Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Pople thin Ult gohan>ssj3 gku from the buu arc,but then answer me this
1. why didn't gohan fight kid buu?
2. why was gohan's ki not enough to kill buu when donated to the spirit bomb?
3. if gohan was stronger then kid buu then why would goku wait 10 years to fight somebody weaker then his son? Goku wants to fight the strongest and would have no threat of death vs Gohan as Gohn is pure o heart.
4. Why did Vegeta say he's ABOVE anyone else? Including Gohan.
5. if super buu was really above gok and veegta along with gohan how can vegito beat his ass in BASE form?

I don't see Gohan anymore then 40% the power of ssj2 vegeta and ssj3 goku.

[Truhan]

Pople thin Ult gohan>ssj3 gku from the buu arc,but then answer me this
1. why didn't gohan fight kid buu?
2. why was gohan's ki not enough to kill buu when donated to the spirit bomb?
3. if gohan was stronger then kid buu then why would goku wait 10 years to fight somebody weaker then his son? Goku wants to fight the strongest and would have no threat of death vs Gohan as Gohn is pure o heart.
4. Why did Vegeta say he's ABOVE anyone else? Including Gohan.
5. if super buu was really above gok and veegta along with gohan how can vegito beat his ass in BASE form?

I don't see Gohan anymore then 40% the power of ssj2 vegeta and ssj3 goku.

1 - He was dead, and revived on Earth. Goku eventually brought up the idea of him fighting Kid Buu, anyway.
2 - Gohan didn't power up to contribute to the Genki-dama, like Goten and Trunks didn't fuse to contribute as well. If it made a difference, why wouldn't they? We also don't know the ratio of user Ki to the power of the Genki-dama.
3 - You're forgetting that a reincarnated Kid Buu (i.e. Uub) can train and develop his inherited potential.
4 - Vegeta probably doesn't know Gohan's potential, as explained in the page prior to this one. He considers himself to be #2, when he was no match for Fat Buu, and when Gohan stomped a version of him that was greater in everything (Super Buu).
5 - Vegito only beat him as Super Vegito. You must be thinking of the anime. We also don't know how Potara fusion works (i.e. addition or multiplication)

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Pople thin Ult gohan>ssj3 gku from the buu arc,but then answer me this
1. why didn't gohan fight kid buu?
2. why was gohan's ki not enough to kill buu when donated to the spirit bomb?
3. if gohan was stronger then kid buu then why would goku wait 10 years to fight somebody weaker then his son? Goku wants to fight the strongest and would have no threat of death vs Gohan as Gohn is pure o heart.
4. Why did Vegeta say he's ABOVE anyone else? Including Gohan.
5. if super buu was really above gok and veegta along with gohan how can vegito beat his ass in BASE form?

I don't see Gohan anymore then 40% the power of ssj2 vegeta and ssj3 goku.

1 - He was dead, and revived on Earth. Goku eventually brought up the idea of him fighting Kid Buu, anyway.
2 - Gohan didn't power up to contribute to the Genki-dama, like Goten and Trunks didn't fuse to contribute as well. If it made a difference, why wouldn't they? We also don't know the ratio of user Ki to the power of the Genki-dama.
3 - You're forgetting that a reincarnated Kid Buu (i.e. Uub) can train and develop his inherited potential.
4 - Vegeta probably doesn't know Gohan's potential, as explained in the page prior to this one. He considers himself to be #2, when he was no match for Fat Buu, and when Gohan stomped a version of him that was greater in everything (Super Buu).
5 - Vegito only beat him as Super Vegito. You must be thinking of the anime. We also don't know how Potara fusion works (i.e. addition or multiplication)

