Tension in Ressurection "F"

[Doctor.]

But it never got the point where Buu had a chance to survive with Goku being in control though infact Goku said himself he could have killed Fat Buu when he went SS3 and he didn't.

He let Boo live not out of mercy or kindness though, he let him live because he wanted the kids to step up and become the saviors of Earth. That's more heroic of him, if anything. And of course it got to that point, Goku was in control during the whole Genkidama thing and he killed Boo without hesitation. Gohan was letting Cell live to torture him more and Goku kept telling him to kill him instead of saying "oh, he may turn good" or "oh, he may become a good rival and if he starts killing we always have Gohan". He killed Yakon mercilessly and said he'd kill Dabra.

He's not the same.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Yes, Goku didn't want to finish off Freeza.

This isn't the same Goku.

This 'development' of his in the film is the same thing he did on Namek: give him a bunch of chances to go away, then finish him off when he has no options left. He didn't learn anything at all, he should have learned from the first time, back on Namek, that he needs to finish off his enemies for the better of his friends and family. And one may argue that he DID, hence why he kills Yakon and Boo, and why he kept saying he'd kill Dabra and Cell. RF suddenly bringing that aspect of Goku's personality back, when it was long gone, made him regress.

Boo is a creature that has hardly any intelligence. In the Japanese version, Kid Buu can't/doesn't even say what he says in the FUNimation dub such as "Me Buu, Not You!" or anything. He/It is a monster made of evil, so of course Goku can kill it. Let's not forget that right before he starts fighting he considers if he could spare him when he sees that Buu just fell asleep standing up. And at the end of the fight he wishes for Buu to come back as a better person rather than just be gone forever. As for Yakon, Goku already knew he was stronger than him. Yakon engaged in the fight willingly and they knew it was a fight to the death, so he had no problem killing him as for the unspoken rules of their fight.

But enemies like Frieza exist as challenges to him. People that he wants to beat for the sake of beating rather than to kill. Toriyama said in one of the old interviews that Kanzenshuu recently put up that Toriyama wrote about the "evil" of Goku (something like that) in that he fought his enemies to be stronger than them, not to save the earth or anything. It also mentioned Toriyama not liking how the anime producers made Goku look more like a hero in the show than he was in the manga. My guess for the reason that Goku had no problem killing Cell was due to him being an android. He was artificially created so he didn't matter.

The only reason we have an issue here is with Yakon, and my reasoning up above is the best I can think of. In my opinion, Goku never learned to just kill anyone at any time throughout the series and this movie is the turning point. He may have a few spots where he just killed or tried to, but so far it seems like there can be an explanation for each, especially Cell and Buu. And for Dabura, let's remember that he turned Krillin and Piccolo to stone. He HAD to kill him to save them. Much different ball game than it was for Freeza or Buu.

[Doctor.]

Boo is a creature that has hardly any intelligence. In the Japanese version, Kid Buu can't/doesn't even say what he says in the FUNimation dub such as "Me Buu, Not You!" or anything. He/It is a monster made of evil, so of course Goku can kill it. Let's not forget that right before he starts fighting he considers if he could spare him when he sees that Buu just fell asleep standing up. And at the end of the fight he wishes for Buu to come back as a better person rather than just be gone forever. As for Yakon, Goku already knew he was stronger than him. Yakon engaged in the fight willingly and they knew it was a fight to the death, so he had no problem killing him as for the unspoken rules of their fight.

The other Boos are not pure evil, and Goku was still adamant about finding a way to kill them. I don't remember Goku ever considering sparring Boo in the manga, you must be mistaken. It doesn't matter if Goku knew Yakon was weaker, he sparred the entire Ginyu Force when they engaged in a fight willingly too, how's this situation any different?

But enemies like Freeza exist as challenges to him. People that he wants to beat for the sake of beating rather than to kill. Toriyama said in one of the old interviews that Kanzenshuu recently put up that Toriyama wrote about the "evil" of Goku (something like that) in that he fought his enemies to be stronger than them, not to save the earth or anything. It also mentioned Toriyama not liking how the anime producers made Goku look more like a hero in the show than he was in the manga. My guess for the reason that Goku had no problem killing Cell was due to him being an android. He was artificially created so he didn't matter.

