Older DBZ movies compared to BoG/FnF

[SaintEvolution]

I won't call Broli original since he is just another surviving saiyan like Radditz, Nappa, Vegeta and Tullece expect for that he can go SSj. Dr. Uiro is probably one of the most original 13 movie villains. I have to agree that Movie 2 didn't felt like a rip off of the RR Army saga at all. It's cool that Toei did their own evil powerful mad scientist before Toriyama created Dr. Gero in the manga.

Broly has an original personality and construction. His reasons were silly/lame in some level, but he was an original character(most than Turles, at least).

[fadeddreams5]

Ehhh...


Comparing only the older movies, Bojack and his crew are probably...the best villains.

They are mediocre characters with awful backgrounds and developments. But they are not retcon of any villian of the series/manga(as most part part of the older villains). They are original, in oposition of Garlic Jr.(more serious and evil Pilaf), Androids 13/14/15(retcons of the Androids), or Cooler(retcon of Freeza), for examples . Only Broly(only in the 8th Movie) and Hirudegarn(and the old guy that invokes him that name I don't remember) are original characters. Well, maybe Bojack had that transformation thing inspired by Cell, but besides that, he is not a shitty copy of other villain.

None of the villains you mentioned are retcons of anything. Garlic Jr, for one, is NOTHING like Pilaf, except for his first form's design. Besides that, he has a cunning personality, and his backstory is among the most unique in comparison to other DBZ movie villains. Cooler is not at all a retcon of Frieza. How can he be when he's his brother? He's not a rehash either, if that's what you mean. Generic personality aside, his motives make sense in the first movie. Androids 13/14/15 are bland characters, and an unnecessary extension to Gero's android line, but they still possess more personality than Bojack's crew, and their goal makes sense, given that they are Gero's creations.

Also, it makes no sense to compare Dr. Wheelo to Gero when the former came first, and both his motives and personality are completely different. Out of all the movie villains, Wheelo's motives are probably the most original.

Bojack and his crew had no personality. They came out of NOWHERE and just started doing evil stuff...because. No matter how unoriginal the rest of the movie villains are, such as Lord Slug, at least they have some personality and clear cut motives. These guys are so random, and have the dumbest backstory (they were sealed...by the kais? Really?!). The funniest thing is, we don't even get most of their names in the actual movie. lol.

[Hellspawn28]

Garlic Jr is pretty original too since he has a original backstory and he is not a rehash of any other past villain. His backstory with Kami was pretty nicely done and he was the major bad guy that was not defeated by Goku. Fans may dislike him, but him, Hiruedegarn and Dr. Uiro are probably the best written villains out of the 13 movies. Janemba is a fun villain, but he could have been much better. Hiruedegarn may be a brainless monster, but his backstory with Tapion was nicely told and him being a kajiu makes me hin stand out from the others.

[WittyUsername]

For me honestly, I'm still of the opinion that movie 13 is the best DBZ movie. I haven't yet seen the English dub for RoF, but from what I have seen of the film, there's not much too it other than some cool fight scenes.

[Sayo-chan]

And why was cringey? You didn't have explaned that.

Cringey: causing one to cringe, as in embarrassment or disgust

Because it was incredibly awkward and overall poorly executed.

About the plot, BoG had originality, characters with a minimum of decent development(you can't say that Beerus is a less well developed character than the empty characters of most of the older movies, like Android 13 or Tullece).

What's original about it? It's just a birthday party+some asshole gods that really shouldn't exist. Beerus isn't well developed, he's basically Goku+Vegeta. Not enough happens to really define anything else about him.

And OK with the 2nd movie's year. But it certainly was not did to be an "alternative reality",

Says who?

but just to fanservice reasons.

Like what? What "fanservice" reasons?

And about the coreography, we had some good fights, but the last one(between Gohan and Garlic Jr.) was just a bad non-explained plot armor.

There was nothing bad about the fight. Nothing at all. What "plot armor"?

And about the execution, the narrative was totally out of order. For example, Goku and Piccolo started to fight BEFORE Garlic Jr. would be already defeated. In 32:20:

How doesn't it make sense? Goku wasn't there for Garlic Jr., he was there for Gohan. They teamed up once they realized what a threat he was.

