Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

1 Goku asked if that's what Vegeta was thinking,he didn't want to do it. Before he was EXTREMELY gun ho for passing on the torch,but he knew gohan was 2 weak.
2 he doesn't need to power up. if you raise your hand the bomb takes either some or in the this case "as much has they can possibly give"...humans cant use ki and yet they gave all their ki,the fusion doesn't need to happen,nor does thepower up.
3 but if gohan was stronger,even without gohan training which goku woulda made him do goku would stlll wanan fight gohan as the powerhouse he is for a challenge.
4 he shared a mind with goku,he knows the power of gohan. goha's power can be felt form supreme kai's world to earth,so vegeta would be able to sense gohan easily like super buu did at the same distance. Also Vegeta below Fat buu? BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! XD You need to re watch the fight,he owned fat buu. Toriyama forced buu to win to milk the saga more.
5. vegito doesn't need SSj,he just used it to humiliate buuhan more,and also ssj is more entertaining. we do know how potara works,its addition,old kai said so. he guide books are full of wrong statements.

1) Why would Goku assume it was Vegeta's plan if it wasn't a good plan to begin with? Likewise, if it wasn't a good plan, Vegeta would have berated Goku on the spot for it being a stupid idea and chided Gohan for being weak. He had absolutely no qualms earlier in the saga for pointing out Gohan was too weak for combat, so if he thought either Gohan or Gotenks were too weak to fight Pure Buu, he wouldn't have hesitated to say so.

2) The Genki Dama doesn't take a person's full ki, just their genki. According to Toriyama's statement in the Super Exciting Guide, ki is made up of several different elements, with genki being just one of them. It is the genki of a person's ki that is donated when it comes to the Genki Dama, so it's simply a matter of Gohan's genki not being high enough to beat Buu.

3) Actually the guide books and recent movies establish that Gohan pretty much stopped training again after the events of the Buu Saga, and his battle power tanked as a result.

4) Vegeta at no point said that Goku was above Gohan and the others in terms of power. If you're referring to the #1 statement he made when Goku was fighting Buu, the entire course of that dialogue was in regards to Goku's drive as a fighter and his motivations for fighting. If you're referring to the "Only you can fight him" statement, that's because Gohan and the others were dead. As for Vegeta being stronger than Fat Buu...no. The moment that Buu tapped into his strength upon getting angry, Vegeta became effectively nothing to him, and Piccolo even states that even if Gohan and Vegeta were both alive, Goku and them at Ssj2 wouldn't have been strong enough to take him on.

5) At no point is either fusion, Potara or otherwise, ever described as addition. Rou Kaioushin never says anything of the sort, so wherever you're getting that information from is wrong. Likewise, just because Vegetto was effortlessly dominating Buu while a Super Saiya-jin doesn't mean that he would have been able to beat him in his base form. Buu could have been ten times as strong as base Vegetto for all we know, and Ssj Vegetto would have still been more than powerful enough to dominate him effortlessly.[/quote]


1. He was just asking if that was his plan,it's all he could think of. It's a logical conclusion. And no Vegeta wouldn't. It was ahumble nobel moment of him trying to have the earth fend for itself and help,he isn't one for teamwork and this really shows growth. He wouldn't bash gohan if that's what you're saying. He failed to kill kid buu,saying he'd bash gohan for not killing kid buu is like saying he'd bash nappa for not being able to kill frieza back in the saiyan arc. Earlier in the saga he was pre majin. after the majin mid life crisis Vegeta changed. he went from being seen as hell worthy to being a good guy. He went through character development in the buu saga.

2. I don't go by the guidebooks,they don't add up to the show. Unless goku iwas actually below 4,000 vs vegeta in the saiyan arc.

3. Again I don't go by the guidebooks. and that doesnt excuse why goku wouldn't fight gohan after the buu fight was done. it'd take time for gohan to lose power and goku woulda foght him by then he'd be excited as hell to fight this fabeled gohan thatsurpsses goku.

4. The statement was about his power,no drive. Vegeta has more drive,Vegeta was saying goku was a better saiyan.

5. base vegito>buuhan,that's canon. If you go by manga only there's no proof their he could but I believe he can. Go to chapter 310 in the mnga,Old kai says the potara earings aren't what's giving vegito his power,it's goku and vegeta. that line about the rivalry making the fusion more compelte doesn't mean there's some rival boost it means it makes vegito a better person. no weaknesses of goku and vegeta like how vegeta's rruthlessness would cancle out goku's foolishness an overly nice attitude.

[Darkprince410]

1. He was just asking if that was his plan,it's all he could think of. It's a logical conclusion. And no Vegeta wouldn't. It was ahumble nobel moment of him trying to have the earth fend for itself and help,he isn't one for teamwork and this really shows growth. He wouldn't bash gohan if that's what you're saying. He failed to kill kid buu,saying he'd bash gohan for not killing kid buu is like saying he'd bash nappa for not being able to kill Freeza back in the saiyan arc. Earlier in the saga he was pre majin. after the majin mid life crisis Vegeta changed. he went from being seen as hell worthy to being a good guy. He went through character development in the buu saga.

2. I don't go by the guidebooks,they don't add up to the show. Unless goku iwas actually below 4,000 vs vegeta in the saiyan arc.

3. Again I don't go by the guidebooks. and that doesnt excuse why goku wouldn't fight gohan after the buu fight was done. it'd take time for gohan to lose power and goku woulda foght him by then he'd be excited as hell to fight this fabeled gohan thatsurpsses goku.

4. The statement was about his power,no drive. Vegeta has more drive,Vegeta was saying goku was a better saiyan.

5. base vegito>buuhan,that's canon. If you go by manga only there's no proof their he could but I believe he can. Go to chapter 310 in the mnga,Old kai says the potara earings aren't what's giving vegito his power,it's goku and vegeta. that line about the rivalry making the fusion more compelte doesn't mean there's some rival boost it means it makes vegito a better person. no weaknesses of goku and vegeta like how vegeta's rruthlessness would cancle out goku's foolishness an overly nice attitude.

1) He's actively berated Goku many times for foolish and stupid ideas (doing so again just after they returned to Earth too), so it makes absolutely no sense that he wouldn't berate him there if he considered it a bad idea.

