The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[LonelyShadow]

Spoiler:

Ultra Buu/Buff Buu vs SSJ3 Gotenks (If you think UB is able to defeat Gotenks them change it for Ultimate Gohan)
Gogeta SSJ/SSJ2 vs Ultimate Gohan
Syn Shenron vs SSGSS Goku or Vegeta
SSGSS Gogeta (FnF) vs SSJ4 Gogeta (End of GT)
Speaking of fusions, has there ever been established an official multiplier for both cases (Potara and Metomorans Dance)?

-Probably Buu; I mean, he'd definitely beat Gotenks (they should be at least equal and Buu has regeneration while Gotenks has a time limit). Gohan, a bit trickier, but maybe 6/10 to Buu.

-Not certain, but I got the impression that Gogeta was a lot stronger than basically any Buu-era hero short of Vegetto.

-Either Goku or Vegeta. Goku wasn't too outmatched against Syn, so the dragon has gotta still be in Vegetto's realm of power, whereas an SSGSS must be way above it.

-Given that, again, SSJ4 Goku/Vegeta are at best at Vegetto's level, and SSGSS Goku/Vegeta are way beyond that, and the amount fusion increases their power should be the same, so the SSGSS version. (Now, if it were SSJ4 Gogeta versus SSJG/SSGSS Goku or Beerus or somebody, he could have a fighting chance; he's the only GT character that comes off as way, waaaay above Vegetto like Beerus was. At least to me.)

Yeah, I actually have Ultra Buu around the same level as Ultimate Gohan, maybe a little stronger. At that point is all based on skill, if Ultra Buu is able to do more than rushing to his opponent with his immense stature and blasting cars with his laser vision, he could probably win, I never felt like Gohan was that gifted with his martial art techniques.

Like I say, I can't trust Toei all that much, they did make the filler with Goku and Piccolo (Post Namek) having trouble lifting a car and Goku and Vegeta SSJ vs Buuhan, but I do think that SSJ Gogeta defeats Gohan with some effort.

I wonder how powerful the SSGSS forms will be after the time GT was suppose to happen passes. Jeez.
They touch the ground and the earth explodes (but only if the Earth is Off-guard.)

[LonelyShadow]

Also, when did Vegeta learned the Fusion Dance? Did he practice in private all this time after watching Goten and Trunks fuse at some point?

GT likes to play it loose with the movies' canonicity, occasionally showing some movie characters escaping from Hell in the Super 17 arc or whatever, so I guess they just figured "it happened in Fusion Reborn, never mind when or how that movie happened, but they've already learned it in another thing we've produced so whatever".

Kind of a dick move by Gohan, Goten and Trunks for not reviving their deceased parents. Seriously Shenron was right in front of them, even if the movie follows a timeline where Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks defeated Super Buu, meaning that the Earth Dragon Balls can't revive the same person twice since the earth wasn't destroyed by KId Buu, which means that Dende didn't remade the Dragon Balls after the Planet was restored eliminating that limitation, they could at least wished a trip to New Namek and ask the namekians nicely to use Porunga. And I don't want any excuses like: "They choose to stay in the afterlife" Vegeta sure didn't look very happy (that's normal) about staying in Hell.

[singsing]

Also, when did Vegeta learned the Fusion Dance? Did he practice in private all this time after watching Goten and Trunks fuse at some point?

GT likes to play it loose with the movies' canonicity, occasionally showing some movie characters escaping from Hell in the Super 17 arc or whatever, so I guess they just figured "it happened in Fusion Reborn, never mind when or how that movie happened, but they've already learned it in another thing we've produced so whatever".

Kind of a dick move by Gohan, Goten and Trunks for not reviving their deceased parents. Seriously Shenron was right in front of them, even if the movie follows a timeline where Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks defeated Super Buu, meaning that the Earth Dragon Balls can't revive the same person twice since the earth wasn't destroyed by KId Buu, which means that Dende didn't remade the Dragon Balls after the Planet was restored eliminating that limitation, they could at least wished a trip to New Namek and ask the namekians nicely to use Porunga. And I don't want any excuses like: "They choose to stay in the afterlife" Vegeta sure didn't look very happy (that's normal) about staying in Hell.