That was totally nonsense and one of the reasons because it's just a schizophrenic narrative. And yet about fight's coreographys, actually, the final fight between Goku and Beerus was well coreoghaphed, it was not just a cheap and only free show of lights.

You still haven't explained what's "schizophrenic" about it. The animation was mediocre as a whole product. The art however, was horrendous throughout the movie. There was nothing that stood out about the choreography.

Having some little errors is not a big deal. The regular series have some errors, BoG and RoF had some too. But GT, and most of the older movies are not in this level. They were almost complete mistakes(with exceptions of the animation/soundtrack/some fights), and Dead Zone was just one of the worses of them. I had showed some points about it in this commentary before. Dead Zone is an interestant film if you care about fights and animation, but if you just pay attention to narrative and plot questions, you just see how lame and bad is this aspect. If you had talked about Bojack Unbound or Wrath of the Dragon(that are the best of the older movies), I would had a not jerk reaction, cause they are not so bad as Dead Zone, or as Return of Cooler, or Super Android 13, or the 2nd and 3rd Broly's movies, or some others.

How is Return my Gohan!! one of the "worses"? You still haven't provided any legit reasons. There's nothing wrong with the plot and actually has the some of fewest continuity problems out of any movie. You're also not explaining how continuity errors makes something bad, or how anything is lame at all. You're just saying it is. Same with why you think Bojack is any good, because I'd love to debunk whatever it is you have to say about that mediocre movie. The fact you're saying it's somehow worse than Bio-Broly is making me question your thought process.

[SaintEvolution]

Ehhh...


Comparing only the older movies, Bojack and his crew are probably...the best villains.

They are mediocre characters with awful backgrounds and developments. But they are not retcon of any villian of the series/manga(as most part part of the older villains). They are original, in oposition of Garlic Jr.(more serious and evil Pilaf), Androids 13/14/15(retcons of the Androids), or Cooler(retcon of Freeza), for examples . Only Broly(only in the 8th Movie) and Hirudegarn(and the old guy that invokes him that name I don't remember) are original characters. Well, maybe Bojack had that transformation thing inspired by Cell, but besides that, he is not a shitty copy of other villain.

None of the villains you mentioned are retcons of anything. Garlic Jr, for one, is NOTHING like Pilaf, except for his first form's design. Besides that, he has a cunning personality, and his backstory is among the most unique in comparison to other DBZ movie villains. Cooler is not at all a retcon of Freeza. How can he be when he's his brother? He's not a rehash either, if that's what you mean. Generic personality aside, his motives make sense in the first movie. Androids 13/14/15 are bland characters, and an unnecessary extension to Gero's android line, but they still possess more personality than Bojack's crew, and their goal makes sense, given that they are Gero's creations.

Also, it makes no sense to compare Dr. Wheelo to Gero when the former came first, and both his motives and personality are completely different. Out of all the movie villains, Wheelo's motives are probably the most original.

Bojack and his crew had no personality. They came out of NOWHERE and just started doing evil stuff...because. No matter how unoriginal the rest of the movie villains are, such as Lord Slug, at least they have some personality and clear cut motives. These guys are so random, and have the dumbest backstory (they were sealed...by the kais? Really?!). The funniest thing is, we don't even get most of their names in the actual movie. lol.

Actually, Pilaf and Garlic Jr. had some similarities. Garlic is more serious, of course. But maybe you are right about it. But now...Cooler is a retcon of Frieza. I don't know how other exactly way he could be being Frieza's brother, but they are very similar in many aspects.

Androids 13, 14 and 15 are extremely bland, as Bojack's crew was, and as Slug's crew was, and as Turles's crew was too. The only difference between them, is the originality of Bojack's crew. And yeah, when you don't know the years that the characters were created, it makes sense to compare them(in the case of Gero and Weello).

And why was cringey? You didn't have explaned that.

Cringey: causing one to cringe, as in embarrassment or disgust

Because it was incredibly awkward and overall poorly executed.

About the plot, BoG had originality, characters with a minimum of decent development(you can't say that Beerus is a less well developed character than the empty characters of most of the older movies, like Android 13 or Tullece).