2) For starters, even in the manga Goku specifically mentions taking genki from people, not just ki.

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”

Secondly, this is Toriyama's own statement on the nature of ki in the Dragon Ball universe, so there's no reason to just casually dismiss it.

Third, there's no reputable guide book that has Goku 4,000 below Vegeta during the Saiya-jin Saga. The Daizenshuu, for example, lists him at 8,000 in his base form, corresponding quite well with the "over 8,000" reading Vegeta gave him, and 32,000 for Goku at 4x Kaiou-ken (being 4x 8,000, which is reasonable, which in turn would make 2x 16,000, and 3x 24,000)

3) Because that wasn't his goal following the end of the battle with Buu? He expressly states to Vegeta that they should train so that, if they personally ever need to fight Buu again, they'll be ready to fight him one on one. Likewise, Goku specifically expressed interest in fighting Buu again as a good person. He wasn't just looking for a strong opponent or anything, rather he specifically wanted a rematch with a good version of Pure Buu.

4) The entire monologue Vegeta had when he was watching Goku fighting Pure Buu was about how he personally couldn't surpass Goku, that he thought at first it was because Goku had those he wanted to protect that drove him to better himself, but that Vegeta also having those to protect didn't change things. Vegeta then goes on that Goku was the better fighter because Vegeta enjoyed killing and fought for his pride, while Goku fought not to win, but because he refused to lose, making him the better as a result. None of that had to deal with him being the strongest or anything like that, just his own drives for fighting and bettering himself.

5) For one, no, it's not canon at all. At absolutely no point is it ever stated, shown, or even suggested that base Vegetto was stronger than Gohan Buu. In the manga, the moment after Vegetto forms, he transforms into a Super Saiya-jin, and that whole episode in the anime of him beating Buu around in his base form was filler. Likewise, that's not what Rou Kaioushin said. Kibitoshin commented that it was amazing how powerful Vegetto was, and that he had no idea that merging with the Potara would be that incredible (this being despite the fact that he himself was a fused being). Rou Kaioushin retorts that it's because it was Goku and Vegeta that fused that they were able to push the power of the fusion that far, indicating that the power of the fusion was even greater than it would have been normally because it was those two fusing, not that the Potara had no impact on the power of the fusion.

[RandomGuy96]

That's seven pieces of evidence for Kid Buu and only one piece of evidence for Super Buu.

Nope. Pure Buu still has zero pieces of evidence, while Super Buu still has a lot more than one piece.

1. Goku has trouble fighting Fat Buu, to the point that he's sweating bullets after their fight is done.

2. Goku states that SS Gotenks will be enough to defeat Fat Buu.

3. Goku states the same thing again, then says the difference in power between Gotenks and Buu will be so severe that exhibiting any caution is just a waste of time. He goes so far as to tell them not to use the ROSAT.

4. Goku states that SS Gotenks will be stronger than him as a SS3.

5. Piccolo, upon sensing SS Gotenks' power, never doubts he can defeat Fat Buu, who was several times stronger than SS2 Goku. He doesn't even throw Gotenks in the ROSAT until after Buu turns into Super Buu.

6. Gotenks, despite both his parts having sensed SS3 Goku before, states himself to be the strongest in the universe at several points.

7. Piccolo, at one point, thinks that base Gotenks can defeat someone stronger than Fat Buu. So again, the idea that he can be weaker than Goku with all this said is ridiculous.

8. Trunks says the same thing. Well, actually, he's a bit more humble. He says base Gotenks would be even with Majin Buu.

9. Goten says the same thing.

10. Grey Buu, who is inferior to Super Buu, does better than Pure Buu in their respective fights against the same character.

11. Elder Kaioshin states that Ultimate Gohan will be the strongest in the universe. While he's in the Afterlife, with Goku.

12. Elder Kaioshin states that the addition of Super Saiyan 3 Goku wouldn't even prolong the Buutenks-Gohan fight for another few minutes (which is all that would be needed for Buutenks to revert to Buuccolo).

13. When Buutenks reverts to Buuccolo, Goku states that Gohan can defeat him. Not himself.

14. When Goku and Vegeta first enter Super Buu's body, Goku warns Vegeta not to destroy the Potara earrings, since there's no guarantee they can rescue everyone and revert Buuhan to "the very first Buu of all". Given he says they're "almost there" when they get him down to Super Buu, and then calls the fat Buu "the very first one of all" when they see his pod, the intention here is pretty obvious. Goku (+Vegeta) can take Fat Buu, but not Super Buu. Otherwise, ripping out Gohan and the others wouldn't be "we're almost there", it would be "we did it!".

15. After he states "we're almost there", Goku says that they still absolutely cannot defeat Buu. Super Buu, that is. It's one of the clearest and most unambiguous statements in the manga. "Even though he's gotten a lot weaker, we're still no match for his strength! If we go out there, we'll definitely be done-in!". How this thread even exists with that statement being there (and being vital to the story, rather than a throwaway), I have no idea.

16. Goku states that the only way for them to defeat Super Buu without weakening him anymore is to use fusion.

17. When Super Buu confronts Goku and Vegeta inside his own body, he states that they're weak, and that he's going to kill them. This is despite him seeing and sensing SS3 Goku outside as Buutenks like ten minutes ago.

18. As Super Buu is confronting them, Goku is sweating bullets, has a clear look of worry, and yells at Vegeta for not fusing with him, which he just said was their only hope against Buu.
--The above four bits were all within a few pages of each other in the volume. How much clearer could Toriyama have possibly been?

19. Vegeta rips out Mr. Buu for the explicit purpose of making Super Buu weaker, so Goku can handle him. Goku never tries to stop him or says "actually, I can take this Buu...". Because he can't, and he needs that pod ripped out.

20. When Goku sees Buu turn into Pure Buu, he states: "We did it! Now we might finally be able to manage something!". He also expresses clear relief in contrast to his panic earlier when confronted with the thought of facing Super Buu or Buff Buu, who he was sensing at the time.

21. When offered the opportunity to fuse against Pure Buu, Goku rejects it, despite begging Vegeta to do the same against Super Buu ten minutes ago. Why? Because, "Buu ain't merged anymore either". In other words, them fighting Super Buu is comparable to Pure Buu fighting Vegetto. This should count as yet another outright statement that Buu is weaker now.

