Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[KentalSSJ6]

Incorrect regardless.

Not to sound rude, but if your going to debate with someone who knows what he's talking about, please turn your brain on first before trying to make a argument.

[Kaboom]

This embarrassing and not to mention borderline off-topic "conversation" is now over. Any more petty bickering and snide "you're wrong, I'm right, period" remarks will be met with moderator action.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm still trying to understand the context of this Gotenks' discussion. What exactly are you talking about? Does it have to do with that supposed Viz picture? It seems like the translation is not reliable, according to Herms.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nope.

Things that happened in the script didn't happen on screen It's common fact Toei doesn't use all of Toriyama's ideas, that is 100% fact.

Except that Kame-sennin asks the same thing in both the script & the movie, and doesn't take Jaco into account. Toriyama himself even implies that Jaco is the weakest of the group, and the movie doesn't contradict this.

[h0kuten]

This embarrassing and not to mention borderline off-topic "conversation" is now over. Any more petty bickering and snide "you're wrong, I'm right, period" remarks will be met with moderator action.

Understood >.>

[ahill1]

I think Goku SSJ sick(power up) > Android 20(initial) > Android 19(initial) > Goku SSJ sick(initial) > Goku SSJ(yardrat saga)

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Androids #19 and #20

I mean, really, some ugly clown and old man who weren't very relevant to the plot being stronger than the former Emperor of the Universe? Let's be rational now.

[RandomGuy96]

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Androids #19 and #20

I mean, really, some ugly clown and old man who weren't very relevant to the plot being stronger than the former Emperor of the Universe? Let's be rational now.

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Saiyan arc Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freeza. I mean, really, some ugly midget vibrator thing with no backstory besides the fact that he occasionally kills people and takes their stuff being stronger than the strongest warrior of the strongest warrior race? Let's be rational now.

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Androids #18 and #17. I mean, really, some bratty teenagers with cybernetic enhancements being stronger than the former second or third in command of a land shark racket in some parts of the North Galaxy Emperor of the Universe? Let's be rational now.

I don't think Gero and #19 are stronger than Freeza at first, mainly because Gohan being more than half as strong as future 17, and Trunks initially being mistaken for Namek SS Goku, makes it hard to bloat things. I also think that energized 19 is significantly stronger than energized 20. I don't see the latter being able to make SS Vegeta bleed or survive multiple blows from him.

[dbgtFO]

I think Goku SSJ sick(power up) > Android 20(initial) > Android 19(initial) > Goku SSJ sick(initial) > Goku SSJ(yardrat saga)

Well #19 certainly wasn't stronger than initial Sick Goku, unless #19 was lacking in the speed department.

[LightBing]

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Androids #19 and #20

I mean, really, some ugly clown and old man who weren't very relevant to the plot being stronger than the former Emperor of the Universe? Let's be rational now.

I agree, although the appearance has nothing to do with their perceived power. It's well implied in the manga. Believing Yamcha would be useful energy and mistaking him initially with Goku. Meaning they had measured the possible progress of Goku to be between 100.000 and 2.000.000 (were Yamcha may stand). With their supreme confidence they should be a good bit above that; but might not even reach 50% Freeza without absorbing energy.

[ahill1]

You could have it:

Vegeta SSJ(android arc) 100
Goku SSJ(android arc) 96
Future Trunks SSJ(android arc) 90
Piccolo(android arc) 80
Android 20(post) 66
Android 19(post) 66
Goku SSJ sick(power up) 66
Android 20(pre) 56
Android 19(pre) 50.4
Goku SSJ sick(initial) 45.7
Goku SSJ(yardrat saga) 40
Future Trunks SSJ(yardrat saga) 32
Future Gohan SSJ(1 arm) 30
Android 17(27%) 27

Seems about right.

[Doctor.]

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Androids #19 and #20

I mean, really, some ugly clown and old man who weren't very relevant to the plot being stronger than the former Emperor of the Universe? Let's be rational now.

I agree, although the appearance has nothing to do with their perceived power. It's well implied in the manga. Believing Yamcha would be useful energy and mistaking him initially with Goku. Meaning they had measured the possible progress of Goku to be between 100.000 and 2.000.000 (were Yamcha may stand). With their supreme confidence they should be a good bit above that; but might not even reach 50% Freeza without absorbing energy.

You also have a later line, by Kuririn, where he asks Goku if he's scared a stronger opponent than Freeza showed up, that's after Goku wakes up from his coma (so, right after #17, #18 and Cell make their appearance). I don't know why he'd ask this if #19 and Gero were already stronger, in that case he would have asked earlier.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku was already aware of #17,#18, and Cell though.

