Can the SSJ4 form be considered the true Super Saiyan state?

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:57 pm

I remember seeing a Golden Ozaru in a flashback or some type of sequence that showed a supposed Super Saiyan before Goku actiually transformed into one on Namek. And this is kinda similar to his form before before he shrunk back down becomes what we today call SSJ4.

I know that many of the characters call the blond haired power-ups Super Saiyan forms, but I think that it's safe to say that they may be wrong. Especially since Vegeta called himself a Super Saiyan repeatedly.

On a little side note, considering that there's not much physical difference apperance wise between SSJ1 and SSJ2, could we call SSJ2 a fully charged SSJ. Inbetween the two levels we have USSJ1 and USSJ2, and to me SSJ2 fixes the cons of these.

Dio Brando · Post by **Dio Brando** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:23 pm

If I remember, the one who coined the terms "Super Saiyan 1, 2 & 3" was Goku, during his fight with the first Majin Buu (fat one). Maybe he did it for the sake of organization, so he could easily explain to another person (in the example, Buu and Babidi) what is the concept of the power level increase after each "transformation"?

About the Super Saiyan that Vegeta refers to, I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Super Saiyan of the legend, he tells that during some parts of Freeza Saga (maybe King Vegeta told him about it as a fairy tale of sorts, and Vegeta was just trying to believe it to be true?).

However, if you go by the backstory of the series, you have some options:

1 - Goku: he was intended to be the only Super Saiyan (and as such, the Super Saiyan of the legend), because the series was supposed to end after he defeats Freeza;

2 - Broly: although this could be debatable on many levels, I'm talking about the state, not the character. Broly is the only one who shows a unique state of Super Saiyan. He's the least probable candidate, IMO, even more if you consider that he is just an anomaly (or like is said in his backstory, a "mutant") in Saiyan evolution.

3 - None: since the Super Saiyan state is supposed to be attainable only by the Super Saiyan of the legend, it would make sense to say none of them reached the true Super Saiyan state, since it has to be a unique transformation, and SSJ4 is not.

But it would be too much to debate on a work of fiction to such extent, I think... I have yet to see a perfectly convincing theory, maybe we can go by the excuse that "Toriyama forgot", or that he left that part open to the reader's interpretation.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:31 pm

The term "legendary super saiyan" is so tired now. Goku..then Broli.. you know what? I'm the legendary super saiyan, too.

I like to think Goku is the legendary super saiyan because he's Goku and he went through all of the forms. However, I believe the daizenshuu says something about Broli's form being called the legendary form or something, but I'm not too sure.

[...]because the series was supposed to end after he defeats Freeza;[...]

The sound of a can of worms opening..*sigh*
-Rick

Dio Brando · Post by **Dio Brando** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:15 pm

About, the Freeza bit, it was too late when I noticed what I was getting into.

Anyway, I looked in the Wikipedia entry for Broly and Super Saiyan levels, and there Broly is listed as having two unique forms: Restricted Super Saiyan (blue hair) and Legendary Super Saiyan (...)

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Saiy ... per_Saiyan

Also, it's mentioned what Daizenshuu they got the information from, so I think there may be some reliability. But who knows... Broly fanboys are everywhere.

Note: It's also listed in Daizenshuu Ex's Transformation Guide.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:20 pm

Dio Brando wrote:the series was supposed to end after he defeats Freeza;

It's not exactly the first time I say that, but...
Source, please?

Dio Brando · Post by **Dio Brando** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:27 pm

I admit there's little to no reliable source about this matter in english... I said "supposed" because I don't know for sure, that is it.

Anyway, the Wikipedia entry for the Freeza Saga has this bit:

"Toriyama originally intended to end the series with the Frieza saga, with a major symbolic event which would provide closure to the series. However, despite some fan response that the series was losing momentum, the popularity of the series was high enough that the series continued."

But as the reliability of this is disputed (perhaps will always be), then just ignore my (pitiful) comment.

future_trunks · Post by **future_trunks** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:39 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:The term "legendary super saiyan" is so tired now. Goku..then Broli.. you know what? I'm the legendary super saiyan, too.

Well maybe I'm the legendary Super Saiyan

.

Well look at the evidence that shows it should of stopped at Freeza. Like that Goku has fullfilled his saiyan heratige by becoming THE LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN!!!!!, but then everyone goes super saiyan and they have to invent another form. Secondly it would be the perfect ending, Vegeta is staying on earth and isn't evil any more, everyone is happy and the earth loks like it will never be threatened again...

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:40 am

Actually... I am the lengendary super saiyan, considering I am Brolys kin.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:21 am

The talks about the "Super Saiyan" 1000 years ago having to be a Great Ape and destroying himself was all filler, so how serious are you willing to take it?

I highly doubt that Toriyama-sensei created Goku the Legendary Super Saiyan with the intention of some series several years later that he wasn't too involved in revealing the 'true' Super Saiyan.