22. When Goku loses to Pure Buu, his first thought is to bring Gohan and Gotenks in to kill Buu. Note also how he doesn't say "bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us", despite Goku himself being equal to Pure Buu. He intends the kids to destroy Buu

23. Furthermore, neither Vegeta nor Goku ever doubt this would work. Goku asks him why they shouldn't just do that, and Vegeta twice responds with "I want to make a point about responsibility to the Earthlings". Goku also doesn't just ask for the dragon to restore his and Vegeta's power, even though just the two of them have a pretty fool-proof method for killing Buu. SS3 Goku can blow him apart, as he did three times in their fight, and then SS2 Vegeta can completely wipe out the pieces, as friggin' Piccolo was stated to be able to do. Adding in Mr. Buu, who can put up a fight against Pure Buu by himself, just makes this more one-sided in the good guys' favor, if all they want to do is kill Buu in the simplest way possible.

24. Finally, the whole Gohan genki point I made elsewhere.

I'm leaving out a lot of stuff, by the way. Like every single thing from the manga-based guidebooks, and a lot of indirect statements and feats in the manga.

I refer again to Vegeta's statement where he says he has no doubt that Goku us #1. Sure, we, the viewers have no clue when, where or how Vegeta has seen or even if he saw Gotenks or Gohan fight. All I know is that Vegeta believes he's seen enough to know that he has no doubt that Goku is still above them regardless. Unless we have another valid in universe expert chime in then the preponderance of evidence at this point sides with Vegeta.

Goku, Gotenks, Piccolo, and Buu chime in literally dozens of times about this throughout the Buu arc. In the manga. With statements that are completely unambiguous and blatant. Funny how you ignore that.

Goku originally wanted Gohan and Gotenks to two on one Kid Buu.

You're making things up. He never says he wants them both to attack him at the same time. If that's what he meant, there's no reason he wouldn't also include himself and Mr. Buu in the statement, since he's supposedly stronger than they are. Even if he did say that, which he didn't, it's still not proof of anything, since he can just want them to overkill Pure Buu. More likely he just wanted insurance in case a freak accident happened and one of them got absorbed.

We see Buff Buu power up and never see him power down.

You're making things up. Again. When he reverts to Pure Buu, Goku stops panicking and states "We did it! Now we can finally manage something!". That's an outright statement that he became weaker, especially considering earlier he said: "We're almost there! See! His ki dropped a lot!". And "Wait! Don't throw away the Potara! There's no guarantee that we can rescue the others and revert this Buu to a weak enough form/the very first Buu of all!".

You have to be willingly ignorant, and have an intense dislike of the idea that a story can connect on even the most basic level, to label Goku as the strongest.

Vegeta says Goku is the best before the Kid Buu fight.

While Gohan is dead and in line for processing, without a body. He then proceeds to talk about how Goku's personality and drive makes him #1, not his power level.

Vegeta says there's no doubt Goku is the best in the universe in DB Super.

One, Super is the anime, coming right off of Kai. It's irrelevant. Two, Vegeta says later that he needs to surpass Goku, the strongest saiyan, and "everyone else" before he can become the strongest. So Goku is not the strongest in the universe. Three, Vegeta was obviously not referring to combat ability, since he says that Goku was #1 because he killed Majin Buu. Even though he lost to Buu, even with Vegeta's help; he needed Mr. Buu's help and everyone else's energy to actually kill Buu.

Daizenshuu said that the Buu Goku defeated was the strongest in the universe.

No it doesn't. It says Majin Buu, in general, is the strongest in the universe, without specifying a form. The Daizenshuu also says:

-Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu (so, obviously, Gohan is much much stronger than either).
-Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 (a blanket statement, so referring to more than one).
-Base Goten and Trunks are equally as strong as base Gohan individually, and many times stronger as Gotenks (meaning it's literally impossible for them to NOT be insanely stronger than Goku, as Gotenks; especially in the same form).

Among other things. Then there are other guidebooks that say things like "ripping out Buu's absorptions made him weaker", with a picture of Mr. Buu's pod being ripped out to illustrate this.

Kid Buu also almost beat back a Genki Dama that had Gohan and a universe's worth of power.

It had a fraction of Gohan's power, plus a fraction of the ki of the people of Earth and Namek. Plus a token few others in the Afterlife. I'm tired of having to explain this over and over again, but the Genki-Dama only takes genki. Genki, AKA vigor, AKA just one of many parts of ki, according to Toriyama (shouki and yuuki are examples of other parts). If Captain Ginyu's body switch with Goku can be taken as an example of how the whole ki thing breaks down (Goku said Ginyu had his body, but that "his mind and body weren't one"; i.e. no shouki, yuuki, or whatever else besides genki), then genki is about 1/4 of a person's total ki. Whatever the case may be, it's certainly not all of it or even the majority.

Yet, just Gohan's genki, plus a token few others, was already stated to almost be enough to completely wipe out Pure Buu. The Earthlings were basically the tie-breaker.

Also important is that all the Kid Buu stuff is newer information. Likely as Super Buu was introduced he was supposed to be the ultimate bad guy but as the story progressed the story shifted its intention. Toriyama might have never imagined Kid Buu so wrote Super to be the most powerful at the time but once Kid Buu became a thing, all the evidence past that point leans to him.

These bits mostly have less than a week between them. Sometimes, like Goku stating they can't use fusion against Pure Buu like they can against Super Buu because "he's not merged anymore either", they all come within one chapter.

I'd also like to add that while Genki isnt entirely Ki a higher power level does contribute more. The Genki Dama comprising of just Goku's friends is significantly bigger per capita compared to the final one we see comprising of billions of Earthlings and the rest of the universe.

Yet Gohan's genki (plus a token few others), which comprises about 1/4 of his ki going by the only example we have, was almost enough to totally wipe out Pure Buu on its own.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo!"

[Taskmaster]

I'm not going to go back and requote everyone statement, but I read most of what was written.

