Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

Are you watching bad, rushed, day-one subs? Don't watch bad, rushed, day-one subs. Unless you're talking about a different line altogether, this is what Beerus said this time around:

This time, Beerus is even harsher on base Goku: "it seems impossible for you to have defeated Freeza" (same line as before, but now with 到底)

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/630175424614498309

Yeah, Beerus has two lines about Goku's defeat of Freeza. First he talks about base Goku like in BoG, then after Goku has gone Super Saiyan, Beerus once again comments on Goku's defeat of Freeza(you didn't need subs to tell that's what he was talking about; it was the standard terminology "Freeza no taus da"(I have seen enough DB to know that "taus" means "beat/defeat") and the subs translate that as: "I see.. but I don't think you defeated Freeza with this power. Perhaps you should increase it...").

[Noah]

Are you watching bad, rushed, day-one subs? Don't watch bad, rushed, day-one subs. Unless you're talking about a different line altogether, this is what Beerus said this time around:

This time, Beerus is even harsher on base Goku: "it seems impossible for you to have defeated Freeza" (same line as before, but now with 到底)

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/630175424614498309

Yes, but that he said to Base Goku, then after Goku go SSJ he says something similiar like: "It seems you suffered a bit to defeat Freeza" he said that to a FP SSJ tier, don't know if it is a sub thing or if was a error indeed

[dbgtFO]

I forgot Beerus has one last line about Freeza and that comes after Goku had fought him a bit in SS, according to the subs it's:
"Maybe you are strong! I admit it's possible to defeat Freeza this way, but Freeza must have given you a really tough fight that time..."

This is the line Noah is referring to.

[RandomGuy96]

Anyone still want to use Super for power level debates?

[dbgtFO]

Anyone still want to use Super for power level debates?

Lol. This is now the second piece of DB media, that makes it sound like Super Saiyan puts you at a specific level, rather than being able to increase that level as the Cell arc proves. The first was that "DB Professor" claiming 1 kiri = Battle Power 50,000, because Super Saiyan Goku has 3,000 kiri and Super Saiyan Goku has a battle power of 150,000,000 and now this apparently.

The logic seems to be as follows:

Freeza =< Super Saiyan
Perfect Cell =< Super Saiyan 2
Pure Majin Buu =< Super Saiyan 3

[Noah]

Maybe Super will screw up with power levels just like GT did it

[Truhan]

I'd like to build upon this topic to discuss whether or not a character's Full Power is variable, depending on their nature.
It was estimated that Freeza doubled his power when he was using 100% of it, and that it still wasn't able to reach that of SSJ Goku.
Speaking of Super Saiyans, if we want to use that multiplier of 100 times the base power for SSJ2, then "full power" has to be less than twice the increase over SSJ.
Grade 2 could be 1.2 times SSJ in power and speed, Grade 3 an increase of 1.4 in power with speed loss, and Full Power 1.6 times SSJ on all levels, allowing SSJ2 to be a greater boost.

But what about Cell? Let's compare Gohan and Goku to him, with SSJ2 and his post-Zenkai self.

FPSSJ Gohan = 80
FPSSJ Goku = 72
Perfect Cell (60%) = 72
Powered up (70%) = 84
SSJ2 Gohan = 100
Perfect Cell (FP) = 96
Super Perfect Cell = 120

We could say that Perfect Cell powers up like Super Saiyans do, with "full power" being an increase of 1.6 times his 50% state. Semi-Perfect Cell didn't force Super Vegeta into Grade 3 when he powered up to his fullest, which means that he had to be much weaker than him at his original state. Let's put these in numbers:

SSJ Vegeta = 40
Super Vegeta = 48
Semi-Perfect Cell = 30
Semi-Perfect Cell (FP) = 48
Perfect Cell (50%) = 60
SSJ Grade 3 Trunks = 56

Notice that the difference between each distinctive form of Cell is a multiplier of 2, and that his Full Power is less than twice his original form, like Super Saiyans. Perhaps we can move on to Imperfect Cell, who is stronger than Piccolo and somewhat dangerous to a regular SSJ before the RoSaT:

Imperfect Cell = 15
Imperfect Cell (FP) = 24
Piccolo (with Kami) = 19.2
Android 17 (100%) = 19.2
Android 17 (50%) = 9.6
SSJ Future Trunks = 9.6

As I approach the Freeza saga numbers, I feel that these have to be changed from the bottom up, but now you know how I relate these things. Check for inconsistencies with the statements, please.

