New Animation VS Old Animation

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Avery » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:56 am

HybridSaiyan wrote:I've just took a front face view of the Original Super Saiyan 3 Goku face and compared it to the new Super art style and the change is phenomenal

Original
Super
Why is it that I prefer the Original over Supers by a landslide? It just HAS that much more depth, tone and superior shading.
Super just looks flat and plastic, totally has nothing going for it at all.
The shadows on the cheeks are just annoying, and the cheek bones themselves look different and sloppy. The plastic shine makes things much worse than you think too.
Still, we shoud wait for more episodes to come out in order to make better comparisons, since
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:16 am

Anyone else like the stuff they did with the lines in the last episode of Super? I wasn't too sure about it before seeing the ep itself but I really like deepening the lines for stuff at the front then drawing them regularly as they pull into the background. Gives the show some style it hasn't had since the new animation showed up.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Ajay » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:55 am

Yes, it was the most creative episode we'd had so far, and you definitely hit the nail on the head as to why it's so effective. I'd like to expand on and that and also talk a bit about the expressiveness of Toma's work. Sadly, few are willing to look past their initial kneejerk of unfamiliarity to actually judge the quality of the episode.

I spoke about this in Episode 4's discussion thread, but I'll repeat it here. Being on-model isn't a prerequisite for good animation. Some of Z's best looking episodes are the furthest thing from on-model. Studio Cockpit are constantly praised for their work in the Boo arc, but it looks absolutely nothing like the character sheets. Nor does it absolutely need to. Animators should be given a degree of freedom to create interesting work. It's painfully tiring to read the same "it's off-model!" responses over and over. It's about as tiring as seeing "budget" thrown around as though it's the only thing that matters. Hint: it's not.

Seizo Toma's work on Episode 4 should be praised. First, let's take a look at the sheer variety of wonderful expressions featured in just one scene as an example:
That's genius work. It's cartoon expressiveness down to a T. But it's being ignored because so few will look past their distaste or unfamiliarity with such thick lines. I could go on forever about how well the teeth were realised throughout the episode. Or the cutesy faces that many of the characters pulled. There was a level of detail to each character that we hadn't seen in Super before. You can't even begin to imagine my surprise and frustration upon reading all the negative reactions.

Goku's Kamehameha, though not quite as detailed as its movie counterpart, uses Toma's heavy line weight to accentuate the depth of the scene (something you rightly noted). Beginning with thicker lines around the jaw, Goku's expression is pushed forwards into the scene. Pulling back, the lines become thinner, with the arms taking on the weight to bring them into the scene. Hands are now the forefront of the image, so they become the thickest. Begin pulling back and everything starts to shrink down a little. Everything's important in the scene now, so the image becomes balanced as Goku poses for this medium shot. Put it all together and you've got one marvelous build up to the attack.

You actually see a similar technique in this in-between from Episode 5's preview. Speaking of which, that episode looks like it's gonna be a lot better than what we got in the film. Just look at that glare! Really looking forward to seeing this properly, too.

I should probably write about the difference between bad character models and bad animation. That's something that's not being separated enough in a lot of the criticism I'm reading. I'm pretty sure most of us hate Yamamuro's designs, but I don't think it's fair to lump all the new animation under 'shit' because of it.

Super has a lot of problems; its narrative is meandering along without focus. I can fully appreciate the criticisms there, and I do agree that Episode 4 is not a touch on the humour we saw in Battle of Gods. But man, the animation is just not the issue to pick at this week.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Doctor. » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:24 am

I think the issue comes from the thick lines being present unnecessarily. With Whis, for example, the bold lines weren't adding any more depth to the drawing, they were just there, they were awkward looking. This shot of Beerus is brilliantly done, however, and a perfect example of it done right.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:30 am

The thing that bothers me is how the fights scenes have been handled In Dragon Ball lately, everything just feels rushed and anti-climatic.
Do you guys think we'll ever get such amazing detail in fights like some of the hardcore old Dragon Ball fights we have had?

I mean, this animation is probably one of the best pieces I've witnessed and it was such an epic fight that let off a very intense vibe.
Now looking how todays fight scenes are handled truly upsets me..

