Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Saago]

There you go! You're starting to see where I'm coming from. Thanks for considering that stance, at least.

But I was merely saying what I've been saying all along. Both Fat Buu and Super Buu have the two Kaioshins inside (and, as explicitly stated by Kibitoshin, the result is a weaker Buu, because of the gentle Kaioshin), whereas both Pure Buu and Buff Buu don't (Pure Buu has neither one nor the other, and Buff Buu only has the strong one). So both Pure Buu and Buff Buu must be stronger than Fat Buu and Super Buu, because they don't have the Kaioshin that weakens them (and Buff Buu should be stronger than Pure Buu, because he has absorbed the strong Kaioshin and that one should have only increased his strength).

Unless someone is willing to argue that Fat Buu is stronger than Pure Buu, Kibitoshin's explanation can only be interpreted one way: after absorbing both Kaioshins, Buu became weaker than he was in his pure form (i.e. Fat Buu is weaker than Pure Buu). In other words, even though one of the Kaioshins (assumedly) increased his strength, the other one decreased it in a bigger proportion. In other words, having both Kaioshins inside at the same time weakened Buu. Therefore, removing both Kaioshins (as Vegeta did when he ripped Fat Buu's cocoon) made Buu stronger.

And I guess that's pretty much all I have to say about this before I start repeating myself ad nauseam.

[Taskmaster]

The problem with all theses theories and assumptions is actually that they are theories and assumptions. It's hard for me to argue/debate someone on fabricated evidence and unknown unknowns, so I try to stick to as literal meaning to the story as possible,

And there is another HUGE implication made that people haven't considered: WHY

Yes, that's right: WHY?!

Why does Kid Buu need to exist in the first place? If by some slim chance, the scenario you constructed is somehow correct, WHY was KId Buu needed as a plot device in the first place, could not the same exact ending you describe it, not be done with Fat Buu or Super Buu?

Up until Kid Buu appears, the reader isn't sure exactly how strong Goku is. We could just omit his speach about being stronger than Fat Buu and have him face Super Buu with the same exact speech and the outcome (according to some people here) would be the same.
- According to some people he and Vegeta would still be weaker than Buu, and it would fufill Goku's goal of a "fair fight" to fight Buu 1vs1.
-Vegeta would still be weaker than Buu
- People could still hold on to the baseless assumption that Gohan could easily save the day

So why does Kid Buu exist? Why go through the trouble of telling the reader directly that Buu transformed back into his original form, and gained back the power he lost (in comparison to his previous forms obviously)

Why have Goku admit that he was stronger than he originally let on?

Why have Vegeta admit that not only is he inferior to Goku, but NO ONE BUT GOKU COULD FIGHT Buu? (I mean, if he was talking about JUST himself, it would be a redundant statement)

Why have Goku state that Fusion (not Gohan and Gotenks) would have made this job easier

Why have Goku state that if Satan and Buu didn't step in, him( and the group immediately surrounding him) and EVERYONE ELSE (which included a revived Gohan) would be dead?

Why have Vegeta state that Buu returning would mean the end of the universe (Gohan occupies that universe)

Why make all these statements (and no statement mentioning Gohan as the exception to the rule) if it didn't mean something? Why have Buu's strength and power be a complete mystery to children and grown adults (such as myself) alike....unless you're reading into it too much, attempting to over-analyze a situation that is pretty cut in dry.

How do we know this? Because the anime, the movies, and all the new media take this (my) position as fact, and lend no credence to these theories. And frankly I won't either.

[Taskmaster]

I'm not going to go back and requote everyone statement, but I read most of what was written.

I'm going to assume, unless someone can point me to a direct statement that says otherwise, that Goku and Buu were dimensions ahead of everyone else, because that's exactly what the story dictates. I'm going to continue to believe that Gohan is pretty tough, but there is still a fairly large gap between him and Goku, with Gohan being inferior (hense Goku's comment about bringing both fighters to 'fight' Buu, in comparison to his comment about Potara 'beating' Buu)
I'm going to believe that Vegeta's speech including everyone - Gohan, Gotenks, himself, Piccolo, because Vegeta already stated he wasn't a match for Buu in his first statement, and like Gohan, is dead too.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Daizenshuu #2's interview that don't require me to twist words.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments Yuskue Watanabe, stating SSJ3 Goku was the benchmark for the movie BOG

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Goten and Vegeta in Dragonball Super that don't require me to assume things that aren't stated.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because that's the story Akira Toriyama wrote.

