Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Darkprince410]

Unlike you, I've got an on screen panel to back up my claims. Whereas your logic is grounded by speculation.

All that proves is that's how much power was needed to revive Buu, not that it's the full extent of his power. If a car is in need of a jump start because the battery is dead, do you need to supply the full amount of electricity that the battery would have produced? No. You just need enough electricity to get the car started. Without any statement saying otherwise, roughly 2.5x Ssj2 Gohan's battle power worth of ki is simply what is needed to jump start him. No one at any point says that the energy is needed to completely restore him or anything like that, simply revive him.

[h0kuten]

Unlike you, I've got an on screen panel to back up my claims. Whereas your logic is grounded by speculation.

All that proves is that's how much power was needed to revive Buu, not that it's the full extent of his power. If a car is in need of a jump start because the battery is dead, do you need to supply the full amount of electricity that the battery would have produced? No. You just need enough electricity to get the car started. Without any statement saying otherwise, roughly 2.5x Ssj2 Gohan's battle power worth of ki is simply what is needed to jump start him. No one at any point says that the energy is needed to completely restore him or anything like that, simply revive him.

Nothing contradicts the power scaling to revive Majin Boo. Only fan speculation.

[Kamiccolo9]

Unlike you, I've got an on screen panel to back up my claims. Whereas your logic is grounded by speculation.

All that proves is that's how much power was needed to revive Buu, not that it's the full extent of his power. If a car is in need of a jump start because the battery is dead, do you need to supply the full amount of electricity that the battery would have produced? No. You just need enough electricity to get the car started. Without any statement saying otherwise, roughly 2.5x Ssj2 Gohan's battle power worth of ki is simply what is needed to jump start him. No one at any point says that the energy is needed to completely restore him or anything like that, simply revive him.

Nothing contradicts the power scaling to revive Majin Boo. Only fan speculation.

Nothing confirms it, either.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan was always included anytime Vegeta was focused on whoever was the strongest of them all. Now all of a sudden he's not going to include him because he's a hybrid?

It's not even a question of whether or not he excluded him. We know he did, because Gohan is not a saiyan, in the same way that a lion is not a liger.

Unlike you, I've got an on screen panel to back up my claims. Whereas your logic is grounded by speculation.

All that proves is that's how much power was needed to revive Buu, not that it's the full extent of his power. If a car is in need of a jump start because the battery is dead, do you need to supply the full amount of electricity that the battery would have produced? No. You just need enough electricity to get the car started. Without any statement saying otherwise, roughly 2.5x Ssj2 Gohan's battle power worth of ki is simply what is needed to jump start him. No one at any point says that the energy is needed to completely restore him or anything like that, simply revive him.

Nothing contradicts the power scaling to revive Majin Boo. Only fan speculation.

There's nothing to contradict. This "power scaling" doesn't exist. It's just stated to be what's needed to jump start him. You're the one who made up the crap about it being representative of his full power somehow.

[h0kuten]

The author is trying to tell a story by showing us how strong this new threat is through artwork. Panels are like feats and over-ride fan speculation. Until somebody brings something to the table that explicitly contradicts the power scaling of Fat Boo being 2.5x Teen Gohan, as the artwork shows us, than I'm afraid it's true until contradicted.

[Kamiccolo9]

The author is trying to tell a story by showing us how strong this new threat is through artwork. Panels are like feats and over-ride fan speculation. Until somebody brings something to the table that explicitly contradicts the power scaling of Fat Boo being 2.5x Teen Gohan, as the artwork shows us, than I'm afraid it's true until contradicted.

That's......not how debate works. You don't get to dictate the terms of the discussion with fanmade rules.

[h0kuten]

The author is trying to tell a story by showing us how strong this new threat is through artwork. Panels are like feats and over-ride fan speculation. Until somebody brings something to the table that explicitly contradicts the power scaling of Fat Boo being 2.5x Teen Gohan, as the artwork shows us, than I'm afraid it's true until contradicted.

That's......not how debate works. You don't get to dictate the terms of the discussion with fanmade rules.

Toriyama is showing us how strong Fat Boo is and what it takes to revive and restore his full power. Nothing contradicts it. There shouldn't be a problem here.