What's original about it? It's just a birthday party+some asshole gods that really shouldn't exist. Beerus isn't well developed, he's basically Goku+Vegeta. Not enough happens to really define anything else about him.

And OK with the 2nd movie's year. But it certainly was not did to be an "alternative reality",

Says who?

but just to fanservice reasons.

Like what? What "fanservice" reasons?

And about the coreography, we had some good fights, but the last one(between Gohan and Garlic Jr.) was just a bad non-explained plot armor.

There was nothing bad about the fight. Nothing at all. What "plot armor"?

And about the execution, the narrative was totally out of order. For example, Goku and Piccolo started to fight BEFORE Garlic Jr. would be already defeated. In 32:20:

How doesn't it make sense? Goku wasn't there for Garlic Jr., he was there for Gohan. They teamed up once they realized what a threat he was.

That was totally nonsense and one of the reasons because it's just a schizophrenic narrative. And yet about fight's coreographys, actually, the final fight between Goku and Beerus was well coreoghaphed, it was not just a cheap and only free show of lights.

You still haven't explained what's "schizophrenic" about it. The animation was mediocre as a whole product. The art however, was horrendous throughout the movie. There was nothing that stood out about the choreography.

Having some little errors is not a big deal. The regular series have some errors, BoG and RoF had some too. But GT, and most of the older movies are not in this level. They were almost complete mistakes(with exceptions of the animation/soundtrack/some fights), and Dead Zone was just one of the worses of them. I had showed some points about it in this commentary before. Dead Zone is an interestant film if you care about fights and animation, but if you just pay attention to narrative and plot questions, you just see how lame and bad is this aspect. If you had talked about Bojack Unbound or Wrath of the Dragon(that are the best of the older movies), I would had a not jerk reaction, cause they are not so bad as Dead Zone, or as Return of Cooler, or Super Android 13, or the 2nd and 3rd Broly's movies, or some others.

How is Return my Gohan!! one of the "worses"? You still haven't provided any legit reasons. There's nothing wrong with the plot and actually has the some of fewest continuity problems out of any movie. You're also not explaining how continuity errors makes something bad, or how anything is lame at all. You're just saying it is. Same with why you think Bojack is any good, because I'd love to debunk whatever it is you have to say about that mediocre movie. The fact you're saying it's somehow worse than Bio-Broly is making me question your thought process.

And why was "poorly executed"? Cause there are only a little few errors(like Mr. Satan doesn't recongnizing Dende).

You are probably confuising "cringey" with "funny"(or the kind of fun the movie has, that is the essence of the original Dragon Ball and a big part of Z too).

And how the f*ck could Beerus being "Goku + Vegeta" 's personality? Just explain me, please, cause his personality and development has nothing similar to a "Goku + Vegeta" personality. And many things happens to defines him. He is an unstable, braggart and spoiled god-cat, what worked very well with his many sides(the social and happy side when he was at Bulma's party, and the fiercious and serious side, when he foughts with Goku, Vegeta and the others).

About the second Movie and the idea of "paralel realities/alternative timelines". This idea was just putted in practice after Androids Saga, and was only developed most recently, with Battle of Gods and Xenoverse. I don't have to know more to say that they didn't had thought about alternative timelines to write the old movies. It was fanservice to show more characters, show more fights, and sells more products(like Action Figures and many others).

And I actually said some legit reasons. Garlic was the threat, also, both Goku and Piccolo could senses Ki, and Garlic Jr.'s Ki was alright that time, he obviously wasn't dead, and like retarded kids, Goku and Piccolo just started to fight in that extremely inapropriated and awkward moment(also, Goku didn't have catched Gohan already that time), and that is just one of the various errors of this movie. If you don't recognize it as an error, you really didn't understanded the movie, or don't understand much about plot or development(or maybe you are just a troll).


Oh...and about the plot armor, just look: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor
The older movies are full of them.

[Sayo-chan]

And why was "poorly executed"? Cause there are only a little few errors(like Mr. Satan doesn't recongnizing Dende).

Because the movie is a slice of life+a really stupid shonen plot device+Kaio-ken reject Goku.

You are probably confuising "cringey" with "funny"(or the kind of fun the movie has, that is the essence of the original Dragon Ball and a big part of Z too).