[dbgtFO]

How do we know this? Because the anime, the movies, and all the new media take this (my) position as fact, and lend no credence to these theories. And frankly I won't either.

In other words debating against you is pointless.
What the new media does is put Kid Buu as stronger than any other Buu and that makes it a fact in the anime, even if one thinks it's nonsencial, but it doesn't make it a fact in the original manga.

[Truhan]

Saying that people's assumptions and theories are just that doesn't exclude yours from being the same. If you ask people why, then I shall ask you why not? I mean, in the end, it's our headcanons versus Akira Toriyama's own canon, when someone who claims to know the truth doesn't really know half of it. It may seem that clinging to certain statements gets you closer to it, when in fact, it's a stance that you're taking similar to ours, but on opposite ends. It's not even healthy to feed an obsession, and much less waste time discussing it, but on one hand the people who do it for fun aren't expecting to overwrite Akira Toriyama's world (hence being their prediction), while the others may be ruining their fun because of how abiding to his world they are, without having fully grasped it. Take a few seconds to stand aside, and realize that the only fact is that there are two equally reasonable stances to this discussion, from which we can infer that things were indeed left open.

[Kaboom]

How do we know this? Because the anime, the movies, and all the new media take this (my) position as fact, and lend no credence to these theories. And frankly I won't either.

In other words debating against you is pointless.

Apparently so. Probably best to just let it go and move on.

[Darkprince410]

Up until Kid Buu appears, the reader isn't sure exactly how strong Goku is. We could just omit his speach about being stronger than Fat Buu and have him face Super Buu with the same exact speech and the outcome (according to some people here) would be the same.

Something weaker than Evil Buu needed to be in place, because Goku readily established that he and Vegeta were no match for Evil Buu, with nothing indicating that he was referring to his physical size, nor lying about his chances to beat him.

As for why he didn't just go with Fat Buu, perhaps it was because Fat Buu didn't physically look like a suitable final enemy. Toriyama was already pushed away from using a similar design as a main villain before when it came to #19, so perhaps he just felt Fat Buu would be too goofy looking to be viewed as a legitimate final villain, and chose a new, more menacing design in comparison.

I'm not going to go back and requote everyone statement, but I read most of what was written.

I'm going to assume, unless someone can point me to a direct statement that says otherwise, that Goku and Buu were dimensions ahead of everyone else, because that's exactly what the story dictates. I'm going to continue to believe that Gohan is pretty tough, but there is still a fairly large gap between him and Goku, with Gohan being inferior (hense Goku's comment about bringing both fighters to 'fight' Buu, in comparison to his comment about Potara 'beating' Buu)
I'm going to believe that Vegeta's speech including everyone - Gohan, Gotenks, himself, Piccolo, because Vegeta already stated he wasn't a match for Buu in his first statement, and like Gohan, is dead too.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Daizenshuu #2's interview that don't require me to twist words.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments Yuskue Watanabe, stating SSJ3 Goku was the benchmark for the movie BOG

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Goten and Vegeta in Dragonball Super that don't require me to assume things that aren't stated.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because that's the story Akira Toriyama wrote.

1) Goku states he and Vegeta stand no chance against Evil Buu, with nothing suggesting it was based on physical size at all.

2) Whole context of Goku and Vegeta's back and forth was them figuring out a way of defeating Buu, so Goku's exclamation of bringing them to fight was automatically because he believed they'd win. Let me ask you this: Why would Goku assume that was Vegeta's plan if both were too weak to beat Buu? All they'd do is just get in the way/get killed according to your reasoning.

