Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Taskmaster]

Except the story has him doing JUST that. Regardless if you think it's out of his characterization to do that, he does. We Know Goku is wrong because Kaioshinn actually tells the view that a stronger more evil Buu appears.

Given that Goku never states or indicates that he underestimated Pure Buu's power, and that Kibitoshin doesn't say that Pure Buu is more powerful than Evil Buu, then your idea of "foreshadowing" is baseless. Goku only remarks that he overestimated himself because he thought he could overcome Buu's stamina, nothing regarding Buu's actual strength, and Kibitoshin's entire statement I've already explained anyway.

So who was Kid Buu being compared against? They state he is more evil and more powerful than what?
And actually Goku admits that Buu is purposely toying with him and dragging the fight out, and there is nothing Goku can do about it. This (to me at least) sounds like Goku underestimated his opponent.

I know this because Goku actually says "I thought things would go better than this" at no time in that statement did he doubt his own power, his comments were directed towards the unseen difficulty of fighting his foe.

However, given that Goku believed that he was capable of blasting a hole in Buu's body, and had to be informed that he was smaller than a flea, that means that beforehand, he wasn't aware of any kind of strength decrease from becoming smaller. In addition, since Goku was stating that they couldn't beat him upon escaping, and there's no notion that Goku believed they'd remain small upon leaving, then there's no reason to assume that Goku was referring to their physical size.

Funny part really, the Daizenshuu actually says that one of Vegetto's special abilities is to not lose power no matter how small he is. To further this point, Goku is surprised and relieved that everyone returns back to normal upon leaving Buu as well, something we the readers weren't aware of either.

We are told that all absorptions involve a power increase and a personality change, and then we are told that Dai Kaioushin was an exception to this, as it resulted in a power decrease. If South Kaioushin's absorption behaved in any way different than what normally happens, then some mention or indication would have been made. However, Kibitoshin skims past it to go right to telling about the absorption that did affect Buu differently, which supports that South Kaioushin's absorption didn't affect Buu different.

So again, explain why South Kaioushin Buu is there. Given all the other evidence shown regarding absorptions, the only reason it is there is to show that Buu is now being affected most strongly by the South Kaioushin's influence.

I really don't have to do any such thing. There is no statement in the manga that makes any mention of South Kaioshin adding to Buu's power, likewise his pod isn't seen inside of Buu, nor is any statement made By Kaioshinn stating that Buu lost power with the removal of his Kaioshinn. There are just way to many baseless assumption here.

[Truhan]

[edited out]

[Taskmaster]

I'd just like to ask that, from now on, everyone tries to make their point with full paragraphs, addressing everyone's assumptions and theories. It's getting hard to play this fact whoring game when posts are divided in so many pieces, to the point where information is ignored, misinterpreted, etc.

Well, I can't quote everything in one comment or I would have a wall of text that would be extremely difficult to read.

But my position, just to clear up any misconceptions:

Goku is the strongest, multiple statements are made through out the Kid Buu saga actually state it.
No comment is made about Gohan's power in relation to Goku or Buu
Buu is said to be able to kill everyone (and that includes Gohan)
Newer media depicts Goku as the strongest
Newer media doesn't mention Gohan as anything remarkable.

lack of statements and evidence does not make your viewpoint more valid than what is stated.

I gotta run, talk to you all later.

[Darkprince410]

Well, this isn't exactly true. Goku mention 2 times specifically that they and 'everyone else' would be done in. They very well could have revived Gohan and the others without Satan and Buu's help (and they kinda did) AND the boys were alive at the formation of the Spirit Bomb (obviously)

No, they couldn't have. If Mr. Satan hadn't stepped in while Vegeta was getting choked to death by Pure Buu, Vegeta would have ended up dying right then and there before the idea of using Namek's Dragon Balls were even brought up. Furthermore, if Mr. Buu hadn't popped up when he did to continue stalling for time, they couldn't have started trying to come up with plans to use the Dragon Balls. There are nearly 14 pages between Mr. Buu stepping in to save Mr. Satan from Pure Buu's attack on him (which is the start of Mr. Buu stalling him) and Vegeta contacting Dende to bring up the use of the Dragon Balls.