[ZombieVito]

That semi new line from Beerus now makes me think I should lower Goku a bit.

I have him at 100 million there.

[Doctor.]

Maybe Super will screw up with power levels just like GT did it

It's already doing it by saying Freeza is not that far from Boo arc SS Goku.

Also, since this is following BoG, you can expect a fuckload of them once everyone starts fighting, with Gohan being weaker than Vegeta and stuff, and Vegeta apparently surpassing SS3 Goku and all of that. There's even more with F.

[LightBing]

I think we should establish a rule not to discuss Super power levels, until all the lines are properly translated. Feats are an exception.

[Sayo-chan]

Super Perfect Cell = 120

Super Vegeta = 48
Semi-Perfect Cell (FP) = 48
Perfect Cell (50%) = 60

How are Vegeta and Semi Cell equal at all? And, Perfect Cell after becoming complete is 50% of his post-zenkai?

[Truhan]

Super Perfect Cell = 120

Super Vegeta = 48
Semi-Perfect Cell (FP) = 48
Perfect Cell (50%) = 60

How are Vegeta and Semi Cell equal at all? And, Perfect Cell after becoming complete is 50% of his post-zenkai?

Ok, that's what I wanted you comment, thanks. There was a point when Perfect Cell had already powered up to his fullest, but unlike Freeza, I'm not considering 100% to be his full power. Instead, I decided to give him an arbitrary ceiling of 1.6 times his 50% state, which for Saiyans would be the same as multiplying their power by 80. Twice the amount of his 50% state is "Super" Perfect Cell, the SSJ2 equivalent.
As for Semi-Perfect Cell... I know that he and Super Vegeta were not equal, but to make him much more weaker than he already is, compared to Super Vegeta, would be unnecessary, given the damage he had already taken before powering up to his fullest (1.6 times his 50% state). If you feel like tinkering with those values, be my guest

[ahill1]

It is impossible to have Freeza > Goku base. Goku base fought evenly with Yakon, which is already much stronger than Freeza; Kaioshin said he could one-shot Freeza and feared Yakon. Have Furiza > base Saiyans is factually wrong.

My numbers for Freeza saga:


Kuririn 200,000

Gohan 250,000

Piccolo(Weighted) 275,000
~W/o weights 300,000

Vegeta 500,000

Freeza(1st form) 530,000




Freeza arc part 2



Gohan 250,000
~Furious 1,000,000

Freeza 2nd form(initial) 1,060,000
~Vs Gohan 1,200,000
~Full power 1,400,000

Piccolo post merge(Weighted) 1,250,000
~W/o weights 1,500,000

Gohan(zenkai) 500,000
~Furious 1,600,000
~Masenko 1,800,000

Freeza(3rd form) 1,850,000

Vegeta(zenkai) 2,400,000

Freeza final form(initial) 2,400,000
~Speedup 3,250,000
~50% 70,000,000
~70% 98,000,000
~100% 140,000,000

Goku
~base 3,000,000
~Kaioken x10 30,000,000
~Kaioken x20 60,000,000
~Super Saiyajin 150,000,000

What do you guys think? Looks good?

[miguelnuva1]

Beerus is being sarcastic to try and draw out Ssj god. The way Beerus acts is he could feel Ssj3 before Goku transforms.

[ZombieVito]

It is impossible to have Freeza > Goku base. Goku base fought evenly with Yakon, which is already much stronger than Freeza; Kaioshin said he could one-shot Freeza and feared Yakon. Have Furiza > base Saiyans is factually wrong.