Goku for sure chose to stay in the afterlife though.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Gogeta SSJ/SSJ2 vs Ultimate Gohan

I'd personally say Gohan has a chance against even SS3 Gogeta. I think he's slightly stronger and can win if he exploits Gogeta's strain and time limit.

[supercat]

Spoiler:

Hopefully the vast majority of these inconsistencies will be rectified in Super.

Personally, the two most intolerable ones boil down to the 1.3 million line and Piccolo getting decked in the face by some lackey who was stated to be on par with a weakling who had long established himself as a fodder.

Ultra Buu/Buff Buu vs SSJ3 Gotenks (If you think UB is able to defeat Gotenks them change it for Ultimate Gohan)
Gogeta SSJ/SSJ2 vs Ultimate Gohan
Syn Shenron vs SSGSS Goku or Vegeta
SSGSS Gogeta (FnF) vs SSJ4 Gogeta (End of GT)
Speaking of fusions, has there ever been established an official multiplier for both cases (Potara and Metomorans Dance)?

First and foremost, welcome LonelyShadow!

-SSJ3 Gotenks only seemed marginally stronger than Super Buu, so I doubt he could really tangle with Buff Buu, who I imagine is only inferior to Buuhan, Buutenks, and Buucolo (possibly).

-Either form of Gogeta wins this with minimal effort in my opinion. Although it's a commonly believed notion that Gogeta is leagues below his counterpart Vegetto, I personally feel that the difference isn't that substantial, and that if we exclude the new movies and Super, the former proudly sits in second place as far as raw power is concerned.

-If we're talking strictly Syn Shenron and not Omega, then either Saiyan would win with minimal effort. Omega, however, would turn the tables after a long and dragged out battle.

-SSGSS Gogeta could probably effortlessly defeat his SSJ4 counterpart. I always felt that SSJ4 Gogeta was a bit over hyped.

As for multipliers, I can't recall any specific numbers that have been correlated with either method of fusion. From my understanding, results can vary depending on a number of different variables.

Below are some numbers that I like to use when engaging in discussions pertaining to the comparison of GT and BoG / FnF.

Whis: 15

SSJ4 Gogeta: 12 - 13 (He was unable to obliterate Omega Shenron, despite hitting him with a Big Bang Kamehameha, while Whis was able to render Beerus unconscious with an effortless chop)

Beerus: 10

Omega Shenron: 8 - 8.5 (Although he was clearly above the SSJ4 duo, they were still able to endure quite a few of his attacks)

Golden Freeza: 8

SSGSS Goku / Vegeta: 7 - 7.5

SSG Goku (BoG): 6

Base Goku (FnF): 4.5 - 5

Super 17 (energy absorbed) : 5.5

Final Form Freeza (FnF): 4

SSJ4 Goku: 4.5 (but could very well be on the same level as SSJ Vegetto)

SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc): 2 - 2.5

Hey there, thank you for your warm welcome! I appreciate it, especially these days, when it's really hard to find kindness on the Internet.

Yeah, I always though that Buff Buu was between Buutenks and Buuccolo based on the reaction, both Goku and Vegeta had when he was transforming back.
Although, I never understood how: Kid Buu + Southern Supreme Kai = Buff Buu > Super Buu, at least I have an answer to all those ads with photos that say: "I got ripped in 3 seconds." Absorbing.

I guess that Gogeta SSJ wins with some effort, unless we have an official multiplier for the Fusion Dance we'll never know how strong he was in the movie... It's always about how powerful does Toei want to make their character look like. Gogeta's performance against Super Janemba (which I believe is a little stronger than Super Buu) was very impressive, so was Gohan's against Buu-Buu, either way, 30 minutes if more than enough time to finish Gohan off.

The God's power up is way to high. PentaKill secured. If it was Omega against one of them he wins, if the battle is against both Saiyans, he puts up a good fight, but the result is quite obvious, a case similar to what could happen to Beerus or could have happened to Golden Freeza.