I'm going to assume, unless someone can point me to a direct statement that says otherwise, that Goku and Buu were dimensions ahead of everyone else, because that's exactly what the story dictates. I'm going to continue to believe that Gohan is pretty tough, but there is still a fairly large gap between him and Goku, with Gohan being inferior (hense Goku's comment about bringing both fighters to 'fight' Buu, in comparison to his comment about Potara 'beating' Buu)
I'm going to believe that Vegeta's speech including everyone - Gohan, Gotenks, himself, Piccolo, because Vegeta already stated he wasn't a match for Buu in his first statement, and like Gohan, is dead too.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Daizenshuu #2's interview that don't require me to twist words.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments Yuskue Watanabe, stating SSJ3 Goku was the benchmark for the movie BOG

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because I have comments from Goten and Vegeta in Dragonball Super that don't require me to assume things that aren't stated.

I'm going to continue to believe Goku is stronger because that's the story Akira Toriyama wrote.

I love this topic, it makes people so passionate!

However, I do believe the Pro Gohan sideis wrong based purely on their theory being based around poor story telling.

In their version of the events, Pure Buu literally serves no purpose and would be interchangeable with Super Buu (or even Fat Buu) with the omission of Goku's line about holding back when he fought Buu originally.


I don't think that was the intention.

Notice absent from my perspective is unsubstantiated theories, crazy power scaling, and inconsistencies.

Just to address a few things here

1. Goku has trouble fighting Fat Buu, to the point that he's sweating bullets after their fight is done.


We see this is a result of maintaining the SSJ3 form, and not on the effort he puts in fighting Buu.
He actually tells Vegeta (and the viewer) that in his fight with Pure Buu he'll go all out (again establishing Goku as not trying when he fought Buu) We later see Vegeta commenting that Goku's power (and Buu) are higher than he imagined

(I'd also like to point out Vegeta knows the power of almost all the Buu forms, including Fat, Wrath, Good, Evil, Super and Pure)

2. Goku states that SS Gotenks will be enough to defeat Fat Buu.

I see this one a lot, but it's rather easily dismissed.
Goku claims he can't beat Buu (lie)
Goku claims he told Buu Gotenks would be stronger than himself (lie)
Goku claims that Fusion would be enough to beat Buu (lie/unsubstantiated)
He even goes on, in the privacy of him and Piccolo talking to tell him he's lying.
Then he goes on and makes 2 more statements to Vegeta and Elder Kaioshin about how he gambled on the boys, but had no definative idea how things would turn out!

We also know it's false because the Daizenshuu says so, and in the Anime as well as the Viz Manga, it clearly states Gotenks is inferior to Fat Buu.

In fact he never proves it, so we can firmly establish this as false.

7. Piccolo, at one point, thinks that base Gotenks can defeat someone stronger than Fat Buu. So again, the idea that he can be weaker than Goku with all this said is ridiculous.

This statement was immediately walked back and proven ridiculous. Piccolo even goes on to tell Gotenks that he didn't believe he would do as well as he did against Buu.

I think people are reading too much into things.

10. Grey Buu, who is inferior to Super Buu, does better than Pure Buu in their respective fights against the same character.

No, not really. I've seen this posted before, and Good Buu who fights Wrath Buu isn't the same as Pure Buu who fights fights Mr. Buu.

They are never said to be the same, for one, and Mr. Buu literally gets beaten to death. Unless you want to make an argument that he's barely stronger than Vegeta because he got a few hits in, again I think you're looking too far into it.

11. Elder Kaioshin states that Ultimate Gohan will be the strongest in the universe. While he's in the Afterlife, with Goku.

I think he said Under the Heaven, aka the living world where Goku was no longer residing.


13. When Buutenks reverts to Buuccolo, Goku states that Gohan can defeat him. Not himself.
'Gohan can beat you on his own' is a meaningless statement. Goku was also said to be the only one able to fight Pure Buu, who is stronger than his previous forms. This quote doesn't provide us with anything new.

[h0kuten]

Wow... how does anybody have the time to type all that.

#2longdidn'tread!

[Taskmaster]

Wow... how does anybody have the time to type all that.

#2longdidn'tread!

And I'm on my phone. Crazy right?

I should probably charge my computer if I want to continue this.

Anyhow, before people over analyze anything else about the final battle, I will point out that Gohan is actually nervous about Pure Buu's death, it's shown in the panel where Piccolo relays the news to everyone.

I initially considered it because of the energy given tired him out, but the sweat is missing from everyone else (the boys, Piccolo, etc)

I don't know why he would be nervous when he could 1 shot Buu /sarcasm.

Seriously though, the final battle makes no sense if we believe that, and believe that the Kaioshin forgot about Gohan being able to easily beat Buu and avoid pretty much having to use the Namek dragonballs, bring back Earth, bring back everyone else and charge a spirit bomb and hope it works.

[Taskmaster]

So, Vegeta talking about Goku beating Pure Buu in Z wasn't about Power. Vegeta calling Goku #1 wasn't about power, and now we have this statement talking about Goku training to become stronger and stating yet again that he's #1 is supposedly not about power?

Guys, there comes a time to admit that your position is weak/faltering/no existent. This is exactly that moment.

The statement is purposely vague it is just there for Vegeta to say Goku is still his superior. Nothing more. You're reading too much into it by thinking it must mean Goku is the absolute strongest. Vegeta does not say in what regard Goku is #1 in.

And like we said it would be ridiculous to assume it must be about strength when he didn't defeat Boo with his own strength. It really isn't a weak argument. I think you're too blinded by the fact that you want Goku to be the strongest. I think you'll find the majority of the people on this forum are of the consensus that Goku is below the kids and Gohan. What does that tell you?

It's not vauge at all. It's pretty cut and dry.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta says Goku's #1 without a doubt and is continuing to train. If it has nothing to do with Goku's power, there'd be no need to mention his training. The whole point is Goku's getting stronger while Vegeta isn't.

But even if people want to assume it has nothing to do with power, Goku's still labeled as the "Strongest Saiyan", which means he's the most powerful Saiyan. Whether it's illogical or not, it's stated.

[Taskmaster]

Vegeta says Goku's #1 without a doubt and is continuing to train. If it has nothing to do with Goku's power, there'd be no need to mention his training. The whole point is Goku's getting stronger while Vegeta isn't.

But even if people want to assume it has nothing to do with power, Goku's still labeled as the "Strongest Saiyan", which means he's the most powerful Saiyan.

You're absolutely correct, the context is very clear. You honestly have to look for wiggle room to NOT take this as literal as it sounds.