My numbers for Freeza saga:


Kuririn 200,000

Gohan 250,000

Piccolo(Weighted) 275,000
~W/o weights 300,000

Vegeta 500,000

Freeza(1st form) 530,000




Freeza arc part 2



Gohan 250,000
~Furious 1,000,000

Freeza 2nd form(initial) 1,060,000
~Vs Gohan 1,200,000
~Full power 1,400,000

Piccolo post merge(Weighted) 1,250,000
~W/o weights 1,500,000

Gohan(zenkai) 500,000
~Furious 1,600,000
~Masenko 1,800,000

Freeza(3rd form) 1,850,000

Vegeta(zenkai) 2,400,000

Freeza final form(initial) 2,400,000
~Speedup 3,250,000
~50% 70,000,000
~70% 98,000,000
~100% 140,000,000

Goku
~base 3,000,000
~Kaioken x10 30,000,000
~Kaioken x20 60,000,000
~Super Saiyajin 150,000,000

What do you guys think? Looks good?

I know this is a waste of time but here I go:

Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo.
Freeza > Base Saiyans is pretty much a fact now.
Kuririn's official BP at the start of the saga is 75,000.
Gohan's official BP at the start of the saga is 200,000.
Vegeta's official BP at the start of the saga is 250,000.
Piccolo = 2nd form Freeza [FP].
Freeza official BP is 120,000,000.

[ahill1]

I don't think Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo withdrew from the tournament because he figured out who Kaioshin is.
Then Goku SSJ (buu arc) ~ Freeza (namek)?

75,000 seems too low for Krillin, don't you think? He was considered to be useful against Freeza, whose power was 530,000.

250,000 seems too low for Vegeta-he fought evenly with Freeza (1st form). Don't you think that 500,000 would be better?

Why do you think Piccolo ~ Freeza? Gohan was sure that Piccolo would win. Is there a quote in Daizenshuu for that?

I'm undecided about the power of Frieza (100%) ... He was able to fight evenly with Goku, then how would a 20% distance between their powers?

[ZombieVito]

I don't think Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo withdrew from the tournament because he figured out who Kaioshin is.
Then Goku SSJ (buu arc) ~ Freeza (namek)?

75,000 seems too low for Krillin, don't you think? He was considered to be useful against Freeza, whose power was 530,000.

250,000 seems too low for Vegeta-he fought evenly with Freeza (1st form). Don't you think that 500,000 would be better?

Why do you think Piccolo ~ Freeza? Gohan was sure that Piccolo would win. Is there a quote in Daizenshuu for that?

I'm undecided about the power of Freeza (100%) ... He was able to fight evenly with Goku, then how would a 20% distance between their powers?

It's stated both in the manga and in the guidebooks. I'm probably the biggest Piccolo fanboy here and even I have to admit that he is weaker.
He was useful. He nearly killed 2nd form Freeza.
Evenly? Did we read the same "fight"?
Yes, it was stated in Daizenshuu and unlike the Gotenks = Super Buu quote, this one works just fine. Piccolo had the advantage in speed not power.
Did we read the same fight?

[ahill1]

It's not stated in the manga. For me Piccolo has found out who Kaioshin was. Piccolo has not entered the tournament to give up because it was not the stronger-it is obvious that there was something else restricting him in combat.

So you think Vegeta is less than half Freeza's power?

I don't know how 75,000 can be useful against someone with 530,000.

Goku and Freeza fought evenly until Frieza began to have their power reduced.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He was useful. He nearly killed 2nd form Freeza.

Yes, but Vegeta specifically points out that Krillin's power will be useful, not his techniques.

[Kaboom]

I didn't realize there was some sort of minimum power percentage required to be considered "useful" against an opponent. Is there a chart or spreadsheet of some sort in the guidebooks that I haven't seen?

It is impossible to have Freeza > Goku base. Goku base fought evenly with Yakon, which is already much stronger than Freeza; Kaioshin said he could one-shot Freeza and feared Yakon. Have Furiza > base Saiyans is factually wrong.

It's not anywhere near "impossible" or "factually wrong." Such brazen and exaggerated claims are unnecessary.