1 Goku asked if that's what Vegeta was thinking,he didn't want to do it. Before he was EXTREMELY gun ho for passing on the torch,but he knew gohan was 2 weak.
2 he doesn't need to power up. if you raise your hand the bomb takes either some or in the this case "as much has they can possibly give"...humans cant use ki and yet they gave all their ki,the fusion doesn't need to happen,nor does thepower up.
3 but if gohan was stronger,even without gohan training which goku woulda made him do goku would stlll wanan fight gohan as the powerhouse he is for a challenge.
4 he shared a mind with goku,he knows the power of gohan. goha's power can be felt form supreme kai's world to earth,so vegeta would be able to sense gohan easily like super buu did at the same distance. Also Vegeta below Fat buu? BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! XD You need to re watch the fight,he owned fat buu. Toriyama forced buu to win to milk the saga more.
5. vegito doesn't need SSj,he just used it to humiliate buuhan more,and also ssj is more entertaining. we do know how potara works,its addition,old kai said so. he guide books are full of wrong statements.

[Truhan]

Ugh, you're not one I want to argue with. Seriously, get a hold of yourself and your arguments, because they're very counterable, but I don't want to waste my time. Thanks for providing more food for thought, anyway.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Ugh, you're not one I want to argue with. Seriously, get a hold of yourself and your arguments, because they're very counterable, but I don't want to waste my time. Thanks for providing more food for thought, anyway.

I'm just using facts,sorry if you don't like the way DBZ was written,you can go back to thinking mystc gohan>goku if you prefer that,it's wrong but it's your perspective. Watch DBZ as you wish.

[Kaboom]

This is not the type of community where we encourage or allow asinine "well if you believe <thing> then you're dumb and not worth talking to nyeh nyeh" bologna. Please keep the childish bickering to an absolute minimum, or preferably none at all, please and thank you.

[Truhan]

Ok, sorry, but I won't backtrack on the argument. I'll just leave his points uncommented then, and provide the last you'll see of me in this thread:

http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/ ... typing.jpg

Good luck, y'all!

[Hugo Boss]

This could still mean that Gohan was taken into consideration, but we've never seen him power up after being absorbed, to be honest, and Gotenks never came into existence again. Furthermore, Vegeta was surprised that Boo had killed and absorbed everyone, creating a time period for when he was still watching things. He witnessed fusion, SSJ3 Goku and Pure Evil Boo absorbing Innocent Boo to become Evil Boo. There's nothing else confirmed, but there's always his surprise.

So, Vegeta doesn't know how strong Gohan and Gotenks are. He just assumed that since Boo defeated them and Goku defeated Boo, then Goku should be the strongest there is.

[h0kuten]

This could still mean that Gohan was taken into consideration, but we've never seen him power up after being absorbed, to be honest, and Gotenks never came into existence again. Furthermore, Vegeta was surprised that Boo had killed and absorbed everyone, creating a time period for when he was still watching things. He witnessed fusion, SSJ3 Goku and Pure Evil Boo absorbing Innocent Boo to become Evil Boo. There's nothing else confirmed, but there's always his surprise.

So, Vegeta doesn't know how strong Gohan and Gotenks are. He just assumed that since Boo defeated them and Goku defeated Boo, then Goku should be the strongest there is.

He could sense everything that was happening on Earth visually, but he can't sense what was happening power wise? That makes next to no sense!

[Hugo Boss]

This could still mean that Gohan was taken into consideration, but we've never seen him power up after being absorbed, to be honest, and Gotenks never came into existence again. Furthermore, Vegeta was surprised that Boo had killed and absorbed everyone, creating a time period for when he was still watching things. He witnessed fusion, SSJ3 Goku and Pure Evil Boo absorbing Innocent Boo to become Evil Boo. There's nothing else confirmed, but there's always his surprise.

So, Vegeta doesn't know how strong Gohan and Gotenks are. He just assumed that since Boo defeated them and Goku defeated Boo, then Goku should be the strongest there is.

He could sense everything that was happening on Earth visually, but he can't sense what was happening power wise? That makes next to no sense!