[Darkprince410]

Anyhow, before people over analyze anything else about the final battle, I will point out that Gohan is actually nervous about Pure Buu's death, it's shown in the panel where Piccolo relays the news to everyone.

You're presuming he's nervous when that sweat mark has been used for all sorts of different emotions, like confusion or uncertainty. Besides, Even if it was nervousness, that nervousness could just as much be for his father's safety (if Buu's still around, then the genki dama failed and his father's in danger again) or countless other things.

Seriously though, the final battle makes no sense if we believe that, and believe that the Kaioshin forgot about Gohan being able to easily beat Buu and avoid pretty much having to use the Namek dragonballs, bring back Earth, bring back everyone else and charge a spirit bomb and hope it works.

What do you expect him to do? Gohan's dead and very, very likely not been processed yet by Enma (since all that with the Dragon Balls happened within a few minutes of Earth being destroyed). He couldn't give up his life to restore Gohan's until Gohan was given a new body, since until he got one, he'd only be existing as a spirit (see Chaozu and Kuririn during the Freeza Saga)

It's not vauge at all. It's pretty cut and dry.

Yes, it is pretty cut and dry that none of the statements made about Goku being #1 actually involve Goku being the strongest all in all. At least half of Vegeta's statements about Goku being #1 don't even refer to power at all, but other reasons why he considers Goku #1 instead.

Vegeta says Goku's #1 without a doubt and is continuing to train. If it has nothing to do with Goku's power, there'd be no need to mention his training. The whole point is Goku's getting stronger while Vegeta isn't.

Vegeta called Goku #1 because he beat Ma-jin Buu, a feat that he did without his own power being any real contribution. Calling him #1 would be like Kuririn successfully cutting Freeza in half with his ki-enzan or something along those lines, as in both cases it'd be defeating an enemy using an attack that doesn't need the user to be remotely in the same ballpark as the target to do damage.

[Hitiro]

However, I do believe the Pro Gohan sideis wrong based purely on their theory being based around poor story telling.

How can you say it is based around poor story telling? If you take the Pro Goku side you have to ignore the blatant statements by Goku which put Evil(Super) Boo above Goku and below Gohan. You have to find some way of rectifying the dialogue centred around the strength of Gotenks which suggests he is equal, or more than equal match, for Fat Boo as just a SSJ before the RoSaT training. You also have to rectify why Goku would even think of bringing the two to fight Pure Boo if they were weaker than him. Seriously, if you use the Pro Gohan and Gotenks theory you connect everything in the story perfectly. I really can't understand why you would say this.

In their version of the events, Pure Buu literally serves no purpose and would be interchangeable with Super Buu (or even Fat Buu) with the omission of Goku's line about holding back when he fought Buu originally.

No, in this version of events Pure Boo is there to make Goku the viable hero. Because if you exchange Pure Boo for Evil Boo then Goku wouldn't be able to defeat him, he would need Gohan or Gotenks. Akira Toriyama had to find a way to make Goku the hero again to finish the story. The easiest way was to weaken Boo to the point that Goku could manage something. Hence why Goku says "We did it! This way we can manage something!" after they turn Evil Boo into Pure Boo. The only other way to make Goku have enough power to beat Boo without making a new Boo is to power up Goku somehow. Given how the events unfolded it would be a pretty difficult feat to do. Without fusion, which would be the same as not making Goku the hero.

Notice absent from my perspective is unsubstantiated theories, crazy power scaling, and inconsistencies.

Your theory is based on the premise that Goku could have taken Evil Boo in a fight when he states himself that they would lose if they were go outside. He suggests either making Boo weaker or fusing. It would be pointless in him suggesting these things if he believed he could take Evil Boo. So somewhere you would have to power-up Goku. Let's also not forget that SSJ Gotenks was supposed to be enough to fight Fat Boo. None of the characters disagreed. To add further to that Gotenks achieved SSJ3. So we have a SSJ3 tier character gaining a SSJ3 multiplier on top of his already substantial power. Even if you assume Goku was only fighting Fat Boo at half of his strength then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. Because given the multipliers we are given from the guidebooks:

Fat Boo: 400
SSJ Gotenks: 450
SSJ3 Goku: 400
SSJ3 Goku(Max): 800
SSJ3 Gotenks: 450 * 8(as SSJ3 is 8x stronger than SSJ) = 3,600

Goku claims he can't beat Buu (lie)

Yes, this a lie. Though Goku didn't openly say he couldn't beat Boo. He actually said he didn't know because Boo's power was like a lie. But its fine to call this a lie.

Goku claims he told Buu Gotenks would be stronger than himself (lie)

If Gotenks wasn't stronger than what SSJ3 Goku demonstrated in his fight against Boo then Piccolo would have sent the boys into the RoSaT earlier. He also would have said something if they were weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Even if you believe he was weaker than SSJ3 Goku at the time he fought Boo. The minimum Gotenks would need to be is "SSJ2 Majin Vegeta"-level of power for Piccolo not to have said anything. That would place SSJ3 Gotenks 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku as SSJ2 Goku = SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, unless that is a lie too? Even assuming that the fusion was just adding their two battle powers together. Both Goten and Trunks aren't that far way from their parents in terms of power. The guidebooks put Goten on equal pegging with Gohan. If we were to say something like this:

Goten: 1
Trunks: 1
Gohan: 1.1
Vegeta 1.5
Goku: 1.8

Gotenks: 1 + 1 = 2

Base Gotenks > Base Goku. And frankly, I have set Goku and Vegeta very high and the kids very low. If there was more than a 50% difference between Trunks and his father then Trunks would have never been able to hit him or take him by surprise like he did. We have regularly seen a difference of 25% between characters be enough for a fight to be completely one-sided.

Goku claims that Fusion would be enough to beat Buu (lie/unsubstantiated)

This is baseless as with what I pointed out above. If SSJ Gotenks wasn't strong enough to fight Fat Boo then Piccolo would have had them train in the RoSaT. It would be suicide to send them in if they were any weaker than what SSJ3 Goku demonstrated in the fight against Fat Boo. Whether that was Goku's full power or not. It would be literally dooming the world. Goku may be up for doing that if you want to believe that. But Piccolo definitely isn't going to do that.