I'm not confusing anything. It was cringey, lame, pathetic, etc. Vegeta being out of character = essence of Dragon Ball? Yeah, no.

And how the f*ck could Beerus being "Goku + Vegeta" 's personality? Just explain me, please, cause his personality and development has nothing similar to a "Goku + Vegeta" personality.

He's an idiot like Goku, selfish like the both of them, and a dick like Vegeta. I see nothing special about him beyond his title.

And many things happens to defines him. He is an unstable, braggart and spoiled god-cat, what worked very well with his many sides(the social and happy side when he was at Bulma's party, and the fiercious and serious side, when he foughts with Goku, Vegeta and the others).

Unstable like Vegeta used to be. Braggart? Oh, like Vegeta. Spoiled? Also like Vegeta. Many sides? He's an all-around dick.

About the second Movie and the idea of "paralel realities/alternative timelines". This idea was just putted in practice after Androids Saga, and was only developed most recently, with Battle of Gods and Xenoverse. I don't have to know more to say that they didn't had thought about alternative timelines to write the old movies. It was fanservice to show more characters, show more fights, and sells more products(like Action Figures and many others).

Alternative continuity /=/ another timeline. For all we know it's Goku's fever dream, but it doesn't matter, nor does whether or not it's from another timeline. That operates independently of whether or not the movie's good. It's not a strike against it. Also, just because timelines were a thing later on, doesn't somehow mean its immune to being in a different one.

And I actually said some legit reasons. Garlic was the threat, also, both Goku and Piccolo could senses Ki, and Garlic Jr.'s Ki was alright that time, he obviously wasn't dead, and like retarded kids, Goku and Piccolo just started to fight in that extremely inapropriated and awkward moment(also, Goku didn't have catched Gohan already that time), and that is just one of the various errors of this movie. If you don't recognize it as an error, you really didn't understanded the movie, or don't understand much about plot or development(or maybe you are just a troll).

Garlic Jr.'s ki was probably too low to distract them from their tunnel vision. There's plenty of explanations. It's not all that significant. So no, that's really not a good reason at all. I don't even know what you're talking about now. He didn't "catched Gohan"? He was with Krillin. Uh.. I understand the movie just fine, because it's a rehash of the arrival of Raditz plot. You seem to nitpicking random things that don't have faults.

Oh...and about the plot armor, just look: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor
The older movies are full of them.

I... know what plot armor is. I was asking how it was remotely relevant? I'm not doing your research for you and searching a database akin to a wikia.

[SaintEvolution]

And why was "poorly executed"? Cause there are only a little few errors(like Mr. Satan doesn't recongnizing Dende).

Because the movie is a slice of life+a really stupid shonen plot device+Kaio-ken reject Goku.

You are probably confuising "cringey" with "funny"(or the kind of fun the movie has, that is the essence of the original Dragon Ball and a big part of Z too).

I'm not confusing anything. It was cringey, lame, pathetic, etc. Vegeta being out of character = essence of Dragon Ball? Yeah, no.

And how the f*ck could Beerus being "Goku + Vegeta" 's personality? Just explain me, please, cause his personality and development has nothing similar to a "Goku + Vegeta" personality.

He's an idiot like Goku, selfish like the both of them, and a dick like Vegeta. I see nothing special about him beyond his title.

And many things happens to defines him. He is an unstable, braggart and spoiled god-cat, what worked very well with his many sides(the social and happy side when he was at Bulma's party, and the fiercious and serious side, when he foughts with Goku, Vegeta and the others).

Unstable like Vegeta used to be. Braggart? Oh, like Vegeta. Spoiled? Also like Vegeta. Many sides? He's an all-around dick.

About the second Movie and the idea of "paralel realities/alternative timelines". This idea was just putted in practice after Androids Saga, and was only developed most recently, with Battle of Gods and Xenoverse. I don't have to know more to say that they didn't had thought about alternative timelines to write the old movies. It was fanservice to show more characters, show more fights, and sells more products(like Action Figures and many others).

Alternative continuity /=/ another timeline. For all we know it's Goku's fever dream, but it doesn't matter, nor does whether or not it's from another timeline. That operates independently of whether or not the movie's good. It's not a strike against it. Also, just because timelines were a thing later on, doesn't somehow mean its immune to being in a different one.