I admit I never thought about this possibility, but it makes sense. Even if Goku and Vegeta had merged together, they still had to explain some facts that neither of them were aware of before the fusion. Apparently, Vegeta didn't know about the events that happened after Boo entered the RoSaT, while Goku didn't know that the Innocent Boo was absorbed by the Pure Evil Boo.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

This could still mean that Gohan was taken into consideration, but we've never seen him power up after being absorbed, to be honest, and Gotenks never came into existence again. Furthermore, Vegeta was surprised that Boo had killed and absorbed everyone, creating a time period for when he was still watching things. He witnessed fusion, SSJ3 Goku and Pure Evil Boo absorbing Innocent Boo to become Evil Boo. There's nothing else confirmed, but there's always his surprise.

So, Vegeta doesn't know how strong Gohan and Gotenks are. He just assumed that since Boo defeated them and Goku defeated Boo, then Goku should be the strongest there is.

He could sense everything that was happening on Earth visually, but he can't sense what was happening power wise? That makes next to no sense!

I agree on this part. It's ultimately out of Vegeta's character to not bring up who is stronger than who. He is obsessive over being the strongest. Why is he so fixated on Goku's power but not Gohan or Gotenks? At the least, in Battle of Gods, he should be shocked at SSJ1 Gotenks being SSJ3 tier.

[Hugo Boss]

At the least, in Battle of Gods, he should be shocked at SSJ1 Gotenks being SSJ3 tier.

After fighting with Beerus, Vegeta must have realized that even Super Vegetto couldn't defeat him (like Goku did), so not being shocked at Gotenks' power is justified.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I agree on this part. It's ultimately out of Vegeta's character to not bring up who is stronger than who. He is obsessive over being the strongest. Why is he so fixated on Goku's power but not Gohan or Gotenks? At the least, in Battle of Gods, he should be shocked at SSJ1 Gotenks being SSJ3 tier.[/quote]

I don't find ssj1 gotenks ssj3 tier. If gotten and trunks kept training then yah they'd easily surpass ssj3 gotenks,but ssj gotenks would be canon fodder to ssj3 gotenks or ssj1 goku ssj1.

[h0kuten]

At the least, in Battle of Gods, he should be shocked at SSJ1 Gotenks being SSJ3 tier.

After fighting with Beerus, Vegeta must have realized that even Super Vegetto couldn't defeat him (like Goku did), so not being shocked at Gotenks' power is justified.

That is sheer speculation and nothing supports it.

Vegeta fought better than Gotenks, tanked more attacks and was commented on his fighting abilities. More supports the notion of Vegeta being stronger than Gotenks Ssj Post-ROST than not.

[Hugo Boss]

At the least, in Battle of Gods, he should be shocked at SSJ1 Gotenks being SSJ3 tier.

After fighting with Beerus, Vegeta must have realized that even Super Vegetto couldn't defeat him (like Goku did), so not being shocked at Gotenks' power is justified.

That is sheer speculation and nothing supports it.

Vegeta fought better than Gotenks, tanked more attacks and was commented on his fighting abilities. More supports the notion of Vegeta being stronger than Gotenks Ssj Post-ROST than not.

Okay, this is speculation, but let me build up my argument, then. It's very common between Dragon Ball characters to judge warriors by movements and the judgement improves when you fight a paradigm. For example, Kuririn could tell that Vegeta didn't have a chance against Cell and that became even more clear when Kuririn felt Cell's power on his skin. Goku could tell not even Super Vegetto would be enough to beat Beerus, after fighting him. Vegeta and Goku could tell during "SSGSS Goku vs. Golden Freeza" that Freeza was powering down quickly. Vegeta and Goku think very similar when it comes to fighting-analysis, so I assume Vegeta is capable of telling Gotenks is not able to fight Beerus after fighting with him a little.

[h0kuten]

Okay, this is speculation, but let me build up my argument, then. It's very common between Dragon Ball characters to judge warriors by movements and the judgement improves when you fight a paradigm. For example, Kuririn could tell that Vegeta didn't have a chance against Cell and that became even more clear when Kuririn felt Cell's power on his skin. Goku could tell not even Super Vegetto would be enough to beat Beerus, after fighting him. Vegeta and Goku could tell during "SSGSS Goku vs. Golden Freeza" that Freeza was powering down quickly. Vegeta and Goku think very similar when it comes to fighting-analysis, so I assume Vegeta is capable of telling Gotenks is not able to fight Beerus after fighting with him a little.