He even goes on, in the privacy of him and Piccolo talking to tell him he's lying.

What? When does Goku say he was lying about the fusion being enough to beat Boo? Or are you talking about something else?

Then he goes on and makes 2 more statements to Vegeta and Elder Kaioshin about how he gambled on the boys, but had no definative idea how things would turn out!

Yes, it was a gamble sending two children, younger than when Gohan saved the world, to save the world. But I highly doubt he was on about the gamble being their power output in a fusion form. Because that would be frankly ridiculous.

We also know it's false because the Daizenshuu says so, and in the Anime as well as the Viz Manga, it clearly states Gotenks is inferior to Fat Buu.

I don't know where you are getting this from but the Daizenshuu does not say Gotenks is inferior to Fat Boo. And even if it did it could easily be talking about the only version of Gotenks that faced Fat Boo. Which would be his base form.

This statement was immediately walked back and proven ridiculous. Piccolo even goes on to tell Gotenks that he didn't believe he would do as well as he did against Buu.

I think people are reading too much into things.

For Piccolo to think he had a chance in the first place Gotenks had to have increased his power very substantially. Even if it was proven ridiculous that he could win in base form. And it is understandable that Piccolo had a hard time believing that Gotenks waould do so well against Boo. Boo just received a huge power-up. Enough of a power-up to force Piccolo to re-consider using the RoSaT. Before Fat Boo became Evil Boo however Piccolo had no intention of using the RoSaT. So what does that tell you? Clearly SSJ Gotenks was at a level where he could manage Fat Boo. No matter if you place SSJ Gotenks as weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

11. Elder Kaioshin states that Ultimate Gohan will be the strongest in the universe. While he's in the Afterlife, with Goku.

I think he said Under the Heaven, aka the living world where Goku was no longer residing.

No, Rou Kaioshin says that Gohan would definitely be the strongest in the universe. Nothing about "under the heaven's".

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”
Kaioshin and Kibito: “Oooh!”
Goku: “Wh-what?...Ain’t that the kind of ability you hear about fairly often?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Wh-what are you talking about…?! Above their limits! Above! There de~~efinitely isn’t anyone else that incredible! [ ] Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.”

13. When Buutenks reverts to Buuccolo, Goku states that Gohan can defeat him. Not himself.
'Gohan can beat you on his own' is a meaningless statement. Goku was also said to be the only one able to fight Pure Buu, who is stronger than his previous forms. This quote doesn't provide us with anything new.

The claim that Goku is the only one able to fight Pure Boo was made when Gohan and Gotenks were dead. So that is a void argument.

[MisterGuyMan]

1) Vegeta says that there's no doubt that Goku is #1 because he defeated Ma-jin Buu, a feat that he did without his own strength being a factor (since he used the Genki Dama). Given this, Vegeta's line isn't in reference to Goku's strength. Instead, it could simply be that Goku's now #1 because he beat the strongest enemy overall that the Z Senshi ever faced, the one that everyone else had failed to do, Ma-jin Buu (nothing specific form wise, just that he beat their strongest foe).

2) Overkill on Goku's part to want them to fight Pure Buu together?

3) Goku indicates a notable power decrease when Buu reverts down to Pure Buu though, shouting out "We did it!", indicating success, and that they may now be able to manage something. Since the only two goals Goku and Vegeta had at that point were 1) Freeing Gohan and the others and 2) Weakening Buu down to where they could fight him on their own, and #1 had already been fulfilled long before Goku's excited "We did it!", that'd point to it being in reference to #2. While they had weakened Buu when they reverted him to regular Evil Buu, Goku indicates they were getting close to #2, but hadn't succeeded, yet when Pure Buu fully formed, Goku indicated they had succeeded in #2, thus Pure Buu was weaker than Evil Buu.

4) If that's in reference to the "Only you can fight him" line, Gohan and the others are dead, thus they're out of the picture anyway. At the time, Goku and Vegeta are it as far as fighters go, so all Vegeta is saying is that Goku is the only one between the two that can fight him. If it's in regards to his #1 line then, the entire dialogue Vegeta has is about Goku's motivations for fighting and why he's the best fighter, nothing about actual strength.

5) See #1

6) The Daizenshuu takes information from both the manga and anime, so that can simply be correct as far as the anime is concerned. There are other guides that state that Buu lost power when he lost his absorptions (and uses Mr. Buu's cocoon being ripped away as an illustration for this), that Gohan possesses power surpassing Super Saiya-jin 3 (not specifying an individual either, so likely referring to both Goku and Gotenks), etc

7) Because Goku himself was too weak to throw it. That's expressly stated that it wasn't the power of the Genki Dama that was the trouble, simply that Goku was too weak.

Vegeta: “I didn’t pla-plan on this…! Kakarot doesn’t have the sta-stamina to fire that all-important Genki-Dama…!”

Besides, as stated earlier, the Genki Dama draws on a person's genki, not their total ki. According to Toriyama's statement in the Super Exciting Guide, ki is comprised of several elements, with genki being just one of those elements. It is this element, comprising a fraction of a person's total ki, that is donated when it comes to the Genki Dama. So it wasn't that Gohan's ki wasn't enough, just that his genki wasn't enough. Additionally, it wasn't from the universe either. The Genki Dama that killed Buu took genki from the people of Earth, Namek, and those at the check-in station in the Afterlife, not the entire universe.

The statement's condition is merely that after Goku beat Kid Buu, Goku became #1, which is not the same as saying because Goku beat Kid Buu, Goku became #1. Moreover Vegeta said he would train to surpass Goku which doesn't apply if this is some sort of title that was won from Kid Buu.

If we're going to start citing all the other evidence point for point then it should be noted that nearly everything can be explained with an alternate explanation with the exception of a handful. So if you want to dismiss Goku's statement that Gohan and Gotenks can come in to fight Kid Buu as an overkill strategy then I'll dismiss the "We did it" comment as honestly your interpretation. I always read that as since everyone was saved they could now fight Buu without worry. King Kai btw said that Vegeta was talking not just to Earth but all of Space too but of course it looks like we're transitioning to what we can prove arguments so that won't be useful here. I'd just like to add that the Genki Dama comprising of just Goku's friends, the most powerful people, comprises of a significant amount of the total Genki Dama relative to their small numbers. The tiny minority of powerful friends Goku has contribute more per person. That was my point.