Like I said before, the new power up is too OP, I actually just watched the episode where Gogeta SSJ4 appears with a friend of mine who really likes GT, I have to say, his performance against Omega wasn't as impressive as I remember, even he was all like: "Why didn't he just finish him off?"
SSJ2 Gohan did a way better job against Perfect Cell and he was like 1.6 - 1.8 stronger than him. If Gogeta couldn't finish Omega with a Big Bag Kamehameha straight up to the face (where's your Stardust Breaker now?!) then I can be sure that he is indeed overrated. I'm pretty sure, both Whis and his counterpart SSGSS can defeat him.

Also, when did Vegeta learned the Fusion Dance? Did he practice in private all this time after watching Goten and Trunks fuse at some point?

Anyways, thank you for giving your opinion about the subject, have a nice day.

I'm definitely going to have to agree with you on the fact that Gogeta's display of power against Omega wasn't nearly as impressive as people make it out to be. The Big Bang Kamehameha failing to do its job is a strong indicator that the former wasn't worlds above the latter, who I imagine is a few notches weaker than Beerus.

[Methuselah]

Ultra Buu/Buff Buu vs SSJ3 Gotenks (If you think UB is able to defeat Gotenks them change it for Ultimate Gohan)

Ultra Buu can likely beat Gotenks, but he should lose to Gohan. I don't remember anything that indicates Buff Buu was overwhelmingly stronger than his "Super" counterpart to the point he can take on Gohan.

Gogeta SSJ/SSJ2 vs Ultimate Gohan

Gogeta would have to be SSJ2 to win, IMO.

Syn Shenron vs SSGSS Goku or Vegeta

I usually stay away from these Gods versus GT things, but I'll take a stab at it now and say Syn/Yi Xing Long would win, given the enormous power creep in GT that started with Super Baby 1. That form of Baby is likely above Super Vegetto, and it only got worse from there.

SSGSS Gogeta (FnF) vs SSJ4 Gogeta (End of GT)

With what I said above, I'd be inclined to give the nod to SSJ4 Gogeta.

[Captain Space]

That form of Baby is likely above Super Vegetto, and it only got worse from there.

Unlikely, given that SSJ4 Goku is supposedly "maybe as strong as Super Vegetto" or however it's worded (might've been that Vegetto is "maybe even stronger than SSJ4 Goku" or somesuch). So I tend to put Vegetto slightly above SSJ4 Goku, and Beerus is said to be vastly more powerful than Vegetto, so...

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's not unlikely when Goku calls Super Vegeta-Baby 1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt, and Super Vegeta-Baby 1 calls himself the "greatest of Saiyan power" after transforming, despite already being the greatest of current Saiyans prior to transforming. Both of these people also have memories of being Vegetto.

[Captain Space]

It's not unlikely when Goku calls Super Vegeta-Baby 1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt, and Super Vegeta-Baby 1 calls himself the "greatest of Saiyan power" after transforming, despite already being the greatest of current Saiyans prior to transforming. Both of these people also have memories of being Vegetto.

Hmm, that's true. You could put the first down to Goku referring to other peoples' ki (and maybe memories of Vegetto don't count as "being himself" or whatever in terms of ki he's experienced), and the second down to arrogance or just reasserting himself...buuut those are both just "you could say this" kinda things.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

buuut those are both just "you could say this" kinda things.

Yeah, I don't mind if you interpret it differently or choose to place Vegetto on par with SS4 Goku, I just don't see the notion of SVB1 surpassing Super Vegetto unlikely, when Base Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta-Baby was even stronger than SS3 Goku.

[supercat]

After carefully evaluating a number of different subtle clues and hints, I firmly believe that anyone in the Baby arc is a complete fodder in comparison to Final Form Frieza (FnF) and up.

To sum it all up..

-Beerus was implied to be worlds above SSJ Vegetto, while the latter was more or less stated to be on par with SSJ4 Goku.

-SSJ4 Goku being able to tolerate a nasty beating from Omega Shenron (GT's strongest villain) shows that the former is not worlds below the latter. This in turn reinforces the notion that Beerus is likely a few notches above the Shadow Dragon.

-Despite unleashing what is arguably his best attack, SSJ4 Gogeta was unable to rid the Earth of Omega Shenron. On the contrary, all it took was an effortless chop from Whis to fully knock Beerus out.