So who was Kid Buu being compared against? They state he is more evil and more powerful than what?

I've given you how the actual comparison was being made a few times now. His heart returned to being pure evil, back to where it was before he had absorbed someone that gave him a gentler heart and weakened him as a result. That's all that the line states. However, we know for a fact that South Kaioushin strengthened Buu when he absorbed him, so losing that absorption weakened Buu in total. The reference to power is essentially an afterthought, and Viz doesn't even reference a power change as a result (simply mentions "taming him").

And actually Goku admits that Buu is purposely toying with him and dragging the fight out, and there is nothing Goku can do about it. This (to me at least) sounds like Goku underestimated his opponent.

Actually, all Goku states is that he could quickly regenerate back to normal following Goku's one Kamehameha at the end of their fight, but is intentionally drawing it out to play around. He's referring to that one specific incident, and nothing about the entire fight.

I know this because Goku actually says "I thought things would go better than this" at no time in that statement did he doubt his own power, his comments were directed towards the unseen difficulty of fighting his foe.

And he specifically references Buu's stamina not depleting, but makes no mention of Buu's actual power.

Funny part really, the Daizenshuu actually says that one of Vegetto's special abilities is to not lose power no matter how small he is. To further this point, Goku is surprised and relieved that everyone returns back to normal upon leaving Buu as well, something we the readers weren't aware of either.

Or Goku was relieved that his belief that they'd return to normal was correct. You're simply assuming that he had no idea. Besides, since Goku also referenced using the Fusion Dance with Vegeta, and Goku would have no idea or even frame of reference to assume that they'd retain full strength in that size as "Gogeta", that kinda makes it a moot point. Furthermore, as indicated before, Goku's shock over his blast not punching a hole through Buu's body to let them escape, as well as the fact that he needed to be informed by Buu that it didn't work because they were so small, indicates that Goku wasn't aware that their strength was affected by their size.

I really don't have to do any such thing. There is no statement in the manga that makes any mention of South Kaioshin adding to Buu's power, likewise his pod isn't seen inside of Buu, nor is any statement made By Kaioshinn stating that Buu lost power with the removal of his Kaioshinn. There are just way to many baseless assumption here.

It's readily established by Rou Kaioushin (with Kibitoshin confirming it) that absorbing an individual results in Buu's power increasing and a form change. Then fast forward to Kibitoshin giving the backstory of Buu, and he explicitly explains that Dai Kaioushin affected Buu differently than what was previously established, that it weakened him rather than strengthened him, and gave him a gentler heart as a result. Since nothing is mentioned or even inferred that South Kaioushin affected Buu differently than normal, then the only logical conclusion we can assume is that South Kaioushin strengthened him, which is supported in guide books.

[h0kuten]

How does someone have the time to type all of that?

[Saago]

My personal take on what Kibitoshin's explanation is supposed to mean: when he's talking about Buu losing strength and becoming more gentle after absorbing the two Kaioshins, I think he's obviously referring to Fat Buu. Fat Buu is clearly supposed to be the result of Pure Buu + Both Kaioshins (if not, what else?). The net result of absorbing both Kaioshins is explicitly stated to have weakened Buu (so Fat Buu is indeed weaker than Pure Buu). Therefore, removing Fat Buu's pod from inside Super Buu also removed both Kaioshins' influence on him, which means he regained the strength he lost after absorbing the two Kaioshins. Basically, up until Vegeta's removal of Fat Buu's pod, Buu still had the two Kaioshins inside (and he had had them throughout the whole Buu arc), so his strength had been decreased and his evilness had been reduced. So removing Fat Buu made him stronger and more evil.