And I actually said some legit reasons. Garlic was the threat, also, both Goku and Piccolo could senses Ki, and Garlic Jr.'s Ki was alright that time, he obviously wasn't dead, and like retarded kids, Goku and Piccolo just started to fight in that extremely inapropriated and awkward moment(also, Goku didn't have catched Gohan already that time), and that is just one of the various errors of this movie. If you don't recognize it as an error, you really didn't understanded the movie, or don't understand much about plot or development(or maybe you are just a troll).

Garlic Jr.'s ki was probably too low to distract them from their tunnel vision. There's plenty of explanations. It's not all that significant. So no, that's really not a good reason at all. I don't even know what you're talking about now. He didn't "catched Gohan"? He was with Krillin. Uh.. I understand the movie just fine, because it's a rehash of the arrival of Raditz plot. You seem to nitpicking random things that don't have faults.

Oh...and about the plot armor, just look: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor
The older movies are full of them.

I... know what plot armor is. I was asking how it was remotely relevant? I'm not doing your research for you and searching a database akin to a wikia.

Been a slice of life is not a problem. It was the propose of the movie You wanted action and other things, but the movie is not bad just because it was not what you was expecting. Is actually you the one who don't like some nitipicking reasons and having them as errors without arguments.

And Vegeta was not "out of the character". He just changed, he was not the old pride and evil warrior he was. Also his relation with Beerus was very different of all things he have passed before. And Vegeta was never an unstable character, he was nervous and pride of himself, but not unstable or spoiled. And no, the idiot side of Beerus is very different of Goku's. Beerus would be like a mad spoiled child, while Goku would be the innocent one. And Vegeta never was like Beerus in terms of dickness. Vegeta was an evil guy, but not a real dick. Also, you didn't had showed any decent argument about this until now.


And returning to Garlic Jr movie....so, we can take GT as "goku fever dream" right? Cause most of older movies(include Garlic one) are bad as GT was, or almost is.

And the Ki thing, maybe Garlic could have lowed by himself, but Goku and Piccolo never were stupid at the point to not check if the opponent was already defeated, include because Garlic Jr. had showed before that he was a very stronger guy. Also, they continued to fight after Garlic Jr. had showed himself out of the rocks alive. About Gohan, yeah you are right, but about all of the rest, you didn't had showed good arguments.

And with the plot armor things, the point is that in most of time and productions(not only Dragon Ball older movies) they are bad executed, lazy and just rush the plot with the main character victorious/winner with silly reasons and/or nonsense explanations.

[Sayo-chan]

Been a slice of life is not a problem.

It is if you're saying the movie has some great plot. It's pretty mundane, and that's illustrated through the fact it's just that: a slice of life. No there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but don't pretend it's anything more than that.

It was the propose of the movie You wanted action and other things, but the movie is not bad just because it was not what you was expecting. Is actually you the one who don't like some nitipicking reasons and having them as errors without arguments.

Uh... how is that the "purpose" of the movie? I see no indication that living day to day is the purpose of the movie, that doesn't even make sense. I do? Why are you telling me what I want? Also why are you assuming I expected something different? Why are you making all these baseless assumptions...? I don't even understand what you're trying to say in that last bit. What errors are being nitpicked? I stated things I didn't like about the movie and gave arguments why I didn't like these things, expanding on them when asked. What exactly do you still have a problem with?

And Vegeta was not "out of the character". He just changed, he was not the old pride and evil warrior he was.

Vegeta demonstrated qualities he would never possess. I'm mainly referring to that godawful bingo dance scene. Just because he's not an evil warrior doesn't mean he's the type of guy that makes an idiot of himself in front of dozens of people, especially when he doesn't care for most of them. That's too drastic a change.

Also his relation with Beerus was very different of all things he have passed before. And Vegeta was never an unstable character, he was nervous and pride of himself, but not unstable or spoiled.

His relation to Beerus was what? I don't understand what you're saying here at all.