[Kamiccolo9]

The author is trying to tell a story by showing us how strong this new threat is through artwork. Panels are like feats and over-ride fan speculation. Until somebody brings something to the table that explicitly contradicts the power scaling of Fat Boo being 2.5x Teen Gohan, as the artwork shows us, than I'm afraid it's true until contradicted.

That's......not how debate works. You don't get to dictate the terms of the discussion with fanmade rules.

Toriyama is showing us how strong Fat Boo is and what it takes to revive and restore his full power. Nothing contradicts it. There shouldn't be a problem here.

Almost right. You can't confirm the marked out part. That's where you are speculating. See DarkPrince's car battery analogy above.

[h0kuten]

Toriyama is showing us how strong Fat Boo is and what it takes to revive and restore his full power. Nothing contradicts it. There shouldn't be a problem here.
Almost right. You can't confirm the marked out part. That's where you are speculating. See DarkPrince's car battery analogy above.

The problem here is nothing contradicts it. So it's true until contradicted.

[Kamiccolo9]

Toriyama is showing us how strong Fat Boo is and what it takes to revive and restore his full power. Nothing contradicts it. There shouldn't be a problem here.
Almost right. You can't confirm the marked out part. That's where you are speculating. See DarkPrince's car battery analogy above.

The problem here is nothing contradicts it. So it's true until contradicted.

Nothing contradicts Piccolo subconsciously feeding off the telepathic energies of everyone around him with his antenna either. I guess that makes Piccolo a psychic vampire.

You have nothing supporting your argument. That's your problem. You can't just assert things and treat them as fact because they aren't contradicted. You have to prove them.

Work on that, then we'll talk.

[Darkprince410]

The author is trying to tell a story by showing us how strong this new threat is through artwork. Panels are like feats and over-ride fan speculation. Until somebody brings something to the table that explicitly contradicts the power scaling of Fat Boo being 2.5x Teen Gohan, as the artwork shows us, than I'm afraid it's true until contradicted.

It's just as much fan speculation that it's there to show that Fat Buu is just a little over 2x the strength of Ssj2 Gohan. Nothing states it's completely restoring his ki, nothing hints that it's completely restoring his ki, so every bit of "evidence" you have showing that Fat Buu is just 2.5x Gohan's power is just as much evidence showing that it took 2.5x Gohan's strength to jump start him and isn't indicative of his actual strength.

You say that nothing contradicting that the ki is restoring him to full power, thus it must be true. By that logic, since there's nothing contradicting that it's just jump starting his system and it isn't an actual indication of how strong he is, that must also be true. Simply saying nothing contradicts it isn't enough. You need facts actively supporting it.

[h0kuten]

Toriyama is showing us how strong Fat Boo is and what it takes to revive and restore his full power. Nothing contradicts it. There shouldn't be a problem here.
Almost right. You can't confirm the marked out part. That's where you are speculating. See DarkPrince's car battery analogy above.

The problem here is nothing contradicts it. So it's true until contradicted.

Nothing contradicts Piccolo subconsciously feeding off the telepathic energies of everyone around him with his antenna either. I guess that makes Piccolo a psychic vampire.

You have nothing supporting your argument. That's your problem. You can't just assert things and treat them as fact because they aren't contradicted. You have to prove them.

Work on that, then we'll talk.

An artist's art panel that explicitly shows a strength related reference versus a fan asking for more evidence? I'd rather the art-work over that any day. Regardless, the Ginyu vs Goku fight is estimated at no more than a 50% gap from an in-universe character himself. All of the feats Fat Boo participates in make much more sense if we follow his power being 2.5x Teen Gohan than if we didn't.

Point proven?

[Kamiccolo9]

An artist's art panel that explicitly shows a strength related reference versus a fan asking for more evidence? I'd rather the art-work over that any day. Regardless, the Ginyu vs Goku fight is estimated at no more than a 50% gap from an in-universe character himself. All of the feats Fat Boo participates in make much more sense if we follow his power being 2.5x Teen Gohan than if we didn't.

Point proven?