[Truhan]

My personal take on what Kibitoshin's explanation is supposed to mean: when he's talking about Buu losing strength and becoming more gentle after absorbing the two Kaioshins, I think he's obviously referring to Fat Buu. Fat Buu is clearly supposed to be the result of Pure Buu + Both Kaioshins (if not, what else?). The net result of absorbing both Kaioshins is explicitly stated to have weakened Buu (so Fat Buu is indeed weaker than Pure Buu). Therefore, removing Fat Buu's pod from inside Super Buu also removed both Kaioshins' influence on him, which means he regained the strength he lost after absorbing the two Kaioshins. Basically, up until Vegeta's removal of Fat Buu's pod, Buu still had the two Kaioshins inside (and he had had them throughout the whole Buu arc), so his strength had been decreased and his evilness had been reduced. So removing Fat Buu made him stronger and more evil.

Close, but not quite. Fat Buu was the result of Buff Buu absorbing Dai Kaioshin, who suppressed him indeed. When Fat Buu was removed, Kid Buu clinged to South Kaioshin's power for a brief moment, becoming Buff Buu, so we could argue that the Fat Buu Vegeta pulled was actually Mr. Buu. However, that makes no sense, since Mr. Buu was absorbed by Evil Buu, and Super Buu didn't revert back to him. We have to consider that it was indeed Fat Buu that was pulled out, and that he has South Kaioshin inside of him too, so why not consider that Kid Buu tapped onto his power for a brief moment, before realizing that he would have to tap onto Dai Kaioshin's suppression as well? Both of them were reabsorbed and kept tidy in Fat Buu's body after all, and expelled when Mr. Satan messed with Kid Buu. Perhaps Kid Buu decided to stay as his pure self in order to avoid suppression, when the only thing that cost him was access to South Kaioshin's power.

Here's a transformation and absorption theory that I made (which I haven't updated yet) - http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=30378

[manwolf]

How you explain that Gohan can fight with Super Buu and Goku cant, the manga is clear that Goku looks to weaker Super Buu to fight.

Yeah Kid Buu kills Gohan but he is K.O he cant defends himself, that doesn't prove anything, the rest of the saga shows ultimate Gohan stronger that Goku.

Goku can be stronger that Gohan if he trains, controls the super saiyan 3 and gohan lose power because he doesn't train but in Buu saga Goku is weaker that Gotenks and Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

I had a theory that Boo absorbs people when he is in trouble. I asked myself, if Boo killed the North and West Kaioshins without special conditions mentioned, why he absorbed South and Dai Kaioshins instead of just killing them? I thought perhaps this South Kaioshin guy was stronger than even SS3 Goku, which Boo didn't need to absorb. To work with the fact that South Kaioshin is the strongest among Kaioshins, I had two possible explanations: Boo with South Kaioshin absorbed became weaker than Dai Kaioshin and needed to absorb him by default or he became much stronger and Dai Kaioshin was a special case (either the real strongest or the more skilled in magic).

However, other people may assume none of the Kaioshins were even in the realm of Super Saiyan Gohan's strength based on that legend of Z-Sword or the story simply needed a plot device to explain Boo's last transformations. I haven't decided yet which to take.

[Saago]

Fat Buu was the result of Buff Buu absorbing Dai Kaioshin, who suppressed him indeed.

And how is that any different to what I said? Pure Buu became Buff Buu after absorbing one Kaioshin and then he became Fat Buu after absorbing the other one. The result is the same: Fat Buu is the result of Pure Buu absorbing both Kaioshins, and both of them are part of him. I'm not going to even try to make any sense out of Gray Buu, because there is none to be made.