So you're saying Goku is biased? They all have souls, Goku doesn't discriminate, he wouldn't spare Cell even if he were human, and that's because Goku doesn't spare pure evil people anymore. He actually encouraged Gohan to finish Cell off quicker. There was no line in the manga by him or anyone else that could led you to believe that he tried to kill Cell just because he's (partly) artificial.

The only reason we have an issue here is with Yakon, and my reasoning up above is the best I can think of. In my opinion, Goku never learned to just kill anyone at any time throughout the series and this movie is the turning point. He may have a few spots where he just killed or tried to, but so far it seems like there can be an explanation for each, especially Cell and Buu. And for Dabura, let's remember that he turned Krillin and Piccolo to stone. He HAD to kill him to save them. Much different ball game than it was for Freeza or Buu.

Oh, so trying to use the Dragon Balls or rationalize with Dabra was out of the question?

I'm sorry, but all I see here is you trying to find excuses as to why killed (or tried to). Here's what I know about Goku: In the 23rd TB, Saiyan and Freeza arcs, he spared his evil enemies because they could either prove themselves to be worthy rivals in the future, or he did it out of pity or mercy. In the Cell and Boo arcs, this trait goes away. Not only does he kill and tell others to kill evil beings, but not once does he ever meditate over the thought of leaving x character alive to have a good rival or something of the sort like before. Suddenly in F, he starts doing what he did back in the earlier arcs. I can only interpret this as character regression. Perhaps Toriyama didn't even mean to strip away that trait of Goku's during the original manga's run, sure, but if that's true then he wrote a severely inconsistent character.

[fadeddreams5]

Hmmm... would Goku have spared Cell if he was the SSJ2 instead? I can't see him just mercilessly murdering Cell without at least telling him to leave the planet one more time before doing so.

Only reason he had no problem killing Buu was because that pink creature was fucking nuts. Oh, and Yakon killed himself...

[Doctor.]

Hmmm... would Goku have spared Cell if he was the SSJ2 instead? I can't see him just mercilessly murdering Cell without at least telling him to leave the planet one more time before doing so.

Only reason he had no problem killing Buu was because that pink creature was fucking nuts. Oh, and Yakon killed himself...

He certainly had no problem telling Gohan to kill Cell. Never once did he say "No, stop Gohan! Cell leave the planet now and he'll spare your life", did he? He was actually trying to entice Gohan into killing Cell even quicker. In the Namek arc, he was getting upset that Vegeta was killing (evil) people, here he's getting upset Gohan isn't doing the job quickly enough. I'm not sure what more evidence is needed to prove he's not the same.

Yakon didn't kill himself, we all know what Goku did was on purpose, don't try to cover it up for him. You're trying to find a loophole here, but it's the same as me handing out a gun to someone and saying to look directly into it and press the trigger. I'm not directly responsible, sure, but it's still all me.

[h0kuten]

The only time I remotely felt a sense of tension in Fukkatsu no F is when:

a) 1rst Form Frieza single shotted Base Gohan. I was like dayyuumm.
b) Goku SSJG SS suffered from PIS when he was nearly killed by Sorbet.

[fadeddreams5]

Hmmm... would Goku have spared Cell if he was the SSJ2 instead? I can't see him just mercilessly murdering Cell without at least telling him to leave the planet one more time before doing so.

Only reason he had no problem killing Buu was because that pink creature was fucking nuts. Oh, and Yakon killed himself...

He certainly had no problem telling Gohan to kill Cell. Never once did he say "No, stop Gohan! Cell leave the planet now and he'll spare your life", did he? He was actually trying to entice Gohan into killing Cell even quicker. In the Namek arc, he was getting upset that Vegeta was killing (evil) people, here he's getting upset Gohan isn't doing the job quickly enough. I'm not sure what more evidence is needed to prove he's not the same.