3) Gohan and the boys were in no condition to fight at all, dead or alive. There's no indication they had been processed by Enma and no other indication they were available in any other form. Vegeta's comment only fits in the context of they were the only two available to fight at the time.

4) You are arbitrarily putting a time frame on a quote that has none to suit your needs. When no time frame exists, the only logical step is to assume the last time we see the characters at all, which is after the time skip. Otherwise I could go and say that it's a quote about the Cell Games, since, after all, no time frame is given, so I can arbitrarily state it goes wherever I want.

5) You do realize that a benchmark doesn't actually mean the best, right? It simply means that it's the point that other things are being compared to. As such, the simple fact that Goku is the main character is all the reason needed for him to be the benchmark, even if there are other heroes stronger. He's the benchmark just because he's the main hero.

6) Neither Goten's joke nor Vegeta's statement actually states that Goku is the strongest, and given that Vegeta's statement does indicate that he'd need to surpass Goku "and everyone else" to become the strongest, that leaves plenty of room for others to be stronger.

7) Toriyama wrote that Gotenks and Gohan were vastly more powerful than Goku was, and made up a new form of Buu just so Goku could have a challenge just for him. Evil Buu was too strong, and Fat Buu wasn't strong enough, so a new Buu, indicated without contradiction to be weaker than Evil Buu, was created.

[Taskmaster]

How do we know this? Because the anime, the movies, and all the new media take this (my) position as fact, and lend no credence to these theories. And frankly I won't either.

In other words debating against you is pointless.
What the new media does is put Kid Buu as stronger than any other Buu and that makes it a fact in the anime, even if one thinks it's nonsencial, but it doesn't make it a fact in the original manga.

Have you changed your opinion based on anything I've said so far? Then how are you going to be upset when I don't share your views? Like I stated, the original media and new media are all telling the same story, it's just some people don't want to believe it.

[Taskmaster]

I'm not going to go back and requote everyone statement, but I read most of what was written.

I'm going to assume, unless someone can point me to a direct statement that says otherwise, that Goku and Buu were dimensions ahead of everyone else, because that's exactly what the story dictates. I'm going to continue to believe that Gohan is pretty tough, but there is still a fairly large gap between him and Goku, with Gohan being inferior (hense Goku's comment about bringing both fighters to 'fight' Buu, in comparison to his comment about Potara 'beating' Buu)
I'm going to believe that Vegeta's speech including everyone - Gohan, Gotenks, himself, Piccolo, because Vegeta already stated he wasn't a match for Buu in his first statement, and like Gohan, is dead too.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Daizenshuu #2's interview that don't require me to twist words.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments Yuskue Watanabe, stating SSJ3 Goku was the benchmark for the movie BOG

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Goten and Vegeta in Dragonball Super that don't require me to assume things that aren't stated.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because that's the story Akira Toriyama wrote.

1) Goku states he and Vegeta stand no chance against Evil Buu, with nothing suggesting it was based on physical size at all.

2) Whole context of Goku and Vegeta's back and forth was them figuring out a way of defeating Buu, so Goku's exclamation of bringing them to fight was automatically because he believed they'd win. Let me ask you this: Why would Goku assume that was Vegeta's plan if both were too weak to beat Buu? All they'd do is just get in the way/get killed according to your reasoning.

3) Gohan and the boys were in no condition to fight at all, dead or alive. There's no indication they had been processed by Enma and no other indication they were available in any other form. Vegeta's comment only fits in the context of they were the only two available to fight at the time.

4) You are arbitrarily putting a time frame on a quote that has none to suit your needs. When no time frame exists, the only logical step is to assume the last time we see the characters at all, which is after the time skip. Otherwise I could go and say that it's a quote about the Cell Games, since, after all, no time frame is given, so I can arbitrarily state it goes wherever I want.

5) You do realize that a benchmark doesn't actually mean the best, right? It simply means that it's the point that other things are being compared to. As such, the simple fact that Goku is the main character is all the reason needed for him to be the benchmark, even if there are other heroes stronger. He's the benchmark just because he's the main hero.