But it is clear to me that removing Fat Buu's pod removed both Kaioshins, otherwise Buu would have stayed as Buff Buu. He didn't, though: after Fat Buu was removed (and, therefore, the two Kaioshins, who were now part of Fat Buu), he reverted to the form he had before absorbing the second Kaioshin (Buff Buu), and immediately after that he reverted to the form he had before absorbing the first Kaioshin (Pure Buu). I mean, Kibitoshin's explanation is pretty explicit: after absorbing the two Kaioshins, Buu became weaker and more gentle, but now the influence of both Kaioshins is gone. If the two Kaioshins made Buu weaker and less evil, you can't possibly cherry-pick and say that without the Kaioshins he becomes more evil but weaker.

[Truhan]

If you read through my theory, then I'll reconsider your stance with the same process. Let's consider that South Kaioshin is the strongest Kai and yet he takes power, like Dai Kaioshin, to see where it ends (to add is to multiply, to take is to divide):

Kid Buu 1x
South Kaioshin 0.5x
Dai Kaioshin 0.25x

Kid Buu + South Kaioshin = Buff Buu
1 * 0.5 = 0.5

Buff Buu + Dai Kaioshin = Fat Buu
0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125

Fat Buu - Dai Kaioshin = Evil Buu
0.125 / 0.25 = 0.5

Fat Buu - South Kaioshin = Mr. Buu
0.125 / 0.5 = 0.25

Evil Buu + Mr. Buu = Super Buu
0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125

Super Buu - Fat Buu = Kid Buu
0.125 / 0.125 = 1

It works as well. However, consider the implications that Buff Buu is the same amount as South Kaioshin, and that both Super Buu and Fat Buu are much weaker than him.

[Hitiro]

If you read through my theory, then I'll reconsider your stance with the same theory. Let's consider that South Kaioshin is the strongest Kai and yet he takes power, like Dai Kaioshin, to see where it ends (to add is to multiply, to take is to divide):

Kid Buu 1x
South Kaioshin 0.5x
Dai Kaioshin 0.25x

Kid Buu + South Kaioshin = Buff Buu
1 * 0.5 = 0.5

Buff Buu + Dai Kaioshin = Fat Buu
0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125

Fat Buu - Dai Kaioshin = Evil Buu
0.125 / 0.25 = 0.5

Fat Buu - South Kaioshin = Mr. Buu
0.125 / 0.5 = 0.25

Evil Buu + Mr. Buu = Super Buu
0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125

Super Buu - Fat Buu = Kid Buu
0.125 / 0.125 = 1

It works as well. However, consider the implications that Buff Buu is the same amount as South Kaioshin, and that both Super Buu and Fat Buu are much weaker than him.

There is also the issue that Goku felt that neither him nor Vegeta could fight against Evil(Super) Boo and that after Boo reverts from Buff Boo both Goku and Vegeta think he is more manageable. Therefore removing the South Kaioshin influence had to have decreased his power rather than increase it. Otherwise if Pure(Kid) Boo was stronger than Buff Boo who was indicated to be stronger than Evil Boo who Goku indicated they couldn't beat then there is no way Goku and Vegeta would think they could manage Pure Boo.

[Truhan]

I think that the simplest argument goes back to this, which has already been stated a few times:
- Super Buu says that he will cease to be himself if Fat Buu's pod is taken;
- Vegeta takes Fat Buu's pod, and so Super Buu has reverted to Kid Buu;
- Kid Buu is now clinging to South Kaioshin's power and getting stronger;
- Buff Buu reverts to Kid Buu, who happened to exist before he bulked up.

Kid Buu gains power from South Kaioshin, and not the other way around.

[Hitiro]

I think that the simplest argument goes back to this, which has already been stated a few times:
- Super Buu says that he will cease to be himself if Fat Buu's pod is taken;
- Vegeta takes Fat Buu's pod, and so Super Buu has reverted to Kid Buu;
- Kid Buu is now clinging to South Kaioshin's power and getting stronger;
- Buff Buu reverts to Kid Buu, who happened to exist before he bulked up.

Kid Buu gains power from South Kaioshin, and not the other way around.

