Gohan theory

[Galan007]

But how is that different than just charging up ki in base form? My point is that (while he charges up to increase ki output like everyone in base form does), it's not a transformation - or at least there's nothing to indicate that it is.

I'm not saying Gohan's Mystic state is a transformation, per se. I'm saying that it is a 'level' he has to consciously access/tap-into. He doesn't just walk around touting that level of power 24/7(which is what you seemed to be implying in your previous post)--he can turn it on/off as needed.

[zcherub]

But how is that different than just charging up ki in base form? My point is that (while he charges up to increase ki output like everyone in base form does), it's not a transformation - or at least there's nothing to indicate that it is.

I'm not saying Gohan's Mystic state is a transformation, per se. I'm saying that it is a 'level' he has to consciously access/tap-into. He doesn't just walk around touting that level of power 24/7(which is what you seemed to be implying in your previous post)--he can turn it on/off as needed.

Let me put it another way - if you hit your absolute limit/ceiling when you "charge up" in base form (not by transforming), why would you then transform (presumably spending more ki) only to arrive at the same ceiling you were already at?

[Galan007]

I don't think you're understanding me? Gohan does need to consciously 'charge up' his Mystic state(I provided 2 different examples of him doing so.) This means he isn't always walking around with that level of power.

ie. he can turn it on/off as needed.

[zcherub]

I don't think you're understanding me? Gohan does need to consciously 'charge up' his Mystic state(I provided 2 different examples of him doing so.) This means he isn't always walking around with that level of power.

ie. he can turn it on/off as needed.

So by that logic, base Goku (or anyone else) charging up ki to go from a relaxed state to combat-ready is the same as transforming & they turn it on/off.

Even if that's the case, let's assume we're taking about combat-ready Gohan & not just-brushin-muh-teefs Gohan - he's turned on his "Ultimate" form as you say. Why go SSJ if he's already at his cap/max?

[Galan007]

So by that logic, base Goku (or anyone else) charging up ki to go from a relaxed state to combat-ready is the same as transforming & they turn it on/off.

That's exactly what he's doing: charging-up his Mystic power. This is not just my opinion, this is fact. Did you not look at the examples I provided?

Why go SSJ if he's already at his cap/max?

Because Gohan has presumably lost the 'Mystic' power-up, due to lack of continued training.

If he has always been able to stack SSJ on top of his Mystic form, then he would have done so against Bootenks and/or Beerus. The fact that he didn't tells me that he couldn't.

[zcherub]

So by that logic, base Goku (or anyone else) charging up ki to go from a relaxed state to combat-ready is the same as transforming & they turn it on/off.

That's exactly what he's doing: charging-up his Mystic power. This is not just my opinion, this is fact. Did you not look at the examples I provided?

Why go SSJ if he's already at his cap/max?

Because Gohan has presumably lost the 'Mystic' power-up, due to lack of continued training.

If he has always been able to stack SSJ on top of his Mystic form, then he would have done so against Bootenks and/or Beerus. The fact that he didn't tells me that he couldn't.

I saw the scans. It was base Gohan charging up like dozens had done since DB. The Kaioshin's ceremony wasn't even done yet.

The fact he didn't transform tells you he COULDN'T. It tells me he didn't NEED to. I'm running out of ways to say it - I'm of the opinion that his limit was his limit, and "Mystic" ceremony put him at that limit. SSJ has been shown to cost ki and (to some extent) be difficult to maintain AS opposed to a charged up base, so if there's no ki output to be gained, why go SSJ? It was a matter of it being unnecessary at the time, not a matter of him functionally being incapable.

You can relax - I'm not arguing, just my take on it.

[Galan007]

I saw the scans. It was base Gohan charging up like dozens had done since DB. The Kaioshin's ceremony wasn't even done yet.

Incorrect. Elder Kaioshin's ritual was complete by then.

Here's the page that immediately precedes the scene I posted:

Spoiler:

The fact he didn't transform tells you he COULDN'T. It tells me he didn't NEED to. I'm running out of ways to say it - I'm of the opinion that his limit was his limit, and "Mystic" ceremony put him at that limit. SSJ has been shown to cost ki and (to some extent) be difficult to maintain AS opposed to a charged up base, so if there's no ki output to be gained, why go SSJ? It was a matter of it being unnecessary at the time, not a matter of him functionally being incapable.

The point of Elder Kaioshin's ritual was to draw out all of Gohan's latent potential, and make the entirety of his power accessible in his base level. Because of this, SSJ became completely superfluous.

If Gohan could have stacked SSJ on top of his Mystic form(thereby amping his Mystic power by a factor of 50x), he certainly would have done so against Bootenks and/or Beerus, instead of just allowing them to beat he and his loved ones mercilessly.

So yeah, the fact that he didn't tells me that he couldn't.

[zcherub]

The point of Elder Kaioshin's ritual was to draw out all of Gohan's latent potential, and make the entirety of his power accessible in his base level. Because of this, SSJ became completely superfluous.

That we agree on. I just feel that gohan could have gone SSJ, but because he was at his max, he would not have received the 50x boost. It would have been a useless cosmetic change so he refrained. Maybe I'm wrong....

[Truhan]

However, with all things said, if Gohan trained so that his power at base, multiplied by SSJ or SSJ2, surpassed that of his Hidden Potential, he could make use of them again. If his Ultimate state is all of his potential unleashed, then it must be a fixed value, because Saiyans have no ceilings.

[Taskmaster]

One thing is Gohan didn't get a zenkai after the thrashing Buu gave him, it's probably his limit.