Yakon didn't kill himself, we all know what Goku did was on purpose, don't try to cover it up for him. You're trying to find a loophole here, but it's the same as me handing out a gun to someone and saying to look directly into it and press the trigger. I'm not directly responsible, sure, but it's still all me.

Goku wanted him dead so badly that he gave him a senzu bean.

Yakon was dumb as a sack of bricks. His death was his own fault, not Goku's. He could have closed his mouth at any time. Goku was just feeding him. lol.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Goku wanted him dead so badly that he gave him a senzu bean.

Yakon was dumb as a sack of bricks. His death was his own fault, not Goku's. He could have closed his mouth at any time. Goku was just feeding him. lol.

Exactly. Cell told everyone that he would fight each opponent "one by one until there is no none left" (not the exact quote, but close enough). Goku did not have to give Cell the Senzu Bean, he chose to. And yes, Goku does bias based on certain criteria. Cell had no soul. He's referred to as "it" in the manga because he's not a natural lifeform. He was built for evil and would not change. Other people like Freeza were just raised poorly and became evil, but they also had a soul.

Oh, so trying to use the Dragon Balls or rationalize with Dabra was out of the question?

There are plenty of situations in the series where using the Dragon Balls would work, but they choose not to use them. Why they didn't use them here is anyone's guess, but Supreme Kai says that the only way to revert someone from being turned to stone is for Dabura to die. Goku had no choice. And just because you don't remember Goku's brief period of consideration for Kid Buu doesn't mean it didn't happen. While it's an anime only scene, by that point in the manga Buu had killed all of his friends and loved ones. He had to kill Buu. In addition he technically shouldn't have had a soul as he was a being created from pure evil energy. Again, it's bias.

The point here is that there is no definitive moment in the series where Goku decides to be less sympathetic to villains. When I think of the series, I think of Goku as being too sparing and not being aggressive enough and that's one reason everyone gets into their problems. There is no definitive moment where Goku changes and it's known that there are are a few inconsistencies in the series. But alas, Toriyama took this personality trait of Goku's and finally made it an issue for Goku where he had to change himself, and I think we may see something more come of this in Super. The point for the film is a legit one and it is character development.

[Doctor.]

If #17 and #18 have souls, then I'm pretty sure Cell would have one as well.

I'm not saying the point of the film is not legit. I'm saying that anyone can interpret it as a point that the series already addressed prior to F. This series is very repetitive, character regression is not something new and I've always refused to believe Goku was a static character during the original manga's run. Like I said, all I see are people trying to justify his actions as being consistent with his prior self instead of just taking it in as character development, instead.

[fadeddreams5]

17 and 18 are humans with modified bodies.

Cell is a completely synthetic being. Same as 16, who was never bothered to be revived. lol.

[Doctor.]

17 and 18 are humans with modified bodies.

Cell is a completely synthetic being. Same as 16, who was never bothered to be revived. lol.

Cell's body is still organic, (he's made out of well, cells) not mechanical, and he can create life. He also said, iirc, he could use the Genkidama, and you have the gazillion filler scenes of him in Hell, too. I don't think he's the same type, I don't know, it's confusing lol.

[Cetra]

Goku even asks Kaioh if Cell is in hell already. That was how they noticed he was still alive.

[fadeddreams5]

Goku has something against green monsters and fish. God forbid the next villain is a green fish.

[FoolsGil]

There's definitely a lack of tension sure. And it's because

Spoiler:

we had two Blooper Saiyans and Freeza was strong enough to equal only one of them. If you see the movie, you know Goku almost dies but Vegeta could do the same transformation so Freeza already lost that fight before the first punch was thrown

If Freeza was strong enough to force Goku and Vegeta to work together, there would have been plenty of tension.

[fadeddreams5]

There's definitely a lack of tension sure. And it's because

Spoiler:

we had two Blooper Saiyans and Freeza was strong enough to equal only one of them. If you see the movie, you know Goku almost dies but Vegeta could do the same transformation so Freeza already lost that fight before the first punch was thrown

If Freeza was strong enough to force Goku and Vegeta to work together, there would have been plenty of tension.

