Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[h0kuten]

You need evidence to show he couldn't.

[Darkprince410]

Here's the quote from Daizenshuu again:
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031605 ... drama#link
That's from Daizenshuu 2 which is a manga guide (http://web.archive.org/web/201110110152 ... .php?id=02). So out of all the arguments on either side, Vegeta's statement where he says there's "no doubt" Goku is #1 and the Daizenshuu excerpt are the ones the require the least interpretation and those are also more recent. With BoG we also see Goku considering Uub as an opponent that will require all his power and Uub even outperforms Pre-Golden Freeza against base Goku.

That first statement could, and very likely is, just saying that Buu, in general, was the strongest enemy in the universe. No form of Buu is being specifically mentioned, and given that it's referencing the fact that he tried giving the next generation a chance despite that neither Gohan or Gotenks ever fought Pure Buu, the statement only works if it's referring to Ma-jin Buu as a whole. There'd be no reason to reference the next generation if it was solely Pure Buu that was being talked about.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Because it's stated that he wasn't. Goku never fought all-out, meaning he wasn't fighting at his best. He was playing (Goku says this) around with Fat Boo and nothing more.

[RandomGuy96]

You need evidence to show he couldn't.

That's not how burden of proof works. We have reason to believe that he can't, since he had no body and he misjudges several characters' power. You need to prove that he can.

Because it's stated that he wasn't. Goku never fought all-out, meaning he wasn't fighting at his best. He was playing (Goku says this) around with Fat Boo and nothing more.

Again, that wasn't meant in the context of "you weren't using full power", it was "you weren't going for the kill". Otherwise, he wouldn't have been sweating, and Piccolo wouldn't have been able to tell. He was clearly referring to the fact that both Buu and Goku were smiling, occasionally talking, and only throwing out blows infrequently.

[h0kuten]

You need evidence to show he couldn't.

That's not how burden of proof works. We have reason to believe that he can't, since he had no body and he misjudges several characters' power. You need to prove that he can.

I don't really care.

If you're going to speculate, at least back up your claims.

[Truhan]

Here's the quote from Daizenshuu again:
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031605 ... drama#link
That's from Daizenshuu 2 which is a manga guide (http://web.archive.org/web/201110110152 ... .php?id=02). So out of all the arguments on either side, Vegeta's statement where he says there's "no doubt" Goku is #1 and the Daizenshuu excerpt are the ones the require the least interpretation and those are also more recent. With BoG we also see Goku considering Uub as an opponent that will require all his power and Uub even outperforms Pre-Golden Freeza against base Goku.

That first statement could, and very likely is, just saying that Buu, in general, was the strongest enemy in the universe. No form of Buu is being specifically mentioned, and given that it's referencing the fact that he tried giving the next generation a chance despite that neither Gohan or Gotenks ever fought Pure Buu, the statement only works if it's referring to Ma-jin Buu as a whole. There'd be no reason to reference the next generation if it was solely Pure Buu that was being talked about.

I just came here to comment that statement. It's true on many levels, and in none of them does it settle that Goku is stronger than Gohan. I mean, Goku defeated Kid Buu, the strongest in the universe, when there was no Super Buu around for comparison. Only Fat Buu was, and he was indeed deemed weaker. Gohan didn't power up, Gotenks didn't come into existence, Goku didn't reach his Full Power, and Vegetto was nowhere to be seen. The statement is still true, without telling the whole truth.

[RandomGuy96]

You need evidence to show he couldn't.

That's not how burden of proof works. We have reason to believe that he can't, since he had no body and he misjudges several characters' power. You need to prove that he can.

I don't really care.

If you're going to speculate, at least back up your claims.

I did back up my claims. You haven't.

[h0kuten]

I did back up my claims. You haven't.

You never did.

My claims dictate Vegeta can sense what's happening, it makes no sense he couldn't sense power levels, and actually, it's proven he can sense what's going on.

You need to prove he could sense one thing, but not the other.

[MisterGuyMan]

1. Goku has trouble fighting Fat Buu, to the point that he's sweating bullets after their fight is done.

Goku was using up his limited time on Earth in that fight.