6) Neither Goten's joke nor Vegeta's statement actually states that Goku is the strongest, and given that Vegeta's statement does indicate that he'd need to surpass Goku "and everyone else" to become the strongest, that leaves plenty of room for others to be stronger.

7) Toriyama wrote that Gotenks and Gohan were vastly more powerful than Goku was, and made up a new form of Buu just so Goku could have a challenge just for him. Evil Buu was too strong, and Fat Buu wasn't strong enough, so a new Buu, indicated without contradiction to be weaker than Evil Buu, was created.

Things not stated >> Things stated now? We are to assume things that aren't stated actually agree with your view and override what is directly stated?

[Hitiro]

Things not stated >> Things stated now? We are to assume things that aren't stated actually agree with your view and override what is directly stated?

What's stated is Goku believes that himself and Vegeta would not be able to beat Evil(Super) Boo unless they fuse. What is also stated is Goku believes he can beat Pure(Kid) Boo.

By simple logic:

Evil Boo > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta

SSJ3 Goku > Pure Boo > SSJ2 Vegeta

Which means:

Evil Boo > Pure Boo

If you're going to pull the "Things not stated >> things stated" argument it is never stated that Goku was taking size into account when he said they couldn't beat Evil Boo. But you go and say it must mean that anyway?

[Taskmaster]

Things not stated >> Things stated now? We are to assume things that aren't stated actually agree with your view and override what is directly stated?

What's stated is Goku believes that himself and Vegeta would not be able to beat Evil(Super) Boo unless they fuse. What is also stated is Goku believes he can beat Pure(Kid) Boo.

By simple logic:

Evil Boo > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta

SSJ3 Goku > Pure Boo > SSJ2 Vegeta

Which means:

Evil Boo > Pure Boo

If you're going to pull the "Things not stated >> things stated" argument it is never stated that Goku was taking size into account when he said they couldn't beat Evil Boo. But you go and say it must mean that anyway?

So Kid Buu < Goku > Gohan? Because that's clearly stated too.

[Hitiro]

So Kid Buu < Goku > Gohan? Because that's clearly stated too.

Where is it ever stated Goku > Gohan? I can tell you that I've never seen a line say that after Gohan got his Rou Kaioshin power-up. If you believe that it is stated then you must be on about a line that you are personally interpreting to mean that. Therefore you are assuming something that isn't actually stated? Unless Goku literally says "I'm stronger than Gohan!" then your argument is flawed because we would be back to your statement of "We are to assume things that aren't stated to actually agree with your view."

[Darkprince410]

Things not stated >> Things stated now? We are to assume things that aren't stated actually agree with your view and override what is directly stated?

A good portion of what you're using as evidence is A) Not actually stating anything evidence wise at all, or B) so intentionally vague that it has a number of different interpretations, and you're simply clinging onto one.

The facts.

1) Goku states he and Vegeta stand no chance against Evil Buu, and insists that fusing in some form is the only way the two of them can beat Evil Buu at his current strength.

2) Goku indicates a power drop from Evil Buu to Pure Buu when he notes that Pure Buu is now something that they now might be able to handle on their own, when beforehand Evil Buu was stated to be something they couldn't.

3) Vegeta indicates that Goku is the only one able to fight him, with he and Goku being the only two around physically capable of fighting at all. Gohan is dead. The boys are dead. They are effectively out of the picture at this point.

4) Goku indicates that he underestimated Buu's stamina, and only Buu's stamina, indicating that Goku never underestimated Buu's physical strength.

5) Once Goku is no longer able to hold a charge as Ssj3, Vegeta brings up using the Dragon Balls to revive those on Earth as part of a new strategy to defeat Buu. The moment he hears this, Goku immediately jumps to the idea of bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight Buu instead. Vegeta tells him no and tells him instead to ready a Genki Dama, stating the only reason he wanted to use the Genki Dama instead is because he wanted the people of the Earth to help defend themselves for once. Nothing is indicated that Goku's idea was wrong or bad, simply that Vegeta wanted a symbolic victory over the Z Senshi pulling out another win.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his son, effectively killing them both, rather than just finish Buu off himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Goku to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

[Taskmaster]

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his son, effectively killing them both, rather than just finish Buu off himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Goku to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

Here, let's reverse that comment.