Also, if we're going to go with Krillin (and the rest of the Zet Senshi) knowing #20 post-absorption's strength, isn't it weird no one ever pointed out that #20 was actually weaker than Trunks from 3 years back?

[Doctor.]

Goku was already aware of #17,#18, and Cell though.

Yes, and I assume they're who Kuririn was referring to when he asked Goku if he was scared or excited an opponent stronger than Freeza showed up. I think he wouldn't have asked something like that if #19 and #20 were already stronger, would be pretty redundant.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I figured it was more about Cell.

Personally, I think #19 and #20 being weaker than Freeza makes a lot more things "redundant" than just Krillin's comment.

[Doctor.]

I figured it was more about Cell.

Personally, I think #19 and #20 being weaker than Freeza makes a lot more things "redundant" than just Krillin's comment.

It was, but it applies to #17 and #18 too obviously, since Goku didn't meet them before waking up.

Such as?

Also, if we're going to go with Krillin (and the rest of the Zet Senshi) knowing #20 post-absorption's strength, isn't it weird no one ever pointed out that #20 was actually weaker than Trunks from 3 years back?

Why would it be weird? There were two of them. It's perfectly believable that Trunks could be stronger and not take them out because they overwhelm him in numbers.

[ahill1]

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Androids #19 and #20

I mean, really, some ugly clown and old man who weren't very relevant to the plot being stronger than the former Emperor of the Universe? Let's be rational now.

I agree, although the appearance has nothing to do with their perceived power. It's well implied in the manga. Believing Yamcha would be useful energy and mistaking him initially with Goku. Meaning they had measured the possible progress of Goku to be between 100.000 and 2.000.000 (were Yamcha may stand). With their supreme confidence they should be a good bit above that; but might not even reach 50% Freeza without absorbing energy.

You also have a later line, by Kuririn, where he asks Goku if he's scared a stronger opponent than Freeza showed up, that's after Goku wakes up from his coma (so, right after #17, #18 and Cell make their appearance). I don't know why he'd ask this if #19 and Gero were already stronger, in that case he would have asked earlier.

Krillin also said that the Androids 19 and 20 are terrible as Future Trunks had predicted.
When Piccolo wins Gero he opens the possibility of androids are indeed true and the Z warriors have been very strong for them - if 19 and 20 were weaker than Freeza there'd only be one response to Piccolo: "they cannot be the real androids".

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It was, but it applies to #17 and #18 too obviously, since Goku didn't meet them before waking up.

Yes, but Goku saw what was going on in his dreams.

Such as?

Piccolo even considering the possibility of Android #20 being strong enough to whoop Trunks from 3 years back. Let's say #20 post is weaker than Freeza, we get this chain:

Androids (expected) > SS Trunks >> Mecha Freeza > Organic Freeza > Android #20

Now what kind of drugs is Piccolo on if he considers #20 to be as strong as expected?

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Also, Vegeta only says the Androids weren't as bad as made out to be, he didn't completely dismiss Trunks' word as meaningless nonsense and take away all credibility from Trunks.

Why would it be weird? There were two of them. It's perfectly believable that Trunks could be stronger and not take them out because they overwhelm him in numbers.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3
Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…”

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks" “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Mecha arc Trunks stronger than the expected Androids?

[LightBing]

Krillin also said that the Androids 19 and 20 are terrible as Future Trunks had predicted.
When Piccolo wins Gero he opens the possibility of androids are indeed true and the Z warriors have been very strong for them - if 19 and 20 were weaker than Freeza there'd only be one response to Piccolo: "they cannot be the real androids".

Is this the quote you're referencing?
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Because this line further illustrates the weakness of #19 and #20, he's doubting the level of threat Future Trunks told them the androids were.

[Doctor.]

Yes, but Goku saw what was going on in his dreams.

Still don't understand why that's important to Kuririn's line.

Piccolo even considering the possibility of Android #20 being strong enough to whoop Trunks from 3 years back. Let's say #20 post is weaker than Freeza, we get this chain:

Androids (expected) > SS Trunks >> Mecha Freeza > Organic Freeza > Android #20

Now what kind of drugs is Piccolo on if he considers #20 to be as strong as expected?

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Also, Vegeta only says the Androids weren't as bad as made out to be, he didn't completely dismiss Trunks' word as meaningless nonsense and take away all credibility from Trunks.

I don't put SS Trunks that above Mecha Freeza, but irrelevant anyway.

#20 had already absorbed energy at that point of the battle, so did #19 when Vegeta arrived at that battlefield, not sure why that's relevant to prove that the androids were stronger than Freeza from the start.

Mecha arc Trunks stronger than the expected Androids?

A sick Goku not too much stronger than 3 years back was stronger, so what's the big deal here?