2. Goku states that SS Gotenks will be enough to defeat Fat Buu.
3. Goku states the same thing again, then says the difference in power between Gotenks and Buu will be so severe that exhibiting any caution is just a waste of time. He goes so far as to tell them not to use the ROSAT.
4. Goku states that SS Gotenks will be stronger than him as a SS3.
5. Piccolo, upon sensing SS Gotenks' power, never doubts he can defeat Fat Buu, who was several times stronger than SS2 Goku. He doesn't even throw Gotenks in the ROSAT until after Buu turns into Super Buu.

First Goku admits that he way lying about his power to Piccolo afterward. Also here's a great quote from Toriyama which makes all those other quotes even less reliable:
“What is Majin Buu's power level?
- Giovanni Toso, London, England
T: The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, Majin But himself probably doesn't know the answer.”
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=17921
So yeah people have been underestimating Buu up until he's actually defeated. Morever you're citing what Goku expects Gotenks to be like. He never sees him when he made that statement and that's on top of him just lying about his true power to boot.

6. Gotenks, despite both his parts having sensed SS3 Goku before, states himself to be the strongest in the universe at several points.
7. Piccolo, at one point, thinks that base Gotenks can defeat someone stronger than Fat Buu. So again, the idea that he can be weaker than Goku with all this said is ridiculous.
8. Trunks says the same thing. Well, actually, he's a bit more humble. He says base Gotenks would be even with Majin Buu.
9. Goten says the same thing.
10. Grey Buu, who is inferior to Super Buu, does better than Pure Buu in their respective fights against the same character.
11. Elder Kaioshin states that Ultimate Gohan will be the strongest in the universe. While he's in the Afterlife, with Goku.

This is all explainable with Buu's "unfathomable" power as well. Plus Goku is dead so neither Gotenks nor Old Kai (who never even saw SS3 Goku anyway) wouldn't include him in the universe.

13. When Buutenks reverts to Buuccolo, Goku states that Gohan can defeat him. Not himself.

Gohan can beat Super Buu... which isn't the same as saying Goku can't. By that logic Goku thinking they would teleport both Gohan and Gotenks to fight would be similar evidence.

14. When Goku and Vegeta first enter Super Buu's body, Goku warns Vegeta not to destroy the Potara earrings, since there's no guarantee they can rescue everyone and revert Buuhan to "the very first Buu of all". Given he says they're "almost there" when they get him down to Super Buu, and then calls the fat Buu "the very first one of all" when they see his pod, the intention here is pretty obvious. Goku (+Vegeta) can take Fat Buu, but not Super Buu. Otherwise, ripping out Gohan and the others wouldn't be "we're almost there", it would be "we did it!".
15. After he states "we're almost there", Goku says that they still absolutely cannot defeat Buu. Super Buu, that is. It's one of the clearest and most unambiguous statements in the manga. "Even though he's gotten a lot weaker, we're still no match for his strength! If we go out there, we'll definitely be done-in!". How this thread even exists with that statement being there (and being vital to the story, rather than a throwaway), I have no idea.
16. Goku states that the only way for them to defeat Super Buu without weakening him anymore is to use fusion.
17. When Super Buu confronts Goku and Vegeta inside his own body, he states that they're weak, and that he's going to kill them. This is despite him seeing and sensing SS3 Goku outside as Buutenks like ten minutes ago.
18. As Super Buu is confronting them, Goku is sweating bullets, has a clear look of worry, and yells at Vegeta for not fusing with him, which he just said was their only hope against Buu.
--The above four bits were all within a few pages of each other in the volume. How much clearer could Toriyama have possibly been?
19. Vegeta rips out Mr. Buu for the explicit purpose of making Super Buu weaker, so Goku can handle him. Goku never tries to stop him or says "actually, I can take this Buu...". Because he can't, and he needs that pod ripped out.

This entire sequence takes place while Goku and Vegeta are inside Buu and tiny. Goku says they'll be destroyed if they fight Buu "like this..." Saying Fusion can still beat Buu doesn't change the fact that that conditional is still vague. There's no reason for Goku to believe he would have regained his original size.

20. When Goku sees Buu turn into Pure Buu, he states: "We did it! Now we might finally be able to manage something!". He also expresses clear relief in contrast to his panic earlier when confronted with the thought of facing Super Buu or Buff Buu, who he was sensing at the time.
21. When offered the opportunity to fuse against Pure Buu, Goku rejects it, despite begging Vegeta to do the same against Super Buu ten minutes ago. Why? Because, "Buu ain't merged anymore either". In other words, them fighting Super Buu is comparable to Pure Buu fighting Vegetto. This should count as yet another outright statement that Buu is weaker now.