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his rival, effectively killing them both, rather than just have Gohan finish himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Gohan to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

Seems equally as silly. Except one of these statements make sense when placed in the story and doesn't require a college dissertation to explain a theory that even people on your side can't agree with.

[Darkprince410]

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his rival, effectively killing them both, rather than just have Gohan finish himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Gohan to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

Seems equally as silly. Except one of these statements make sense when placed in the story and doesn't require a college dissertation to explain a theory that even people on your side can't agree with.

Except Gohan wasn't available during any of the situations that fusing permanently with Vegeta was mentioned. He was within Buu initially, then unconscious with no indication on when or if he'd regain conscious, and then dead, so Gohan was out of the picture in all instances.

[Hitiro]

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his son, effectively killing them both, rather than just finish Buu off himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Goku to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

Here, let's reverse that comment.

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his rival, effectively killing them both, rather than just have Gohan finish himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Gohan to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

Seems equally as silly. Except one of these statements make sense when placed in the story and doesn't require a college dissertation to explain a theory that even people on your side can't agree with.

It really doesn't require a college dissertation to work out why they didn't use Gohan here. Darkprince410 explained it pretty well. Look at it this way. If you and your mates were out clubbing and the stronger friend got clubbed over the head with a bottle, knocking him out, would you not team up with your other friend to fight the guy who clubbed your strong friend over the head? Or would you say "We should leave it to our unconscious strong friend to beat this person. Even though we have no idea when he'll wake up."

[Taskmaster]

So Kid Buu < Goku > Gohan? Because that's clearly stated too.

Where is it ever stated Goku > Gohan? I can tell you that I've never seen a line say that after Gohan got his Rou Kaioshin power-up. If you believe that it is stated then you must be on about a line that you are personally interpreting to mean that. Therefore you are assuming something that isn't actually stated? Unless Goku literally says "I'm stronger than Gohan!" then your argument is flawed because we would be back to your statement of "We are to assume things that aren't stated to actually agree with your view."

And Oddly enough I know of no statement saying Gohan is stronger than Goku, I am aware that Vegeta believes (and Goku confirms) that he could beat Buu.
Goku also sates that believes it was Vegeta's plan to have Gohan and Gotenks fight Buu, which Vegeta dismisses, afterwards it's stated 2 times that no one could beat Buu.

Those sir, are fact and not up for debate.

Things not stated >> Things stated now? We are to assume things that aren't stated actually agree with your view and override what is directly stated?

A good portion of what you're using as evidence is A) Not actually stating anything evidence wise at all, or B) so intentionally vague that it has a number of different interpretations, and you're simply clinging onto one.

The facts.

1) Goku states he and Vegeta stand no chance against Evil Buu, and insists that fusing in some form is the only way the two of them can beat Evil Buu at his current strength.

2) Goku indicates a power drop from Evil Buu to Pure Buu when he notes that Pure Buu is now something that they now might be able to handle on their own, when beforehand Evil Buu was stated to be something they couldn't.

NO. Goku doesn't say anything about a Power drop. The problem with the strength checker is it doesn't have statements made before/after to provide context. However we know Vegeta said nothing about power, specifically used a word that referred to physical size and Goku agreed.

3) Vegeta indicates that Goku is the only one able to fight him, with he and Goku being the only two around physically capable of fighting at all. Gohan is dead. The boys are dead. They are effectively out of the picture at this point.

Oddly enough, based on what you're saying is Vegeta mentions the same thing twice in a sentence. Him stating can't beat Buu is already established, stating it again serves no purpose unless he's including people beyond himself.

I mean, it's not like he doesn't say later on that if Buu returned no one could beat him. Right?

4) Goku indicates that he underestimated Buu's stamina, and only Buu's stamina, indicating that Goku never underestimated Buu's physical strength.

Debatable.

