformation card.

Almost certainly still weaker than Beerus though, because he very clearly fears him.

[KentalSSJ6]

ANYWAY, a question: how strong is Demigra in Xenoverse? Also, I've heard that Xenoverse's protagonist is on par with Super Buu by the time s/he fights Demigra. Is that true?

Well, the first time you encounter one of Demigra's apparitions, you're fighting Evil Buu on the sanctuary. By the time you actually confront Demigra in the flesh though, your character is in the realm of the gods. You've fought and impressed both Beerus & Whis, and tackled Demigra after he's defeated post BOG Goku (who is using SS3 because it was released prior to "F")...and that's before he pulls out his transformation card.

Almost certainly sttill weaker than Beerus though, because he very clearly fears him.

On the whole 1 to 15 scale, Id put Demigra at a 8. His plain form enough to subdue (and I think possibly kill you) you and a Post BOG SSJ3 Goku, yet falls to you and Goku's combined Kamehameha (or yours after being imbued with Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin's energy).

[h0kuten]

I don't see how the script implies Jaco is the weakest.

Like I said:

Toriyama makes it sound as if it's surprising that Jaco can help, as he says "even Jaco plays a big role". There are powerful mercenaries withing Freeza's army, so it's possible that Kuririn fought them, while Jaco didn't. Kame-sennin isn't even taking Jaco into account when he is asking Piccolo if they stand a chance against Freeza.

At the expense of any sort of confirmation within the official script, we have to look at something that is equally valid. The damn feats.

The feats would have been valid if all of Freeza's soldiers had the same battle power. However, they vary from powerful mercenaries, to weak soldiers that get beaten by a big fishes & rocks.

Does anyone think it's possible 416 and 408 weren't Piccolo and Goku's maxes?

I doubt it. They knew that Raditz was much stronger than them, so they would go all-out from the start, and Raditz would have mentioned their battle powers, as he was doing all the time.

So you cannot make a distinction between which soldiers were the strongest and which weren't, because it's impossible. Please stop acting like your view-point is the only one.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So you cannot make a distinction between which soldiers were the strongest and which weren't, because it's impossible. Please stop acting like your view-point is the only one.

I'm not. My point is, we have implications that Jaco is the weakest, and the only implication that Jaco is the strongest is only based on your assumption that Jaco fought enemies on the same level as the ones Kuririn fought.

[h0kuten]

So you cannot make a distinction between which soldiers were the strongest and which weren't, because it's impossible. Please stop acting like your view-point is the only one.

I'm not. My point is, we have implications that Jaco is the weakest, and the only implication that Jaco is the strongest is only based on your assumption that Jaco fought enemies on the same level as the ones Kuririn fought.

We don't have implications that he is the weakest, but we do have feats to suggest he is the strongest.