22. When Goku loses to Pure Buu, his first thought is to bring Gohan and Gotenks in to kill Buu. Note also how he doesn't say "bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us", despite Goku himself being equal to Pure Buu. He intends the kids to destroy Buu
23. Furthermore, neither Vegeta nor Goku ever doubt this would work. Goku asks him why they shouldn't just do that, and Vegeta twice responds with "I want to make a point about responsibility to the Earthlings". Goku also doesn't just ask for the dragon to restore his and Vegeta's power, even though just the two of them have a pretty fool-proof method for killing Buu. SS3 Goku can blow him apart, as he did three times in their fight, and then SS2 Vegeta can completely wipe out the pieces, as friggin' Piccolo was stated to be able to do. Adding in Mr. Buu, who can put up a fight against Pure Buu by himself, just makes this more one-sided in the good guys' favor, if all they want to do is kill Buu in the simplest way possible.
24. Finally, the whole Gohan genki point I made elsewhere.

Yeah he intends the kids (plural) to beat Kid Buu. Not just one. Both. Moreover Vegeta and King Kai decide that the Genki Dama is a good plan once Vegeta makes it clear that he's going to ask everyone to give as much as they can as opposed to relying on the normal amount of energy from a standard Genki Dama. As I keep mentioning guaging Buu's power is inherently difficult according to Toriyama and he's been continually underestimated this entire time. Piccolo's attempt to disintegrate Buu's destroyed pieces with Gotenks failed if you remember. Then we have Goku's statement where everyone would have died without Mr. Buu and Satan. So if Gohan and Gotenks can beat Kid Buu solo, then that contradicts with Goku's statement which requires both Satan and Mr. Buu.

You're making things up. He never says he wants them both to attack him at the same time. If that's what he meant, there's no reason he wouldn't also include himself and Mr. Buu in the statement, since he's supposedly stronger than they are. Even if he did say that, which he didn't, it's still not proof of anything, since he can just want them to overkill Pure Buu. More likely he just wanted insurance in case a freak accident happened and one of them got absorbed.

Goku guesses that Vegeta's plan was to resurrect everyone so that Gohan and Gotenks would fight Buu. What exactly is the issue here?

You're making things up. Again. When he reverts to Pure Buu, Goku stops panicking and states "We did it! Now we can finally manage something!". That's an outright statement that he became weaker, especially considering earlier he said: "We're almost there! See! His ki dropped a lot!". And "Wait! Don't throw away the Potara! There's no guarantee that we can rescue the others and revert this Buu to a weak enough form/the very first Buu of all!".

No... that doesn't mention power at all. Goku's just glad the plan worked.

One, Super is the anime, coming right off of Kai. It's irrelevant. Two, Vegeta says later that he needs to surpass Goku, the strongest saiyan, and "everyone else" before he can become the strongest. So Goku is not the strongest in the universe. Three, Vegeta was obviously not referring to combat ability, since he says that Goku was #1 because he killed Majin Buu. Even though he lost to Buu, even with Vegeta's help; he needed Mr. Buu's help and everyone else's energy to actually kill Buu.

Vegeta wants to surpass Goku, the strongest Saiyan. Goku is #1 in the universe. Vegeta wants to surpass everyone else. Those statements don't contradict.

No it doesn't. It says Majin Buu, in general, is the strongest in the universe, without specifying a form.

Here's the quote:
Defeat Buu!
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.
The phrase "strongest in the universe" factually only modies one noun. That noun is Buu, specifically the one that was defeated by Goku. So, no, this phrase is not about "Buu in general" at all. It's specifically the Buu that Goku defeated. Goku did not defeat Buu in general since Fat Buu was still hanging around actually helping fight off Kid Buu.

The Daizenshuu also says:
-Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu (so, obviously, Gohan is much much stronger than either).
-Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 (a blanket statement, so referring to more than one).
-Base Goten and Trunks are equally as strong as base Gohan individually, and many times stronger as Gotenks (meaning it's literally impossible for them to NOT be insanely stronger than Goku, as Gotenks; especially in the same form).

[/quote]
Can you list those quotes please?