Also, Super Saiyan 2 isn't really all that similar to Super Saiyan 1. The Anime just kind've fell short in portraying the difference, what with its limited appearances and not-so great art teams.

There's a lot more crazy crap happening around the latter images Ssj2 Gohan than you can fully see, since it cuts off a lot of his aura and the background.

Anyway, yeah, I don't vote for Ssj4 being the "true" Super anything. It's just another level of Saiyan power.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:43 am

I like to call it Toei-Pawa!........okay that was bad.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:49 am

Dio Brando wrote:But it would be too much to debate on a work of fiction to such extent, I think... I have yet to see a perfectly convincing theory, maybe we can go by the excuse that "Toriyama forgot", or that he left that part open to the reader's interpretation.

Well... yeah. That's pretty much the only truthful answer/explanation. But for the sake of trying to give an "in-story" explanation, I'll do my best to give a shot (most of what I'm about to type is influenced from Beckett's little explanation, so bear with me, please):

So, all of the SSJs we've seen throughout the series have transformed without a tail. However, one could say that the true SSJ is meant to be transformed from the most original form of a Saiy-jinn-- a Saiya-jinn with their tail still on.

Now, all of the Saiya-jinns were aware of being able to transform into the Great Ape (or Oozaru), which I guess you could consider their first level of power up. So... where do you go from here? GT (being as plot-hole-ey as it is) provides quite an interesting what-if: What would happen if an Oozaru transforms into SSJ? And so we're given this Golden Oozaru and (drum roll) SSJ4. Now, keeping track of the transformations that the Saiyajinn has gone through to reach SSJ4, that's 3 (base->Oozaru->Golden Oozaru->SSJ4). Considering that the Saiyajinns didn't consider base Oozaru and SSJ form, I guess you could call SSJ4 "the true SSJ2."

So yeah, conclusion: One could consider Golden Oozaru the true SSJ and SSJ4 as the true SSJ2, but we're never given any striaght up answers.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:55 am

It doesn't count because it's GT. It's nothing. All the Super Saiyan levels have gold hair and then you have Goku sporting a red fur coat.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:04 am

Grand Kaiôshin calls it Super Saiyan 4, Goku calls it Super Saiyan 4, Toei calls it Super Saiyan 4. Even Toriyama quasi embraces the design (he did after all use it himself) You can't really get more official than that. It's a Super Saiyan transformation.

GI_Judd2287 · Post by **GI_Judd2287** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:11 am

I agree with the above poster. While GT may not be canon, the form used in that series is what SSJ4 would look like. It's used by Toriyama and Toei so nothing else would be acceptable. But the "legendary" Super Saiyan stage is probably the first one.

Ex-Dubbie369 · Post by **Ex-Dubbie369** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:44 am

My thoughts of this is that the Super Saiyan 4 could be something of the regular Saiyan at full power, sort of like a true form. Even Goku became his "true" adult self when he became SSJ4. It's a little out there, but it could be similar to what happens to Gohan when he became "Mystic" Gohan. SSJ4 may just be a way to tap into a Saiyan's full power, but not have the same "energy sapping" that the other SSJ forms do.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:50 am

Both LSSJ and SSJ4 are considered filler bullshit. Therefore I personally do not count it.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:13 pm

Most of you probably know by now that I'm a big SSj4 fan, so you probably already know what I think. I pretty much subscribe to the "SSj4 is the Saiyan's true, most pure and powerful form, etc..." argument, mostly because it makes sense in terms of the stage's appearance and power, and makes it seem that much more unique, mysterious, and cool.

Whether or not it's supposed to be the "Legendary" Super Saiyan, I don't really care about. I agree that the whole thing was supposed to end up being SSj Goku, but the concept was kinda ruined when Toriyama-sensei was coerced to continue the series, and we got Super Saiyans popping out from under every rock later on. Toei tried to use Broli to counter that, but for me, that concept kinda died when Broli, well, lost. So... who cares, is what I say.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:05 pm

Mystic Jack wrote:Both LSSJ and SSJ4 are considered filler bullshit. Therefore I personally do not count it.

Actually, neither of them are "filler" in any regard. Filler is intended to put space between Canon segments to stretch episodes, which Movies and GT have nothing to do with.

The word you were looking for is "Non-Canon"

Maphisto86 · Post by **Maphisto86** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:03 am

Well I would rather the SSJ4 form continued the trend of gold hair/green eyes and had Goku be the only one to achieve it. It was marginalized by Vegeta reaching it as well. If they wanted to make Vegeta more powerful he should have become SSJ3. Anyway... I admit it can be the "true" Super Saiyan since it takes the power of the Saiyans to the "next level". I also like how it involves the Oozaru form. So really to me it could be the "legendary" form though personally I approach the "legendary SSJ" to be a individual (i.e. Goku) not a form or transformation. Broly (if you want to even consider him) to me was more like a "anomaly" or "mutation". Hell my BIG thesis about the Saiyans would be too long to explain right now.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:47 am

Non-Canon

Yeah, that's the one.

Well I feel foolish.