I don't know what you are trying to say. Are you saying Pure Boo is stronger than Buff Boo or weaker? Because given your numbers Pure Boo is the strongest Boo.

[Saago]

There is also the issue that Goku felt that neither him nor Vegeta could fight against Evil(Super) Boo and that after Boo reverts from Buff Boo both Goku and Vegeta think he is more manageable.

The only half-reasonable explanation for the former is that Goku was referring to their size (and that has the problems that have been raised numerous times, yes), but why wouldn't Pure Buu be more manageable than Buff Buu? If Buff Buu is the result of Pure Buu absorbing the strong Kaioshin without the absorption of the Kaioshin that weakened him (and turned him into Fat Buu), then Buff Buu is certainly stronger than Pure Buu.

[MisterGuyMan]

No, they couldn't have. If Mr. Satan hadn't stepped in while Vegeta was getting choked to death by Pure Buu, Vegeta would have ended up dying right then and there before the idea of using Namek's Dragon Balls were even brought up. Furthermore, if Mr. Buu hadn't popped up when he did to continue stalling for time, they couldn't have started trying to come up with plans to use the Dragon Balls. There are nearly 14 pages between Mr. Buu stepping in to save Mr. Satan from Pure Buu's attack on him (which is the start of Mr. Buu stalling him) and Vegeta contacting Dende to bring up the use of the Dragon Balls.

Goku stated that EVERYONE would have died and not just Vegeta. At worst, past some point Kami would have unleashed Gohan and Gotenks from the afterlife anyway and everyone would have been fine. Sure, Vegeta is permanently erased from existence but this isn't everyone dying.

Or Goku was relieved that his belief that they'd return to normal was correct. You're simply assuming that he had no idea. Besides, since Goku also referenced using the Fusion Dance with Vegeta, and Goku would have no idea or even frame of reference to assume that they'd retain full strength in that size as "Gogeta", that kinda makes it a moot point. Furthermore, as indicated before, Goku's shock over his blast not punching a hole through Buu's body to let them escape, as well as the fact that he needed to be informed by Buu that it didn't work because they were so small, indicates that Goku wasn't aware that their strength was affected by their size.

We actually shouldn't assume anything since nothing is made clear. Goku was tiny. Goku believed he could blow a hole inside Super Buu but he was wrong. This is not the same as believing that Goku had no idea his power was affected at all. So his statement inside Super Buu is pretty unclear. Goku might have felt his power decrease but didn't know the extent.

This is why the Daizenshuu statement is so critical. There's no wiggle room at all.

It's readily established by Rou Kaioushin (with Kibitoshin confirming it) that absorbing an individual results in Buu's power increasing and a form change. Then fast forward to Kibitoshin giving the backstory of Buu, and he explicitly explains that Dai Kaioushin affected Buu differently than what was previously established, that it weakened him rather than strengthened him, and gave him a gentler heart as a result. Since nothing is mentioned or even inferred that South Kaioushin affected Buu differently than normal, then the only logical conclusion we can assume is that South Kaioushin strengthened him, which is supported in guide books.

This I agree with but this actually helps the Kid Buu side since South Kaioshin was never released. Therefore his power was inside Kid Buu and the only time his power could have been released was when Kid Buu spit out Fat Buu.

[Truhan]

I think that the simplest argument goes back to this, which has already been stated a few times:
- Super Buu says that he will cease to be himself if Fat Buu's pod is taken;
- Vegeta takes Fat Buu's pod, and so Super Buu has reverted to Kid Buu;
- Kid Buu is now clinging to South Kaioshin's power and getting stronger;
- Buff Buu reverts to Kid Buu, who happened to exist before he bulked up.

Kid Buu gains power from South Kaioshin, and not the other way around.

I don't know what you are trying to say. Are you saying Pure Boo is stronger than Buff Boo or weaker? Because given your numbers Pure Boo is the strongest Boo.