[h0kuten]

Daizenshuu states Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks until Gotenks hits the RoSaT.

[MisterGuyMan]

That first statement could, and very likely is, just saying that Buu, in general, was the strongest enemy in the universe. No form of Buu is being specifically mentioned, and given that it's referencing the fact that he tried giving the next generation a chance despite that neither Gohan or Gotenks ever fought Pure Buu, the statement only works if it's referring to Ma-jin Buu as a whole. There'd be no reason to reference the next generation if it was solely Pure Buu that was being talked about.

The various Buu monikers are fan made. The statement itself can mention various Buus from various times but the phrase "strongest in the universe" only modifies one noun in that sentence. "Goku defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe" is the phrase we're looking at here. Goku defeated Buu is a clear statement. This isn't Super Buu. This isn't Buuhan. There's only Buu that meets that criteria. That's the noun that is referred to as "the strongest in the universe."

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Again, that wasn't meant in the context of "you weren't using full power", it was "you weren't going for the kill". Otherwise, he wouldn't have been sweating, and Piccolo wouldn't have been able to tell. He was clearly referring to the fact that both Buu and Goku were smiling, occasionally talking, and only throwing out blows infrequently.

This still doesn't change anything. If he's not fighting all-out in Super Saiyan 3, then he's not showing all of his power. If he's not trying to finish Boo, then they'd have no way of knowing what he could really do. That's why Vegeta had to see Goku fight Kid Boo all-out before realizing he could wipe him out if he gained enough Chi. Yes, Piccolo was clearly referring to the fact that Goku was only playing around with Boo. The only time he was said to be going all-out was against Kid Boo.

Goku was sweating well after the fight was done, with Piccolo wondering if Super Saiyan 3 is really that draining. That's more to do with Super Saiyan 3 than anything Fat Boo did.

[Darkprince410]

Here's the quote:
Defeat Buu!
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.
The phrase "strongest in the universe" factually only modies one noun. That noun is Buu, specifically the one that was defeated by Goku. So, no, this phrase is not about "Buu in general" at all. It's specifically the Buu that Goku defeated. Goku did not defeat Buu in general since Fat Buu was still hanging around actually helping fight off Kid Buu.

However, the same sentence refers to Goku having initially tried for the next generation to handle Buu, but in the end it was he was the one that did it. Gohan and Gotenks never fought Pure Buu, so how could they have tried to resolve the problem that Goku eventually resolved if it's just in reference to Pure Buu? Likewise, from Pure Evil Buu onward, it's still technically the same Buu they're fighting, just different forms of him. The way you're describing it would be like trying to say that the Cell #16 beat up for awhile was a totally different being than the Cell Gohan destroyed.

[h0kuten]

The only reason Piccolo threw Gotenks into the RoSaT early is because Super Boo can sense Ki. Also, Fat Boo is not several times stronger than any Ssj2. His feats only need a minimum gap of 25-30% to replicate, as we seen with Goku vs the Ginyu Force or Vegeta SsjG2 vs Semi-Perfect Cell. Teen Gohan is roughly 2.5x Fat Boo's full power, which only results in Boo being 40-50% than the Ssj2s. Stop over-estimating the fatty.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku was using up his limited time on Earth in that fight.

Which has what to do with sweat and facial expressions?

First Goku admits that he way lying about his power to Piccolo afterward. Also here's a great quote from Toriyama which makes all those other quotes even less reliable:
“What is Majin Buu's power level?
- Giovanni Toso, London, England
T: The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, Majin But himself probably doesn't know the answer.”
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17921
So yeah people have been underestimating Buu up until he's actually defeated. Morever you're citing what Goku expects Gotenks to be like. He never sees him when he made that statement and that's on top of him just lying about his true power to boot.

It's not even a matter of whether or not he underestimated Majin Buu. All that really matters for this conversation is whether or not SS Gotenks is stronger than SS2 Goku, because by extension SS3 Gotenks would obviously be a lot stronger than SS3 Goku. The answer to this is "yes", because both Piccolo and Goku are 100% confident he will be enough to kill someone SS2 Goku was not strong enough to beat. It's really unambiguous.

Your stance also contradicts basic story-telling logic: statements are true unless contradicted, or else there's no point for the statement to exist.