Vegeta was always unstable, that's why he allowed Cell to become complete and Boo to be released. How was he ever nervous? He was confident he'd beat Cell and Goku. Maybe nervous when he realized he was losing, but how is that relevant? He was spoiled, he was a prince that got everything he wanted until Freeza took him, and even then he was treated like royalty. That's why he's a prideful dick.

And no, the idiot side of Beerus is very different of Goku's. Beerus would be like a mad spoiled child, while Goku would be the innocent one. And Vegeta never was like Beerus in terms of dickness. Vegeta was an evil guy, but not a real dick. Also, you didn't had showed any decent argument about this until now.

Beerus does act like a naive manchild though. What god wants to blow up a planet over pudding? That's not mature in the slightest. It's like taking the worst qualities of both characters and polymerizing them into one. They were both evil dicks, I don't even see how this is debatable. They both slaughtered people minding their own business for arbitrary reasons. How's that not being a prick?

And returning to Garlic Jr movie....so, we can take GT as "goku fever dream" right? Cause most of older movies(include Garlic one) are bad as GT was, or almost is.

You're taking my statements out of context. I said it could be, but it doesn't matter. GT spans too long to be a dream, maybe a drug induced coma, sure, but beyond comedic effect it has no relevance to this discussion. I don't see how the first movie is even remotely comparable. I also don't think as a whole product that GT was really all that bad.

And the Ki thing, maybe Garlic could have lowed by himself, but Goku and Piccolo never were stupid at the point to not check if the opponent was already defeated, include because Garlic Jr. had showed before that he was a very stronger guy. Also, they continued to fight after Garlic Jr. had showed himself out of the rocks alive. About Gohan, yeah you are right, but about all of the rest, you didn't had showed good arguments.

All you're saying is "you don't have good arguments" without actually saying why. From an in-universe perspective it wasn't the smartest move, but it was very in character and it likely wouldn't have made a difference in the plot if they hadn't. It still doesn't affect the worth of the movie in a bad way.

And with the plot armor things, the point is that in most of time and productions(not only Dragon Ball older movies) they are bad executed, lazy and just rush the plot with the main character victorious/winner with silly reasons and/or nonsense explanations.

Okay...? That still doesn't explain why you brought it up. If anything that seems more applicable to the new movies than Return my Gohan!!, especially considering you still haven't given any reasons as to why or how the plot is "rushed", "schizophrenic" or "badly executed".

[HybridSaiyan]

Lets face the fact, every Dragon Ball movie was good and enjoyable. All of them had really good battle scenes with really good animation. I don't see why any Dragon Ball fan would consider the older movies to be garbage though. If anything the older movies provided a lot more brutal and violent brawls. Take Broly for example. I was literally panicking out my head when I saw him torture Goku nearing the end of the movie. Damn, the older stuff was far more gruesome than what it is today.

[Doctor.]

Lets face the fact, every Dragon Ball movie was good and enjoyable. All of them had really good battle scenes with really good animation. I don't see why any Dragon Ball fan would consider the older movies to be garbage though. If anything the older movies provided a lot more brutal and violent brawls. Take Broly for example. I was literally panicking out my head when I saw him torture Goku nearing the end of the movie. Damn, the older stuff was far more gruesome than what it is today.

I say Bio Broly is pretty deserving of "garbage" status, literally.

[HybridSaiyan]

Lets face the fact, every Dragon Ball movie was good and enjoyable. All of them had really good battle scenes with really good animation. I don't see why any Dragon Ball fan would consider the older movies to be garbage though. If anything the older movies provided a lot more brutal and violent brawls. Take Broly for example. I was literally panicking out my head when I saw him torture Goku nearing the end of the movie. Damn, the older stuff was far more gruesome than what it is today.

I say Bio Broly is pretty deserving of "garbage" status, literally.

Yeah okay, that movie wasn't on par with the rest however, it provided more screen time for Krillin and 18 which I somewhat enjoyed. Even if 18 should have been stronger than Trunks and Goten lol.

[Kamiccolo9]

Lets face the fact, every Dragon Ball movie was good and enjoyable. All of them had really good battle scenes with really good animation. I don't see why any Dragon Ball fan would consider the older movies to be garbage though. If anything the older movies provided a lot more brutal and violent brawls. Take Broly for example. I was literally panicking out my head when I saw him torture Goku nearing the end of the movie. Damn, the older stuff was far more gruesome than what it is today.