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Doctor. » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:50 am

Those are from Heroes commercials and video game openings, it's obvious they're gonna look bad. At least judge the current animation from the movies and Super.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:55 am

Doctor. wrote:Those are from Heroes commercials and video game openings, it's obvious they're gonna look bad. At least judge the current animation from the movies and Super.
Yeah, but it's just an example. The battles from BoG weren't entertaining for me. So much flashy colors and camara angles flying all over the place. It just looked like a colorful mess with no threat or impact.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Ajay » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:55 am

Doctor. wrote:I think the issue comes from the thick lines being present unnecessarily. With Whis, for example, the bold lines weren't adding any more depth to the drawing, they were just there, they were awkward looking.
Personally, I thought they made him look like quite a (forgive the pun) bold figure. But don't get me wrong, it's fine to dislike the style, but those lines don't make the animation bad. They're not to certain people's tastes, but there's nothing technically wrong with them. That's pretty much what I'm trying to get at. If something isn't to someone's taste, that's fine, but I don't think it's very fair to push an opinion onto something that's fine on a technical level.
HybridSaiyan wrote:The thing that bothers me is how the fights scenes have been handled In Dragon Ball lately, everything just feels rushed and anti-climatic.
Do you guys think we'll ever get such amazing detail in fights like some of the hardcore old Dragon Ball fights we have had?
This isn't a very accurate comparison. The fight from Episode #232 that you've linked is an exception, rather than the standard. Most of Dragon Ball and Z look far more like those modern examples. Which, as Doctor noted, aren't really acceptable comparisons at all. Those are from commercials and don't bear a whole lot of resemblance to the animation seen in the latest films.

Tadayoshi Yamamuro animated that Z scene, and he's been the animation director for the past two films. He's never quite lived up to his work of old, but you can see hints of it coming through in Revival of 'F'. Lots of hand to hand combat, with very few instances of repetitive speed lines used to portray fast punches.

We've had some pretty nice cuts from the past two films. I don't see the issue. I think you're referring to Shida's cut when you're talking about things being too flashy, with crazy camera angles. But again, that's an exception rather than the only way things are being done. Personally, I really like it, but I can totally see why his work doesn't do it for some people. It doesn't exactly scream Dragon Ball.
Last edited by Ajay on Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:04 pm

I suppose you have a point. I'm just scared is all. I've seen a lot of comments on Youtube of users saying they wished Super had Heroes Animation and I'm just like.."Seriously?"
Don't get me wrong, some of the scenes in BoG looked very nice such as that gif you pointed out with Vegeta dodging Beerus's punches. Also the scene with Gohan powering up.
But from the preview of Supers episode 5, the fight looks lackluster.
Last edited by HybridSaiyan on Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:05 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Those are from Heroes commercials and video game openings, it's obvious they're gonna look bad. At least judge the current animation from the movies and Super.
Yeah, but it's just an example. The battles from BoG weren't entertaining for me. So much flashy colors and camera angles flying all over the place. It just looked like a colorful mess with no threat or impact.
I can see that for BoG but I if FnF did anything right, it was giving the fights proper choreography for once. Rarely were pieces of animation repeated and when they were, they were quite brief.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Avery » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:21 pm