With those numbers, I considered another stance where Pure Boo (Kid Buu) is the strongest. With that sequence of events that you just quoted, Buff Buu is stronger.

The only half-reasonable explanation for the former is that Goku was referring to their size (and that has the problems that have been raised numerous times, yes), but why wouldn't Pure Buu be more manageable than Buff Buu? If Buff Buu is the result of Pure Buu absorbing the strong Kaioshin without the absorption of the Kaioshin that weakened him (and turned him into Fat Buu), then Buff Buu is certainly stronger than Pure Buu.

There you go! You're starting to see where I'm coming from. Thanks for considering that stance, at least.

[singsing]

I had a theory that Boo absorbs people when he is in trouble. I asked myself, if Boo killed the North and West Kaioshins without special conditions mentioned, why he absorbed South and Dai Kaioshins instead of just killing them? I thought perhaps this South Kaioshin guy was stronger than even SS3 Goku, which Boo didn't need to absorb. To work with the fact that South Kaioshin is the strongest among Kaioshins, I had two possible explanations: Boo with South Kaioshin absorbed became weaker than Dai Kaioshin and needed to absorb him by default or he became much stronger and Dai Kaioshin was a special case (either the real strongest or the more skilled in magic).

However, other people may assume none of the Kaioshins were even in the realm of Super Saiyan Gohan's strength based on that legend of Z-Sword or the story simply needed a plot device to explain Boo's last transformations. I haven't decided yet which to take.

It's also possible that Buu, mindless as he is, saw that absorbing made him stronger, and was hungry to absorb other people, even though Dai Kaioshin didn't actually threaten him.

[Darkprince410]

Goku stated that EVERYONE would have died and not just Vegeta. At worst, past some point Kami would have unleashed Gohan and Gotenks from the afterlife anyway and everyone would have been fine. Sure, Vegeta is permanently erased from existence but this isn't everyone dying.

That's the thing though. With Vegeta dead, Buu would instantly jump over to the weakened Goku (who isn't even able to hold a charge in Ssj3) and most certainly finish him off, then just start using the Kai Kai ability to take him to any random part of the universe he wants so he could start blowing it up. Hell, given the fact that he has the Kai Kai, he could go to the check-in station and destroy it before Gohan and the others are given their bodies (since their bodies were destroyed in the living world, they would need bodies created for them at the check-in station to have them in the afterlife, as seen with Chaozu in the Saiya-jin Saga).

Simply put, if Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu didn't step in when they did, Vegeta would have most certainly been just the first of Buu's casualties.

This I agree with but this actually helps the Kid Buu side since South Kaioshin was never released. Therefore his power was inside Kid Buu and the only time his power could have been released was when Kid Buu spit out Fat Buu.

Both the South Kaioushin and the Dai Kaioushin would have been within Mr. Buu, and from the moment Mr. Buu's cocoon was ripped down by Vegeta, Buu was no longer receiving a supply of ki from them. As we've seen before with Gotenks Buu's reversion to Piccolo Buu, even when the source within him changes immediately, it still takes Buu some time to change accordingly, as if he's needing to burn off the remainder of their influence within his body. So when he reverted from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, he burned through all the influence of the Dai Kaioushin first, causing him to revert to South Kaioushin Buu (and thus giving him the stated power increase). Then, he burned through the rest of South Kaioushin's influence, resulting in his power dropping back down as he reverted entirely into Pure Buu.

[manwolf]

I think that when Buu absorbs South Kaioshin he increase his power cause the god are stronger and he become a little more intelligent cause the god are not brain dead, he absorbs Dai not cause his power but fir his knowledge, he thinks that the Dai intelligence increase his power but his goodness nullify his evil powers.

When Super Buu born he nullify totally or almost the good power and he an use the power of South and the intelligence of the kais.

When Mr Buu exit, he first loses the good power that nullify his power but also losses his intelligence.

Mr Buu are the intelligence of the Kais plus the Dai goodness and Buu body.