I say Bio Broly is pretty deserving of "garbage" status, literally.

Super 13 was pretty "meh" too, in my opinion.

[Gaffer Tape]

Eh, most of the Z movies are pretty underwhelming. I have a soft spot for a few of them (1, 2, 3, 9), and I can definitely sit through all of them and enjoy myself, but they're pretty hollow, formulaic shells. Love the Dragon Ball movies, though. Well, I love two of the Dragon Ball movies.

[Lord Beerus]

Lets face the fact, every Dragon Ball movie was good and enjoyable. All of them had really good battle scenes with really good animation. I don't see why any Dragon Ball fan would consider the older movies to be garbage though. If anything the older movies provided a lot more brutal and violent brawls. Take Broly for example. I was literally panicking out my head when I saw him torture Goku nearing the end of the movie. Damn, the older stuff was far more gruesome than what it is today.

I say Bio Broly is pretty deserving of "garbage" status, literally.

Super 13 was pretty "meh" too, in my opinion.

I didn't care for Movie 6 either. But SSJ Goku and Vegeta taking on Meta Cooler was pretty damn cool.

[LuckyCat]

I liked all the old movies when I saw them originally and coupled with their respective main story arcs. They're great for emphasizing some of the franchise's memorable moments. For example, Vegeta saving Goku from near death only because defeating Goku was his role Is great moment that movie 6 captures well. Also movie 12 brings a fun new type of villain into the mix and has some great comedic moments for the entire cast including old villains.

That said, I think BoG and RoF operate a completely different level storywise. BoG gives us an antagonist who isn't simply evil, but has layers to his personality. Despite having a temper, Beerus is intelligent and operates on a certain philosophy with his destruction. He can be patient, and is willing to help Goku find his way into becoming a God, and even explore what it means to be a god with Goku. Then, Goku too actually develops in the movie and we finally understand why he likes fighting and why he works hard for his own personal strength.

As for RoF, there are elements of the old movie style in the plot, but the similarities end there. We get this great setup with Whis pointing out the flaws in the two main Saiyan characters' nature. This brief moment becomes exposition as we see the main characters flaws in action, and how they work using a major series villain to correct those flaws.

So while the old movies are great action satisfaction that tap into the old DBZ series, they can't match the depth and development the new movies bring. And I don't think they were ever meant to.

[SaintEvolution]

Been a slice of life is not a problem.

It is if you're saying the movie has some great plot. It's pretty mundane, and that's illustrated through the fact it's just that: a slice of life. No there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but don't pretend it's anything more than that.

It was the propose of the movie You wanted action and other things, but the movie is not bad just because it was not what you was expecting. Is actually you the one who don't like some nitipicking reasons and having them as errors without arguments.

Uh... how is that the "purpose" of the movie? I see no indication that living day to day is the purpose of the movie, that doesn't even make sense. I do? Why are you telling me what I want? Also why are you assuming I expected something different? Why are you making all these baseless assumptions...? I don't even understand what you're trying to say in that last bit. What errors are being nitpicked? I stated things I didn't like about the movie and gave arguments why I didn't like these things, expanding on them when asked. What exactly do you still have a problem with?

And Vegeta was not "out of the character". He just changed, he was not the old pride and evil warrior he was.

Vegeta demonstrated qualities he would never possess. I'm mainly referring to that godawful bingo dance scene. Just because he's not an evil warrior doesn't mean he's the type of guy that makes an idiot of himself in front of dozens of people, especially when he doesn't care for most of them. That's too drastic a change.

Also his relation with Beerus was very different of all things he have passed before. And Vegeta was never an unstable character, he was nervous and pride of himself, but not unstable or spoiled.

His relation to Beerus was what? I don't understand what you're saying here at all.

Vegeta was always unstable, that's why he allowed Cell to become complete and Boo to be released. How was he ever nervous? He was confident he'd beat Cell and Goku. Maybe nervous when he realized he was losing, but how is that relevant? He was spoiled, he was a prince that got everything he wanted until Freeza took him, and even then he was treated like royalty. That's why he's a prideful dick.