5) Once Goku is no longer able to hold a charge as Ssj3, Vegeta brings up using the Dragon Balls to revive those on Earth as part of a new strategy to defeat Buu. The moment he hears this, Goku immediately jumps to the idea of bringing Gohan and Gotenks to fight Buu instead. Vegeta tells him no and tells him instead to ready a Genki Dama, stating the only reason he wanted to use the Genki Dama instead is because he wanted the people of the Earth to help defend themselves for once. Nothing is indicated that Goku's idea was wrong or bad, simply that Vegeta wanted a symbolic victory over the Z Senshi pulling out another win.

He doesn't state that it's the only reason, nor are the residents of Namek, the Kaioshinn and or the otherworld part of Earth. Goku does protests the idea (which he doesn't offer up Gohan as a solution...and he's a resident of Earth)

[Taskmaster]

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his son, effectively killing them both, rather than just finish Buu off himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Goku to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

Here, let's reverse that comment.

I'm just finding it odd that Goku is willing to permanently fuse with his rival, effectively killing them both, rather than just have Gohan finish himself. It seems like a lot less trouble for Gohan to just wipe out Buu if he's that strong.

Seems equally as silly. Except one of these statements make sense when placed in the story and doesn't require a college dissertation to explain a theory that even people on your side can't agree with.

It really doesn't require a college dissertation to work out why they didn't use Gohan here. Darkprince410 explained it pretty well. Look at it this way. If you and your mates were out clubbing and the stronger friend got clubbed over the head with a bottle, knocking him out, would you not team up with your other friend to fight the guy who clubbed your strong friend over the head? Or would you say "We should leave it to our unconscious strong friend to beat this person. Even though we have no idea when he'll wake up."

Ahh, so at no time would I not consider inviting my friend back to kick this guys ass instead of bringing in every stranger from around the bar to do it for me?

And again, how do you reconcile the 'why' (A response I noticed you conveniently ignored) as well as the multiple statements made by Vegeta (both with Gohan alive and dead) stating that NO ON CAN BEAT BUU BUT GOKU.

[Hitiro]

And Oddly enough I know of no statement saying Gohan is stronger than Goku, I am aware that Vegeta believes (and Goku confirms) that he could beat Buu.

Gohan states he can beat Evil Boo. Goku states he would lose to Evil Boo. Vegeta, and Goku, state that Goku could beat Pure Boo. Therefore we have this:

Gohan > Evil Boo

Evil Boo > Goku

Goku > Pure Boo

Resulting in:

Gohan > Evil Boo > Goku > Pure Boo

Goku also sates that believes it was Vegeta's plan to have Gohan and Gotenks fight Buu, which Vegeta dismisses, afterwards it's stated 2 times that no one could beat Buu.

Vegeta dismisses using Gohan and Gotenks because "it is time the Earthlings saved themselves for once." < His words.

And no, Vegeta never says no one could beat Boo. He says the only one who can beat Boo right now is Goku. Which should go without saying. How is a dead Gohan and dead Gotenks supposed to beat Boo?

Ahh, so at no time would I not consider inviting my friend back to kick this guys ass instead of bringing in every stranger from around the bar to do it for me?

What? If you are on about Vegeta not bringing Gohan or Gotenks to fight he explained his reason. I don't see why you are debating against what he actually said. His reason was clearly stated. Now if he said nothing then you're entitled to this opinion. But Vegeta clearly states to us that it is time the Earthlings saved themselves for a change. There is no reason to assume it means anything other than what he said. Given the personality of Vegeta if it were the case that Gohan and Gotenks were too weak to fight Pure Boo he would have openly said it.

And again, how do you reconcile the 'why' (A response I noticed you conveniently ignored) as well as the multiple statements made by Vegeta (both with Gohan alive and dead) stating that NO ON CAN BEAT BUU BUT GOKU.

If you check the previous pages as well as bother to read Darkprince's posts you will see "why". He has explained everything. I said the same thing several pages back to someone else about the statements mentioned. If you really want to ask "why" then "why" would Gohan or Gotenks be included in statements where they "would be"/are dead at the time.