The problem with this logic is it makes baseless claims and assumes things where there is nothing to support it.

a) Goku already concluded Vegetto couldn't win.
b) Goku wasn't even there to perform fusion with Vegeta, so he had no reason to even think about it.
c) As a story, it's already progressed past the point from where it's already stated how Vegetto compares to Beerus, so it's illogical it would come up as a plot point again.
d) Finally, nothing is ever stated that Vegeta thought about Vegetto. Unless you have a statement, than I'm afraid the argument doesn't hold merit.

Vegeta tried to hold Beerus off for the first half portion of the movie. Only after he started to knock everyone out did Vegeta say 'Screw it'. No, he did not say that because Gohan lost. Again, nothing supports that interpretation, and no, Vegeta wasn't surprised that Gotenks lost, he told Gotenks not to fight Beerus before he even did, having lost himself.

Finally, the feats are there to show us who is stronger than who, it's that simple. Even if you want to argue that Beerus was adjusting his power I can lay out the feats and you'll see that they reflect each fighters strength level and what it took to defeat them.

At the end of the day, more supports Vegeta and nothing supports the latter. Unless you have statements or at least feats to bring to the table - with the exclusion of speculation, than I'm afraid I'm not really convinced other-wise.

[Darkprince410]

Yeah, I also found it strange that Boo would be burning through his absorptions slowly when it was never depicted like that before. It just goes to show that when Majin Boo's pod was taken, Evil Boo turned immediatly into another, powered up into South Kaioshin Boo, and then back. That Boo that Evil Boo turned into right after Majin Boo's pod was taken was Pure Boo. He couldn't be anyone else, not Innocent Boo nor Pure Evil Boo, but his Pure self, who powered up by tapping onto South Kaioshin's power (hence getting bulky) and then powered down (as implied) by releasing it. It's that simple.

We see it take several seconds following the fusion of the boys wearing off inside of Buu for Buu to actually revert from Gotenks Buu to Piccolo Buu. Even though we've seen that the fusion separation is instantaneous, we saw that not only did Buu stop mid flight, but while he was there, still fidgeting around as his body reverted, that Gohan was able to find the Potara, hold it up, exclaim that he found it, and then ask Goku what is he supposed to do with it again. Then, after all that, Buu reverted down to Piccolo Buu.

You can dismiss it as simply a theory if you want, but my personal explanation is that, when Buu absorbs someone, his body becomes saturated with their ki, and the longer than he has them absorbed, the more his body becomes saturated with it. Since South and Dai Kaioushin's ki (due to being within Mr. Buu) were in him the longest, his body was saturated with their ki the most, thus it took the most amount of time to burn off once Mr. Buu's cocoon was detached.

It makes less sense to say that somehow it was Pure Buu tapping into South Kaioushin's power, when Mr. Buu, the source of South Kaioushin's ki, was completely detached from the moment he started reverting onward. There was no way he could be tapping into it, since the plug was out of the socket, so to speak.

1 Goku asked if that's what Vegeta was thinking,he didn't want to do it. Before he was EXTREMELY gun ho for passing on the torch,but he knew gohan was 2 weak.
2 he doesn't need to power up. if you raise your hand the bomb takes either some or in the this case "as much has they can possibly give"...humans cant use ki and yet they gave all their ki,the fusion doesn't need to happen,nor does thepower up.
3 but if gohan was stronger,even without gohan training which goku woulda made him do goku would stlll wanan fight gohan as the powerhouse he is for a challenge.
4 he shared a mind with goku,he knows the power of gohan. goha's power can be felt form supreme kai's world to earth,so vegeta would be able to sense gohan easily like super buu did at the same distance. Also Vegeta below Fat buu? BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! XD You need to re watch the fight,he owned fat buu. Toriyama forced buu to win to milk the saga more.
5. vegito doesn't need SSj,he just used it to humiliate buuhan more,and also ssj is more entertaining. we do know how potara works,its addition,old kai said so. he guide books are full of wrong statements.