Nah. Then you also have to factor in that Frieza nearly shit his pants at the sight of Beerus, and Whis could one-shot him at any time. All it takes is a bowl of ice cream to get one of them to finish off Frieza.

He was a non-threat and never stood a chance.

[Doctor.]

There's definitely a lack of tension sure. And it's because

Spoiler:

we had two Blooper Saiyans and Freeza was strong enough to equal only one of them. If you see the movie, you know Goku almost dies but Vegeta could do the same transformation so Freeza already lost that fight before the first punch was thrown

If Freeza was strong enough to force Goku and Vegeta to work together, there would have been plenty of tension.

Nah. Then you also have to factor in that Freeza nearly shit his pants at the sight of Beerus, and Whis could one-shot him at any time. All it takes is a bowl of ice cream to get one of them to finish off Freeza.

He was a non-threat and never stood a chance.

Boost Freeza's power and have Beerus and Whis dealing with Champa and his assistant in the F arc of Super ^^

[Attitudefan]

The idea of having Beerus making the decisions to kill the Saiyans and not Freeza completely undermines Freeza's character. Before, Freeza was a megalomaniac that was wrought in paranoia and his desires to stay in the top position, much like any real dictator or emperor in the real world. However, taking that motivation away also marginalizes Goku's fight, transformation, and eventual win over Freeza on Namek: Goku was fighting for his friends and for the fallen Saiyans and many other countless planets and peoples that were destroyed by Freeza. Now it is Beerus' fault and takes all the hate off Freeza. So Freeza just becomes a stepping stone and not the end all guy to resolve or justify the actions that were taken leading up to his defeat.

It sucks. Freeza was cool, and a really real-world like villain. Now that is all gone in hindsight.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Beerus and Whis are just attention-extorting killjoys to anyone that's not them; they were supposed to be silly commentary, they ended killing the flow of the fight. I do not have issue with the characters being unsure whether or not they should be afraid of Freeza, I have no issue with Goku and Vegeta ultimately being stronger than Freeza: these are exactly the sort things you pull when you write a story about bringing back a memorable villain over a decade later.

I watched The Slayers Revolution a couple weeks back, and for everything lovable about The Slayers, the series could not commit to a fight scene to save its life. Characters barely throw down for ten seconds before someone stops for another quip, and after enough of this I simply stopped enjoying myself. F reminded me very much of that, not quite as severely.

[GokuRules987]

Not only its one of my worst DBZ movies, i didnt even have any interest rewatching it after already seeing it on the potato cam.
Personally f*ck this movie, Goku being shot and wounded by some laser in his SSJGODSSJ form is just plain f*cked up! No where and I am saying it again, NOWHERE in that scene Goku was actually relaxed! when he teleported to frieza he was being and stared at him seriously, he was not being relaxed and yet he couldn't even dodge or tank some sorbet's laser. GTFO... I hate this movie and i dont consider it canon period!

Besides there are better ways to tell Goku to F*ck off and have Vegeta take a turn fighting Frieza. Maybe like having Vegeta fly in and tell Kakarot to back and let him take it from there. But what they did is just unacceptable, And I'm not going to buy and support this movie.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

There's definitely a lack of tension sure. And it's because

Spoiler:

we had two Blooper Saiyans and Freeza was strong enough to equal only one of them. If you see the movie, you know Goku almost dies but Vegeta could do the same transformation so Freeza already lost that fight before the first punch was thrown

If Freeza was strong enough to force Goku and Vegeta to work together, there would have been plenty of tension.

Nah. Then you also have to factor in that Freeza nearly shit his pants at the sight of Beerus, and Whis could one-shot him at any time. All it takes is a bowl of ice cream to get one of them to finish off Freeza.

He was a non-threat and never stood a chance.

Had Freeza

Spoiler:

mastered his new form then he could've been a true threat.

As Gods, Beerus and Whis didn't care to intervene because they wanted to let things sort themselves out. While they could have one-shotted Freeza, they weren't going to unless he accidentally knocked the ice cream sundae over. But that aside, Freeza could've been a real threat but they decided to go with what they did. I still loved the movie though and plan to see it a second time with some people this coming Wednesday.