And no, the idiot side of Beerus is very different of Goku's. Beerus would be like a mad spoiled child, while Goku would be the innocent one. And Vegeta never was like Beerus in terms of dickness. Vegeta was an evil guy, but not a real dick. Also, you didn't had showed any decent argument about this until now.

Beerus does act like a naive manchild though. What god wants to blow up a planet over pudding? That's not mature in the slightest. It's like taking the worst qualities of both characters and polymerizing them into one. They were both evil dicks, I don't even see how this is debatable. They both slaughtered people minding their own business for arbitrary reasons. How's that not being a prick?

And returning to Garlic Jr movie....so, we can take GT as "goku fever dream" right? Cause most of older movies(include Garlic one) are bad as GT was, or almost is.

You're taking my statements out of context. I said it could be, but it doesn't matter. GT spans too long to be a dream, maybe a drug induced coma, sure, but beyond comedic effect it has no relevance to this discussion. I don't see how the first movie is even remotely comparable. I also don't think as a whole product that GT was really all that bad.

And the Ki thing, maybe Garlic could have lowed by himself, but Goku and Piccolo never were stupid at the point to not check if the opponent was already defeated, include because Garlic Jr. had showed before that he was a very stronger guy. Also, they continued to fight after Garlic Jr. had showed himself out of the rocks alive. About Gohan, yeah you are right, but about all of the rest, you didn't had showed good arguments.

All you're saying is "you don't have good arguments" without actually saying why. From an in-universe perspective it wasn't the smartest move, but it was very in character and it likely wouldn't have made a difference in the plot if they hadn't. It still doesn't affect the worth of the movie in a bad way.

And with the plot armor things, the point is that in most of time and productions(not only Dragon Ball older movies) they are bad executed, lazy and just rush the plot with the main character victorious/winner with silly reasons and/or nonsense explanations.

Okay...? That still doesn't explain why you brought it up. If anything that seems more applicable to the new movies than Return my Gohan!!, especially considering you still haven't given any reasons as to why or how the plot is "rushed", "schizophrenic" or "badly executed".

A good production is a production that makes well the propose of it. Battle of Gods proposes a mundane/comedy with some action/light story. Being "mundane" it's not bad just because it's "mundane". It's the own purpose of the show. And I say that YOU was expecting something different cause YOU did that sub-understandable for what you said before.

And Vegeta in Saiyan Saga was supposed to never be a good guy with a son and a wife. He just changed by the time, and the situation too(his relation with Beerus is a relation of extreme fear and respect, things that he doesn't have for other people).

And I compared GT to the old movies cause them are in general schizophrenic and bad. GT has many logical and chronological problems, as most of the old movies.

Beerus is a spoiled character, but that really fits for funny and non-serious situations. He was not created to be like Frieza or Cell. It's again, the purpose of the character.
And actually, I said the why you don't have good arguments. Most of my arguments about Dead Zone refuted your's. Also, about Piccolo and Goku's strange fast fight, it was just one point that makes the movie bad. It has others.

Okay...? That still doesn't explain why you brought it up. If anything that seems more applicable to the new movies than Return my Gohan!!, especially considering you still haven't given any reasons as to why or how the plot is "rushed", "schizophrenic" or "badly executed".

I gave reasons. The retarded rushed fight between Goku and Piccolo was one of them. And there are more.

[SaintEvolution]

I liked all the old movies when I saw them originally and coupled with their respective main story arcs. They're great for emphasizing some of the franchise's memorable moments. For example, Vegeta saving Goku from near death only because defeating Goku was his role Is great moment that movie 6 captures well. Also movie 12 brings a fun new type of villain into the mix and has some great comedic moments for the entire cast including old villains..

Ehh...Janemba was not really a new type of villain. He was probably...a retcon of Majin Buu.

[VegettoEX]

The attitudes on display in this thread are absolutely unacceptable. Account strikes may (and likely will) be issued upon further review back into the thread. Trust me when I say that you do not want these. It may do you well to review the community guidelines that you agreed to (twice) prior to registration.

[Metalwario64]

Ehh...Janemba was not really a new type of villain. He was probably...a retcon of Majin Buu.

He was definitely not. Goku mentioned Buu after he turned Super Saiyan 3.