1) Why would Goku assume it was Vegeta's plan if it wasn't a good plan to begin with? Likewise, if it wasn't a good plan, Vegeta would have berated Goku on the spot for it being a stupid idea and chided Gohan for being weak. He had absolutely no qualms earlier in the saga for pointing out Gohan was too weak for combat, so if he thought either Gohan or Gotenks were too weak to fight Pure Buu, he wouldn't have hesitated to say so.

2) The Genki Dama doesn't take a person's full ki, just their genki. According to Toriyama's statement in the Super Exciting Guide, ki is made up of several different elements, with genki being just one of them. It is the genki of a person's ki that is donated when it comes to the Genki Dama, so it's simply a matter of Gohan's genki not being high enough to beat Buu.

3) Actually the guide books and recent movies establish that Gohan pretty much stopped training again after the events of the Buu Saga, and his battle power tanked as a result.

4) Vegeta at no point said that Goku was above Gohan and the others in terms of power. If you're referring to the #1 statement he made when Goku was fighting Buu, the entire course of that dialogue was in regards to Goku's drive as a fighter and his motivations for fighting. If you're referring to the "Only you can fight him" statement, that's because Gohan and the others were dead. As for Vegeta being stronger than Fat Buu...no. The moment that Buu tapped into his strength upon getting angry, Vegeta became effectively nothing to him, and Piccolo even states that even if Gohan and Vegeta were both alive, Goku and them at Ssj2 wouldn't have been strong enough to take him on.

5) At no point is either fusion, Potara or otherwise, ever described as addition. Rou Kaioushin never says anything of the sort, so wherever you're getting that information from is wrong. Likewise, just because Vegetto was effortlessly dominating Buu while a Super Saiya-jin doesn't mean that he would have been able to beat him in his base form. Buu could have been ten times as strong as base Vegetto for all we know, and Ssj Vegetto would have still been more than powerful enough to dominate him effortlessly.

[Hitiro]

So, Vegeta talking about Goku beating Pure Buu in Z wasn't about Power. Vegeta calling Goku #1 wasn't about power, and now we have this statement talking about Goku training to become stronger and stating yet again that he's #1 is supposedly not about power?

Guys, there comes a time to admit that your position is weak/faltering/no existent. This is exactly that moment.

The statement is purposely vague it is just there for Vegeta to say Goku is still his superior. Nothing more. You're reading too much into it by thinking it must mean Goku is the absolute strongest. Vegeta does not say in what regard Goku is #1 in.

And like we said it would be ridiculous to assume it must be about strength when he didn't defeat Boo with his own strength. It really isn't a weak argument. I think you're too blinded by the fact that you want Goku to be the strongest. I think you'll find the majority of the people on this forum are of the consensus that Goku is below the kids and Gohan. What does that tell you?

[MisterGuyMan]

I refer again to Vegeta's statement where he says he has no doubt that Goku us #1. Sure, we, the viewers have no clue when, where or how Vegeta has seen or even if he saw Gotenks or Gohan fight. All I know is that Vegeta believes he's seen enough to know that he has no doubt that Goku is still above them regardless. Unless we have another valid in universe expert chime in then the preponderance of evidence at this point sides with Vegeta.

Goku originally wanted Gohan and Gotenks to two on one Kid Buu. We see Buff Buu power up and never see him power down. Vegeta says Goku is the best before the Kid Buu fight. Vegeta says there's no doubt Goku is the best in the universe in DB Super. Daizenshuu said that the Buu Goku defeated was the strongest in the universe. Kid Buu also almost beat back a Genki Dama that had Gohan and a universe's worth of power. That's seven pieces of evidence for Kid Buu and only one piece of evidence for Super Buu. You can even add Uub's fight against Goku and Goku's expectations in fighting Uub in there too.

Also important is that all the Kid Buu stuff is newer information. Likely as Super Buu was introduced he was supposed to be the ultimate bad guy but as the story progressed the story shifted its intention. Toriyama might have never imagined Kid Buu so wrote Super to be the most powerful at the time but once Kid Buu became a thing, all the evidence past that point leans to him.