Here's the quote from Daizenshuu again:
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031605 ... drama#link
That's from Daizenshuu 2 which is a manga guide (http://web.archive.org/web/201110110152 ... .php?id=02). So out of all the arguments on either side, Vegeta's statement where he says there's "no doubt" Goku is #1 and the Daizenshuu excerpt are the ones the require the least interpretation and those are also more recent. With BoG we also see Goku considering Uub as an opponent that will require all his power and Uub even outperforms Pre-Golden Frieza against base Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

However, I do believe the Pro Gohan sideis wrong based purely on their theory being based around poor story telling.

In their version of the events, Pure Buu literally serves no purpose and would be interchangeable with Super Buu (or even Fat Buu) with the omission of Goku's line about holding back when he fought Buu originally.

He serves the purpose of being a Buu weak enough for Goku to fight but not win against, after it had already long been established that he was no match for Super Buu. Your version of the story is the one that sucks shit, because in your version, Pure Buu was literally created for no reason. Goku could have gone outside and killed Super Buu easily if he was as strong as Gohan or stronger, rather than looking for another person to rip out, and supposedly making Buu stronger.

How does the story work in your Bizarro-World?

Did Piccolo and Goku both conspire to destroy the Earth by keeping Gotenks out of the ROSAT even when he desperately needed it to stand a chance against Fat Buu?

Did Goku conspire to do the same when he declined on ending the Buu arc right there after he ripped Gohan out of Buu's body?

Does Goku have a fucked-up crush on Vegeta and want to fuse with him forever? Would he rather do that and essentially kill himself than just effortlessly beat up Super Buu?

Does Goku have a completely backwards view where he only thinks it's okay to use fusion against a guy weaker than the guy he refused to use fusion against, for fairness?

Did Buu completely forget how to sense ki when he said he would kill Goku without anyone absorbed? Did Goku do the same when he said "We did it!" re: Pure Buu, despite sensing his ki not even two seconds ago?

Did Pure Buu carefully adjust his power level down to the decimal point in the final battle to make it look like Mr. Buu was close in power to him, rather than one-shotting him like he should be able to do if he's stronger than Gohan who's stronger than SUPER Buu who's stronger than Grey Buu? While not affording the same luxury to Vegeta, for no reason?

Did Goku conspire AGAIN to kill his children and the universe in the final battle, where he recommended bringing in his kids to destroy Buu rather than killing himself, wishing himself back in a dead body, and using the resulting increased stamina + help from MB and Vegeta to destroy Pure Buu?

Did Vegeta's personality suddenly do a complete 180 at the last minute, where rather than saying what he actually means he makes up bullshit and avoids stating the obvious to avoid hurting the feelings of someone who isn't even there?

Did the mechanics of the Genki-Dama completely change at the last second with no one mentioning it, so that rather than taking, you know, genki, it took all ki? Did Goku lie as well when he said he was only taking genki?

I don't think that was the intention.

Yet when we get multiple unambiguous statements on whose stronger than who within a few pages, you ignore it.

Notice absent from my perspective is unsubstantiated theories, crazy power scaling, and inconsistencies.

Your perspective is nothing but unsubstantiated theories and inconsistencies. If even half of what you'd said is true, Toriyama is one of the worst writers ever, and the story stops connecting on even the most basic level.

We see this is a result of maintaining the SSJ3 form, and not on the effort he puts in fighting Buu.

Nope. He's not sweating after he goes SS3 against Buutenks, because he didn't do any fighting. He's sweating because Fat Buu isn't that much weaker than him. Which also shows when he clearly uses effort during their fight, e.g. when knocking back a ki blast with both hands.

He actually tells Vegeta (and the viewer) that in his fight with Pure Buu he'll go all out (again establishing Goku as not trying when he fought Buu) We later see Vegeta commenting that Goku's power (and Buu) are higher than he imagined

It's never once established that he was holding back, or that he even has the ability to hold back in that form. Vegeta says that because he's never sensed Goku's power before, he didn't even have a body when Fat Buu vs Goku happened.

(I'd also like to point out Vegeta knows the power of almost all the Buu forms, including Fat, Wrath, Good, Evil, Super and Pure)

Utter BS. He thought that Goku could take Super Buu, only to be reminded that he couldn't, he misjudged Fat Buu's power several times, he did the same thing with Pure Buu, and he never even saw Good or Evil Buu.

I see this one a lot, but it's rather easily dismissed.
Goku claims he can't beat Buu (lie)
Goku claims he told Buu Gotenks would be stronger than himself (lie)

You're bullshitting again. There's no indication that he was lying about Gotenks being stronger than him as a SS, and Piccolo's reaction to Gotenks' strength directly implies he was telling the truth.

Goku claims that Fusion would be enough to beat Buu (lie/unsubstantiated)

Bullshitting again. Goku and Piccolo are both 100% sure that SS Gotenks will be enough to defeat Fat Buu, to the point that they won't even let him use the ROSAT.

He even goes on, in the privacy of him and Piccolo talking to tell him he's lying.

You're the one who's lying, because Goku never says that.

Then he goes on and makes 2 more statements to Vegeta and Elder Kaioshin about how he gambled on the boys, but had no definative idea how things would turn out!

He's referring to the risks of them not learning fusion in time. He stated in no ambiguous terms that Gotenks' actual power would blow Buu's out of the water, which is confirmed when Piccolo has no problem with Gotenks taking on Buu before he transforms.

The Daizenshuu also says that Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, and that Fat Buu is barely weaker than Pure Buu. Funny how you ignore that.

We also know it's false because the Daizenshuu says so, and in the Anime as well as the Viz Manga, it clearly states Gotenks is inferior to Fat Buu.

Bullshitting again. The Viz manga never says that, and the Daizenshuu never specifies what form of Gotenks was inferior to Fat Buu (but indirectly states that SS Gotenks was already waaaaay stronger than SS2 Goku, with the bios for Gotenks and Goten).

The Viz manga DOES say, however, that Gohan is the strongest martial artist on Earth, in a volume where both he and Goku were on Earth. It also says that absorbing the Kaioshin didn't make Buu any weaker, period (it just says "they tamed him"). Funny how you ignore that.