This is all explainable with Buu's "unfathomable" power as well. Plus Goku is dead so neither Gotenks nor Old Kai (who never even saw SS3 Goku anyway) wouldn't include him in the universe.

The Afterlife is part of the universe, because "universe" means everything. None of that is at all explained by Buu being supposedly unable to gauge his own power (which is proven wrong at several points anyway). It seems like you're unable to counter the truly obscene amount of evidence against you, so you're just throwing out a general quote that has little do with anything and has been contradicted before so you can say: "See! This automatically counters every bit of evidence brought up!".

This entire sequence takes place while Goku and Vegeta are inside Buu and tiny. Goku says they'll be destroyed if they fight Buu "like this..." Saying Fusion can still beat Buu doesn't change the fact that that conditional is still vague. There's no reason for Goku to believe he would have regained his original size.

1. Goku has to be told by Buu that being tiny decreases his power. He's surprised to learn that.

2. Goku obviously wasn't expecting to stay tiny forever, and planned to fight Buu outside his body.

3. Goku was still scared of Buu when they were both tiny.

I am sick and tired of this "small as fleas" excuse. It's been debunked dozens of times already.

Yeah he intends the kids (plural) to beat Kid Buu. Not just one. Both.

This is utterly meaningless. He never says he intends for them to fight Buu at the same time, and even if he did, it wouldn't tell us anything (other than that they're WAY stronger than Goku).

Moreover Vegeta and King Kai decide that the Genki Dama is a good plan once Vegeta makes it clear that he's going to ask everyone to give as much as they can as opposed to relying on the normal amount of energy from a standard Genki Dama.

Vegeta never says it's a good plan because it's the best to beat Buu, he specifically says he wants to do it to make a point. He rejects several other much simpler solutions (from bringing Gohan to using Vegetto to just restoring Goku's energy). Kaio also never says it's a good plan, he's just flattered by Vegeta wanting to use it.

Heck, Vegeta says himself that he's not even sure it'll work. Vegetto, Gohan, Gotenks, Gogeta, dead!Goku, etc. are all sure things. The Genki-Dama is presented as the worst possible plan.

As I keep mentioning guaging Buu's power is inherently difficult according to Toriyama and he's been continually underestimated this entire time.

No, he really hasn't. He's been accurately estimated several times by several characters. You're just bringing up that quote to avoid having to actually address the story's own logic.

Piccolo's attempt to disintegrate Buu's destroyed pieces with Gotenks failed if you remember.

Actually read the quote before talking about it. He says it failed because they burned the pieces, rather than completely wiping them out. He says that they could have wiped them out.

Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P5.7
Context: after Boo regenerates from being hit with the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack
Piccolo: “Shi…Shit…damn it! Rather than burn [the pieces of Boo’s body], we should have completely wiped them out with our ki…!”

Goku guesses that Vegeta's plan was to resurrect everyone so that Gohan and Gotenks would fight Buu. What exactly is the issue here?

There's no evidence he intends for them to fight at the same time. If either one of them can kill him easily, there's still no reason not to bring both of them for insurance. The idea that he was talking about a team effort against Buu is debunked by the fact that he makes no mention of himself participating, even though he could have his power restored, and is supposedly stronger than either Gohan or Gotenks.

No... that doesn't mention power at all. Goku's just glad the plan worked.

You're being willingly ignorant. He says: "Wait! You don't know that we won't still have to fuse, because there's no guarantee we can rescue Gohan and the others and revert this Buu to the very first one of all!". Here he establishes that the goal is to turn Super Buu back into Fat Buu. He says that, if they can't do that, they'll need to fuse. Later he says: "We're almost there! See, his ki just dropped a lot!" then "There's only one way we can win against this Buu [fusion]". He basically says the same thing: the goal is to make Super Buu weaker; they can't defeat him otherwise, unless they fuse. They're "almost there" because he got way weaker, as stated, but he's not weak enough yet.

Then he calls the fat Buu "the very first one of all" when he sees him in a pod later, offering final confirmation of his intention to make Buu into that form, because it's the only one he can beat. Finally, they leave Buu's body and see him transform into Buff Buu. They panic. Then he transforms into Pure Buu. Then and only then does Goku say "We did it!". He also says "Now we can finally manage something!".

It's extremely clear and simple. He states what his plan is three separate times.