I'd also like to add that while Genki isnt entirely Ki a higher power level does contribute more. The Genki Dama comprising of just Goku's friends is significantly bigger per capita compared to the final one we see comprising of billions of Earthlings and the rest of the universe.

[Darkprince410]

I refer again to Vegeta's statement where he says he has no doubt that Goku us #1. Sure, we, the viewers have no clue when, where or how Vegeta has seen or even if he saw Gotenks or Gohan fight. All I know is that Vegeta believes he's seen enough to know that he has no doubt that Goku is still above them regardless. Unless we have another valid in universe expert chime in then the preponderance of evidence at this point sides with Vegeta.

Goku originally wanted Gohan and Gotenks to two on one Kid Buu. We see Buff Buu power up and never see him power down. Vegeta says Goku is the best before the Kid Buu fight. Vegeta says there's no doubt Goku is the best in the universe in DB Super. Daizenshuu said that the Buu Goku defeated was the strongest in the universe. Kid Buu also almost beat back a Genki Dama that had Gohan and a universe's worth of power. That's seven pieces of evidence for Kid Buu and only one piece of evidence for Super Buu. You can even add Uub's fight against Goku and Goku's expectations in fighting Uub in there too.

1) Vegeta says that there's no doubt that Goku is #1 because he defeated Ma-jin Buu, a feat that he did without his own strength being a factor (since he used the Genki Dama). Given this, Vegeta's line isn't in reference to Goku's strength. Instead, it could simply be that Goku's now #1 because he beat the strongest enemy overall that the Z Senshi ever faced, the one that everyone else had failed to do, Ma-jin Buu (nothing specific form wise, just that he beat their strongest foe).

2) Overkill on Goku's part to want them to fight Pure Buu together?

3) Goku indicates a notable power decrease when Buu reverts down to Pure Buu though, shouting out "We did it!", indicating success, and that they may now be able to manage something. Since the only two goals Goku and Vegeta had at that point were 1) Freeing Gohan and the others and 2) Weakening Buu down to where they could fight him on their own, and #1 had already been fulfilled long before Goku's excited "We did it!", that'd point to it being in reference to #2. While they had weakened Buu when they reverted him to regular Evil Buu, Goku indicates they were getting close to #2, but hadn't succeeded, yet when Pure Buu fully formed, Goku indicated they had succeeded in #2, thus Pure Buu was weaker than Evil Buu.

4) If that's in reference to the "Only you can fight him" line, Gohan and the others are dead, thus they're out of the picture anyway. At the time, Goku and Vegeta are it as far as fighters go, so all Vegeta is saying is that Goku is the only one between the two that can fight him. If it's in regards to his #1 line then, the entire dialogue Vegeta has is about Goku's motivations for fighting and why he's the best fighter, nothing about actual strength.

5) See #1

6) The Daizenshuu takes information from both the manga and anime, so that can simply be correct as far as the anime is concerned. There are other guides that state that Buu lost power when he lost his absorptions (and uses Mr. Buu's cocoon being ripped away as an illustration for this), that Gohan possesses power surpassing Super Saiya-jin 3 (not specifying an individual either, so likely referring to both Goku and Gotenks), etc

7) Because Goku himself was too weak to throw it. That's expressly stated that it wasn't the power of the Genki Dama that was the trouble, simply that Goku was too weak.

Vegeta: “I didn’t pla-plan on this…! Kakarot doesn’t have the sta-stamina to fire that all-important Genki-Dama…!”

Besides, as stated earlier, the Genki Dama draws on a person's genki, not their total ki. According to Toriyama's statement in the Super Exciting Guide, ki is comprised of several elements, with genki being just one of those elements. It is this element, comprising a fraction of a person's total ki, that is donated when it comes to the Genki Dama. So it wasn't that Gohan's ki wasn't enough, just that his genki wasn't enough. Additionally, it wasn't from the universe either. The Genki Dama that killed Buu took genki from the people of Earth, Namek, and those at the check-in station in the Afterlife, not the entire universe.