Doctor. wrote:I think the issue comes from the thick lines being present unnecessarily. With Whis, for example, the bold lines weren't adding any more depth to the drawing, they were just there, they were awkward looking. This shot of Beerus is brilliantly done, however, and a perfect example of it done right.
Agreed. I think they should be used exclusively for "epic" scenes. It's like adding a ridiculous amount of shading to Chi Chi cooking.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:22 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Those are from Heroes commercials and video game openings, it's obvious they're gonna look bad. At least judge the current animation from the movies and Super.
Yeah, but it's just an example. The battles from BoG weren't entertaining for me. So much flashy colors and camera angles flying all over the place. It just looked like a colorful mess with no threat or impact.
I can see that for BoG but I if FnF did anything right, it was giving the fights proper choreography for once. Rarely were pieces of animation repeated and when they were, they were quite brief.
I haven't seen all of RoF so I can't judge however I have seen the trailers and I must admit, the fighting does look like a huge improvement over BoG. My favorite scene was probably Goku's one inch punch. That looked gorgeous. I just see no reason with the bluper Saiyan stuff. I'm sure the original blonde would have defeated Golden Frieza too.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:32 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
I can see that for BoG but I if FnF did anything right, it was giving the fights proper choreography for once. Rarely were pieces of animation repeated and when they were, they were quite brief.
I haven't seen all of RoF so I can't judge however I have seen the trailers and I must admit, the fighting does look like a huge improvement over BoG. My favorite scene was probably Goku's one-inch punch. That looked gorgeous. I just see no reason with the bluper Saiyan stuff. I'm sure the original blonde would have defeated Golden Freeza too.
Probably not the place to discuss this but Freeza actually kicks Goku's by butt quite a good amount in FnF. Freeza's bad (writing induced) training is what gives him the edge. I doubt an inferior version of Super Saiyan would've done the job.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:45 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
HybridSaiyan wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
I can see that for BoG but I if FnF did anything right, it was giving the fights proper choreography for once. Rarely were pieces of animation repeated and when they were, they were quite brief.
I haven't seen all of RoF so I can't judge however I have seen the trailers and I must admit, the fighting does look like a huge improvement over BoG. My favorite scene was probably Goku's one-inch punch. That looked gorgeous. I just see no reason with the bluper Saiyan stuff. I'm sure the original blonde would have defeated Golden Freeza too.
Probably not the place to discuss this but Freeza actually kicks Goku's by butt quite a good amount in FnF. Freeza's bad (writing induced) training is what gives him the edge. I doubt an inferior version of Super Saiyan would've done the job.
See, this is what I don't understand. Frieza in the short time of 4 months has leveled the power of a bluper Saiyan. Back on Namek the original Super Saiyan was toying with Frieza.
In RoF, even if Super Saiyan wasn't enough, then I'm sure a Super Saiyan 2 could have owned him senselessly. This is another thing I want to add. In todays age of Dragon Ball animation, the battle damage doesn't look serious at all. Little scrapes mixed with red scrapes. What happened to the hand drawn blood they use to use? I feel as if that's whats lacking also.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:12 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote:This is another thing I want to add. In todays age of Dragon Ball animation, the battle damage doesn't look serious at all. Little scrapes mixed with red scrapes. What happened to the hand drawn blood they use to use? I feel as if that's whats lacking also.
This has nothing to do with animation, it has to do with making Dragon Ball sanitized for mainstream audiences.
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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Cursemark505 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:48 pm

VintageSaiyan wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:While the animation in Super is far from great, it could have been much worst. The animation in Mars of Destruction and Variable Geo Neo both make Super look like if it was animated by Studio Ghibli.

This has got to be a joke. When you're trying to tell people that Super ain't so bad by comparing it to Mars of Destruction, you know you're in trouble. And that's the plight of Dragonball today.
Cursemark505 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:I didn't say it was good. I said it was better than Super.
Better? Maybe.. Significantly better? Not at all.
You've gotta be kidding. Naruto's animation across the board is significantly better than Super and the series as a whole is vastly superior, I don't know what you're watching, but Super is at the bottom of the Shounen totem pole unfortunately.
I'm talking about on average. On average, Naruto's animation is not "significantly" better. I'm the one that said that Super's animation is at the bottom of the totem pole. I regard stuff like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Toriko, Gintama, Reborn! etc higher because they have many well done cuts of animation by fantastic animators and some episodes with pretty decent animation without many different sakuga animators working on them, unlike Super at the moment.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:37 pm

Just wait until you guys see the new episode of Super :lol:

I didn't like the look of the last episode because of the thick black lines but that was beautiful compared to what we got this week.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:39 pm

Screenshots from episode 5:

Image
Image

Fuck me.

This is DBZ Movie 6 level bad animation. :sick:

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Doctor. » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:46 pm

I'm just gonna stop defending the modern animation, Toei doesn't deserve it if this is the amount of effort they're willing to put into a brand new series, in a major episode.

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Re: New Animation VS Old Animation

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:49 pm

I thought Super had pretty good animation until recently with this episode. I got to agree that this is the worst that DB has looked since DBZ Movie 6. I still do like that Super does capture the colorful look of Dragon Ball while GT didn't. GT look bland and bleak. I don't know why GT changed it's art direction so quickly after DBZ ended and didn't continued the colorful style of DB & DBZ did.
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