I don't think you know the difference between "prove" and "speculate." Stop treating your assumptions as fact, and try paying attention to the dozen people who have been arguing with you since you joined up. You might learn something. If nothing else, it'll be less toxic to the community.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's not even a question of whether or not he excluded him. We know he did, because Gohan is not a saiyan, in the same way that a lion is not a liger.

Gohan is a Saiyan. Unless it's specifically noted that he's excluding hybrids or you have some other quote saying otherwise, then he's apart of the statement.

[Taskmaster]

It's not even a question of whether or not he excluded him. We know he did, because Gohan is not a saiyan, in the same way that a lion is not a liger.

Gohan is a Saiyan. Unless it's specifically noted that he's excluding hybrids or you have some other quote saying otherwise, then he's apart of the statement.

Guess Gohan, Goten and Trunks can't be used for the SSG ritual by his logic.

[RandomGuy96]

It's not even a question of whether or not he excluded him. We know he did, because Gohan is not a saiyan, in the same way that a lion is not a liger.

Gohan is a Saiyan.

No, he's a half-saiyan, half-human. Again, is a liger a lion?

[Darkprince410]

An artist's art panel that explicitly shows a strength related reference versus a fan asking for more evidence? I'd rather the art-work over that any day. Regardless, the Ginyu vs Goku fight is estimated at no more than a 50% gap from an in-universe character himself. All of the feats Fat Boo participates in make much more sense if we follow his power being 2.5x Teen Gohan than if we didn't.

Point proven?

You're making an assumption though that the gauge next to Buu's cocoon was a gauge of Buu's total ki level, when nothing actually says it is. Besides, if it was actually restoring Buu's strength by pumping him with the ki of Goku and Gohan, why don't they sense their ki within him? Since, according to you, nearly half of the ki in Buu should be Gohan's and the rest Goku's, they should be able to sense themselves from it, like they could when it came to Cell.

[h0kuten]

An artist's art panel that explicitly shows a strength related reference versus a fan asking for more evidence? I'd rather the art-work over that any day. Regardless, the Ginyu vs Goku fight is estimated at no more than a 50% gap from an in-universe character himself. All of the feats Fat Boo participates in make much more sense if we follow his power being 2.5x Teen Gohan than if we didn't.

Point proven?

I don't think you know the difference between "prove" and "speculate." Stop treating your assumptions as fact, and try paying attention to the dozen people who have been arguing with you since you joined up. You might learn something. If nothing else, it'll be less toxic to the community.

I'm sticking up for what I believe in, it's as simple as that, and yes, I read what they say but nothing is principal; therefore I don't have to believe it if I feel it isn't a credible argument.

I brought an artist's panel to the freakin' argument and you're asking for confirmation? How does an artists panel not confirm anything? How does it not over-ride speculation such as, 'Well it might just be his base power', when nothing contradicts the fricken' thing? Explain that to me.

Surely if what the original Manga Artists explicitly drew out for us as a strength related picture is not accurate, he surely would have provided a statement or another form of art-work that contradicts it. I'm asking you to provide that statement or art panel that contradicts Majin Boo being 2.5x Teen Gohan. Not speculating if may or may not have been true in the first place.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No, he's a half-saiyan, half-human. Again, is a liger a lion?

Doesn't matter. Throughout the series Vegeta referred to them all as Saiyans. If it's about power, then Gohan is apart of the comparison. Anytime Vegeta is focused on the strongest, he considers everyone. Goku is the strongest according to Vegeta, so he's taking everyone into consideration. Unless you can prove otherwise, which you can't.

Goku being #1 and "still training" is not about power. Alright, cool. Goku being the "Strongest Saiyan" between these two only defeats the entire point of the statement, rendering it useless as fuck. It'd be more simple just saying "Kakarot, I've accepted that you're stronger than me" rather than give him a meaningless title where the only other Saiyans are somehow not included.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because the panel isn't saying what you are saying that it's saying. It just shows a meter. It doesn't say what the meter is.

If you want to use your made-up interpretations of what must have been going on in Toriyama's head when he drew that, be my guest. But don't act like your interpretation is some fact that only you can understand and the rest of us are obviously too stupid to comprehend. Quite frankly, it's insulting.

I'm done here. I've made my point. The fact that you seem determined to ignore it isn't my problem.