In fact he never proves it, so we can firmly establish this as false.

Except the part where everyone of relevance labels him as stronger than Goku. This is stated about base Gotenks actually, right after Piccolo senses his power, and after he sensed SS3 Goku's and Fat Buu's.

This statement was immediately walked back and proven ridiculous. Piccolo even goes on to tell Gotenks that he didn't believe he would do as well as he did against Buu.

You're bullshitting again. Piccolo was proven wrong, yes, but it's never at any point suggested that he was wrong because he forgot how to sense ki for a few seconds, but rather because Super Buu was that much stronger than he thought. When he says "I didn't believe you'd do this well", he's specifically talking about his thoughts AFTER his initial opinion- that base Gotenks could win- was disproved.

This statement was immediately walked back and proven ridiculous. Piccolo even goes on to tell Gotenks that he didn't believe he would do as well as he did against Buu.

Says the guy who ignores four of the most simple and blatant power statements in the manga, back to back.

No, not really. I've seen this posted before, and Good Buu who fights Wrath Buu isn't the same as Pure Buu who fights fights Mr. Buu.

They are never said to be the same, for one, and Mr. Buu literally gets beaten to death. Unless you want to make an argument that he's barely stronger than Vegeta because he got a few hits in, again I think you're looking too far into it.

Which you say with... absolutely no evidence.

He's much, much stronger than Vegeta, as he actually put up a fight against Pure Buu, while Vegeta did not (Vegeta just surprised him a bit initially, before becoming completely helpless against a laughing Pure Buu). Getting in a few hits, and bouncing back from a few in turn, is actually extremely impressive in this context, since this is a series where being x1.5 stronger than your opponent is enough to render them completely unable to touch you, and being x2 stronger lets you take them down with one blow. So unless you want to argue that Mr. Buu is somehow stronger than Super Buu...

I think he said Under the Heaven, aka the living world where Goku was no longer residing.

No, he said the universe.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.4-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.”

'Gohan can beat you on his own' is a meaningless statement. Goku was also said to be the only one able to fight Pure Buu, who is stronger than his previous forms.

You're bullshitting again. He was directly stated to be weaker than his previous incarnations, not stronger.

I should probably charge my computer if I want to continue this.

Anyhow, before people over analyze anything else about the final battle, I will point out that Gohan is actually nervous about Pure Buu's death, it's shown in the panel where Piccolo relays the news to everyone.

Gohan never met Pure Buu, and wouldn't be able to stop him from blowing up planets or stars anyway.

I don't know why he would be nervous when he could 1 shot Buu /sarcasm.

Hahahaha. You do not want to go there.

"I don't know why'd sweat and panic and decline fighting Buu on numerous occasions if he could 1-shot Buu". What about that?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It was established that Goku was holding-back when Piccolo asks if he could've won had he "gone all-out" in Super Saiyan 3. So yes, Goku was indeed not fighting Fat Boo with all he had. At the end of the day, putting the future of the earth into Gotenks' hands was a gamble. Goku can be confident in the power of fusion and still understand that Gotenks can lose.

[RandomGuy96]

It was established that Goku was holding-back when Piccolo asks if he could've won had he "gone all-out" in Super Saiyan 3. So yes, Goku was indeed not fighting Fat Boo with all he had.

Piccolo was referring to going for the kill, not using more power he was previously suppressing. Piccolo could watch the fight and note that both Fat Buu and Goku were smiling and not aggressively attacking each other, but he couldn't tell if Goku actually had more raw power than he let on.

Vegeta says Goku's #1 without a doubt and is continuing to train. If it has nothing to do with Goku's power, there'd be no need to mention his training. The whole point is Goku's getting stronger while Vegeta isn't.

But even if people want to assume it has nothing to do with power, Goku's still labeled as the "Strongest Saiyan", which means he's the most powerful Saiyan. Whether it's illogical or not, it's stated.

Which, again, isn't a statement of power. Vegeta calling Goku #1 had little do with power and everything to do with his mindset. As he said himself, Goku is #1 because he didn't train to become the best, to defeat his enemies, he trained to better himself, and push his own limits. Which connects to Vegeta still having to surpass someone other than Goku to become the strongest in the universe, and him stating Goku is "#1" because of a battle that Goku actually lost.

Gohan isn't a saiyan, in the same way that a liger is not a lion (assuming he still has that power-up, and they're not using FNF logic). Gotenks, as a fusion, wouldn't even be included.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not much of a difference. If he's not fighting with his all, then he's not displaying all of his power. Goku doesn't need to be suppressing his power.

[RandomGuy96]

Not much of a difference. If he's not fighting with his all, then he's not displaying all of his power. Goku doesn't need to be suppressing his power.

There's a difference between not using full power period and not using it to fight aggressively.

[h0kuten]

Not much of a difference. If he's not fighting with his all, then he's not displaying all of his power. Goku doesn't need to be suppressing his power.

Also Vegeta saw Ssj3 from the other-world and wants to see it again. However the new power out-put far exceeds what was previously established.

This infers suppression.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not much of a difference. If he's not fighting with his all, then he's not displaying all of his power. Goku doesn't need to be suppressing his power.

There's a difference between not using full power period and not using it to fight aggressively.

And yet their power still cannot be fully gauged unless they're actually fighting at their best. Shown countless times, so there's no reason to assume it would be any different here.

[RandomGuy96]

Not much of a difference. If he's not fighting with his all, then he's not displaying all of his power. Goku doesn't need to be suppressing his power.

Also Vegeta saw Ssj3 from the other-world and wants to see it again. However the new power out-put far exceeds what was previously established.

You'd need evidence that he could read everyone's powers from there too. Which doesn't seem to be the case, as Goku has to correct him a few times.

Not much of a difference. If he's not fighting with his all, then he's not displaying all of his power. Goku doesn't need to be suppressing his power.

There's a difference between not using full power period and not using it to fight aggressively.

And yet their power still cannot be fully gauged unless they're actually fighting at their best. Shown countless times, so there's no reason to assume it would be any different here.

What makes you think he wasn't fighting at his best? Again, just because he wasn't punching or blasting as much as he could (similar to Buu) doesn't mean he wasn't using his full power in the punches he did throw. Or when he blocked or moved.