Whis > SSJ4 Gogeta > Beerus > Omega Shenron >/= Golden Frieza > SSGSS Goku / Vegeta > SSG Goku (BoG) > Base Goku (FnF) > Super 17 (Energy absorbed) > Final Form Frieza (FnF) > SSJ4 Goku > SSJ Vegetto

[Hellspawn28]

Also, when did Vegeta learned the Fusion Dance? Did he practice in private all this time after watching Goten and Trunks fuse at some point?
:

He saw Goku in the After Life going SSj3. He was most likely watching everyone going on Earth when he was in After Life. Vegeta didn't want to do the fusion dance against Super Buu inside Buu's body.

[Methuselah]

Probably done before, but:

Perfect Cell (at the level when he fought Goku) vs Base Bojack

[Lord Beerus]

Probably done before, but:

Perfect Cell (at the level when he fought Goku) vs Base Bojack

Cell wrecks Bojack.

[LonelyShadow]

Also, when did Vegeta learned the Fusion Dance? Did he practice in private all this time after watching Goten and Trunks fuse at some point?
:

He saw Goku in the After Life going SSj3. He was most likely watching everyone going on Earth when he was in After Life. Vegeta didn't want to do the fusion dance against Super Buu inside Buu's body.

Oh man. I can just imagine Vegeta watching Goten and Trunks doing the dance, shocked and embarrassed by his son's performance.
And of course, after reading this, I can see Vegeta practicing in front of a mirror, also, I love how did Vegeta manage do the fusion right after 1 failure in the movie.

[Captain Space]

also, I love how did Vegeta manage do the fusion right after 1 failure in the movie.

The prince of all saiyans will not be outdone by some third-class warrior, whether on the battlefield or on the dancefloor!

[LonelyShadow]

Spoiler:

also, I love how did Vegeta manage do the fusion right after 1 failure in the movie.

The prince of all saiyans will not be outdone by some third-class warrior, whether on the battlefield or on the dancefloor!

That's how badass he is.

Spoiler:

It's not unlikely when Goku calls Super Vegeta-Baby 1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt, and Super Vegeta-Baby 1 calls himself the "greatest of Saiyan power" after transforming, despite already being the greatest of current Saiyans prior to transforming. Both of these people also have memories of being Vegetto.

I love it when Goku says: "this is the greatest Ki I've ever felt" which translates to: "We need to make this situation more tense". It feels like he says that every week.

I honestly don't know if Goku was able to remember how big his power was when he was Vegito, I'm going to guess that he did not, and if he did, he was probably referring to Baby Vegeta as "The Strongest" due to his position as the antagonist while he was ignoring Vegito.

If the anime comics states that: "Vegito is perhaps even stronger than a Super Saiyan 4", Then I'll buy it.

Since GT was made by Toei it has to follow all of the filler that happened in Z IMO, so... if: Super Vegito ≥ SSJ4 GT Goku > Base Vegito > Buuhan > Omega Shenron (Off-Guard) > Super Buu > Base GT Goku > Kid Buu ≥ SSJ3 Goku, I don't see any problem with Goku being as strong as his Potara Counterpart after many years of training and consuming drugs that lead him to take some vacations in Hawaii, turning his skin darker.

Also, I really don't trust Goku statements, there were many times where he was proven wrong, just like in his fight against Kid Buu in which he thought that he was able to defeat him as a SSJ3, even if he went full power I don't see him being all that strong compared to Kid Buu, if many attacks from Super Vegito didn't obliterate Buuhan even with his immense power (which isn't what he wanted), then, how could a Full Power SSJ3 Goku defeat Kid Buu?

Quoting a lot of people of the Dragon Ball community: "GT is weird", if Omega was X10 stronger than Syn, how did he not wreck the Saiyans at level 4 just like Ultimate Gohan did with Super Buu or SSJ2 Gohan with Cell? Sadly, when the GT writers try to talk about Power Levels they have a level much inferior to the current DC. They tend to take the parts that benefit their story and forget about important parts that also are primordial for the base of the plot itself.