Vegeta wants to surpass Goku, the strongest Saiyan. Goku is #1 in the universe. Vegeta wants to surpass everyone else. Those statements don't contradict.

They're also meaningless, because Goku and Vegeta are the only saiyans (well... there's Tarble), and Vegeta called Goku #1 for reasons unrelated to power (because he defeated Pure Buu, which he didn't do with his own power).

Here's the quote:
Defeat Buu!
Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin.
The phrase "strongest in the universe" factually only modies one noun. That noun is Buu, specifically the one that was defeated by Goku. So, no, this phrase is not about "Buu in general" at all. It's specifically the Buu that Goku defeated. Goku did not defeat Buu in general since Fat Buu was still hanging around actually helping fight off Kid Buu.

No, it refers to Buu in general, because it says that Goku gave the next generation a chance against "Buu, the strongest in the universe". The "next generation" never got the chance to fight Pure Buu. Of course, even if this statement said what you thought it said- and it doesn't- it still wouldn't matter, because one ambiguous line in a guidebook doesn't override dozens of unambiguous statements in the manga. Especially when the entire story is dependent on the idea that Goku can't defeat Super Buu.

Can you list those quotes please?

Majin Buu:
He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened.

Goten:
By virtue of being Goku's son, he possesses a battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan.

"Gohan has fantastic power surpassing even Super Saiyan 3".

The only reason Piccolo threw Gotenks into the RoSaT early is because Super Boo can sense Ki. Also, Fat Boo is not several times stronger than any Ssj2. His feats only need a minimum gap of 25-30% to replicate, as we seen with Goku vs the Ginyu Force or Vegeta SsjG2 vs Semi-Perfect Cell. Teen Gohan is roughly 2.5x Fat Boo's full power, which only results in Boo being 40-50% than the Ssj2s. Stop over-estimating the fatty.

Ah, so we're flat-out making stuff up again? Where exactly do you get him being x2.5 Gohan's power? Because that was the amount of power needed to kick-start his revival? What exactly tells you that's his max? Where do you get Vegeta being 25% stronger than Semi-Cell?

Again, that wasn't meant in the context of "you weren't using full power", it was "you weren't going for the kill". Otherwise, he wouldn't have been sweating, and Piccolo wouldn't have been able to tell. He was clearly referring to the fact that both Buu and Goku were smiling, occasionally talking, and only throwing out blows infrequently.

This still doesn't change anything. If he's not fighting all-out in Super Saiyan 3, then he's not showing all of his power. If he's not trying to finish Boo, then they'd have no way of knowing what he could really do. That's why Vegeta had to see Goku fight Kid Boo all-out before realizing he could wipe him out if he gained enough Chi. Yes, Piccolo was clearly referring to the fact that Goku was only playing around with Boo. The only time he was said to be going all-out was against Kid Boo.

Goku was sweating well after the fight was done, with Piccolo wondering if Super Saiyan 3 is really that draining. That's more to do with Super Saiyan 3 than anything Fat Boo did.

They know what he can really do, because they can sense his ki. It doesn't matter if he fights aggressively, because they have a sixth sense that lets them tell how strong he is. Vegeta didn't need to see Goku do that, he was under the impression that he could wipe him out from the beginning. He was sweating because Fat Buu was making him use effort, as clearly seen in the fight, not because going SS3 leaves him sweating period. He's only ever sweated after he went SS3 and had a long fight.

[h0kuten]

Nothing infers there is a reason Fat Boo needs to be more than 2.5x Teen Gohan.

Unlike you, I've got an on screen panel to back up my claims. Whereas your logic is grounded by speculation.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku and Vegeta are the only Saiyans? Lol.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku and Vegeta are the only Saiyans?

Is a liger a lion?

Nothing infers there is a reason Fat Boo needs to be more than 2.5x Teen Gohan.

Unlike you, I've got an on screen panel to back up my claims. Whereas your logic is grounded by speculation.

Except his whole fight with Goku, and laughing at the idea that SS2 Vegeta's strongest attack could do more than sting a tiny bit.

No, you've still got nothing. I'm still waiting on your evidence.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan was always included anytime Vegeta was focused on whoever was the strongest of them all. Now all of a sudden he's not going to include him because he's a hybrid?

[h0kuten]

An on screen panel showing how Gohan compares to Boo over-rides your fan speculation.