[Methuselah]

Also, I really don't trust Goku statements, there were many times where he was proven wrong, just like in his fight against Kid Buu in which he thought that he was able to defeat him as a SSJ3, even if he went full power I don't see him being all that strong compared to Kid Buu, if many attacks from Super Vegito didn't obliterate Buuhan even with his immense power (which isn't what he wanted), then, how could a Full Power SSJ3 Goku defeat Kid Buu?

Goku didn't take into account the stamina drain earlier and Vegetto was toying with Buuhan. I have zero reason to mistrust Goku's statement of Super Baby's power and also zero reason to believe he excluded Super Vegetto, since I think it's going into mental gymnastics territory.

Quoting a lot of people of the Dragon Ball community: "GT is weird", if Omega was X10 stronger than Syn, how did he not wreck the Saiyans at level 4 just like Ultimate Gohan did with Super Buu or SSJ2 Gohan with Cell? Sadly, when the GT writers try to talk about Power Levels they have a level much inferior to the current DC. They tend to take the parts that benefit their story and forget about important parts that also are primordial for the base of the plot itself.

Omega Shenron was toying with them. Simple.

This will be the last I say about this since I don't want to clog up this thread with that topic, which probably has been argued back and forth a couple of times already.

[Noah]

New matchs (equal power and limited stamina):

- Android 14 x Zarbon
- Bujin x Android 19
- Coola x Mirai Gohan
- Dr. Wheelo x Dr. Gero
- FPSSJ Gohan (Android Arc) x FPSSJ Gohan (Boo Arc)
- Goten x Tambourine
- Kid Boo x Super Android 17
- Son Gohan (Uranai Baba Arc) x Bardock (TV Special 1)
- Vegeta (3 years training for the Androids) x Mecha Freeza
- Yajirobe x Piccolo Daimaoh

[LonelyShadow]

Goku didn't take into account the stamina drain earlier and Vegetto was toying with Buuhan. I have zero reason to mistrust Goku's statement of Super Baby's power and also zero reason to believe he excluded Super Vegetto, since I think it's going into mental gymnastics territory.

I can understand how the quick stamina drain for being alive took Goku by surprise, I was trying to say that, as far as I know, Goku didn't show an incredibly amazing and powerful technique strong enough to destroy Buu with his almost infinite regeneration, I'm pretty sure that Goku SSJ3 at "full power" could actually defeat Kid Buu in combat (kind like SSJ2 Vegeta vs Buu but less embarassing), but kill it is another thing.

Omega Shenron was toying with them. Simple.

This will be the last I say about this since I don't want to clog up this thread with that topic, which probably has been argued back and forth a couple of times already.

I watched the battle again, yes, he was toying with them, the question is: "why?" he is a villian, he doesn't care if he kills his opponent, if he is that powerful he should kill them the same way Gohan did with the Cell Jrs, hell, he couldn't even kill Gohan with a heavy punch in the gut, I just think that the whole X10 is a little bit too exaggerated compared to what a character being twice as strong as another means. I understand and respect if you don't want to keep talking about the whole: "GT power levels are poopy heheheh" if it isn't entertaining for you we can leave it like that.

New matchs (equal power and limited stamina):

- Android 14 x Zarbon
- Bujin x Android 19
- Coola x Mirai Gohan
- Dr. Wheelo x Dr. Gero
- FPSSJ Gohan (Android Arc) x FPSSJ Gohan (Boo Arc)
- Goten x Tambourine
- Kid Boo x Super Android 17
- Son Gohan (Uranai Baba Arc) x Bardock (TV Special 1)
- Vegeta (3 years training for the Androids) x Mecha Freeza
- Yajirobe x Piccolo Daimaoh

- Android 14.
- Bujin.
- Mirai Gohan was able to keep up with 2 oponents as strong as he, so yeah, he lacks power but his skills are remarkable.
- Android Arc Gohan, if they have the same power what is the difference between being SSJ or not?
- Goten.
- Kid Buu. I always felt like Kid Buu's wild nature was reflected perfectly in his battle, hell even the wiki says it and it's also seen in many video games, usually he is Top Tier. SA17 never showed us great skills, he was only powerful for the time and got better energy absortion technique.
- Son Gohan can't fly, I'm pretty sure that Bardock can take advantage of that.
- If Yajirobe is allowed to use his sword he could probably win.