Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

BoZ Goku and Piccolo were only 3-4x weaker than Raditz and were completely helpless. If they got someone around half of their strength and 7x weaker than Raditz, do you really think he'd be of any aid?

[Sayo-chan]

BoZ Goku and Piccolo were only 3-4x weaker than Raditz and were completely helpless. If they got someone around half of their strength and 7x weaker than Raditz, do you really think he'd be of any aid?

The same way #16 was of aid against Cell when he bear hugged him.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The same way #16 was of aid against Cell when he bear hugged him.

So Krillin would get Freeza in a bear hug, and Freeza would destroy Krillin with one blast the same way Cell destroyed #16 in one blast. That's considered help?

[ZombieVito]

It's not stated in the manga. For me Piccolo has found out who Kaioshin was. Piccolo has not entered the tournament to give up because it was not the stronger-it is obvious that there was something else restricting him in combat.

So you think Vegeta is less than half Freeza's power?

I don't know how 75,000 can be useful against someone with 530,000.

Goku and Freeza fought evenly until Freeza began to have their power reduced.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess.

Nothing contradicts Vegeta's official BP. Saying their "fight" was even is just ridiculous.
Please show me the rule that says that.
Freeza couldn't even hurt Goku in any significant way at all. The fight was not even.

BoZ Goku and Piccolo were only 3-4x weaker than Raditz and were completely helpless. If they got someone around half of their strength and 7x weaker than Raditz, do you really think he'd be of any aid?

I wouldn't say they were completely helpless. If Goku wasn't an idiot they would have killed Raditz without Gohan's help.

[Sayo-chan]

The same way #16 was of aid against Cell when he bear hugged him.

So Krillin would get Freeza in a bear hug, and Freeza would destroy Krillin with one blast the same way Cell destroyed #16 in one blast. That's considered help?

It's entirely situational. If 16's bomb could actually do anything to Cell, despite how it probably wouldn't, I'd consider it to be helpful.

[ahill1]

I didn't realize there was some sort of minimum power percentage required to be considered "useful" against an opponent. Is there a chart or spreadsheet of some sort in the guidebooks that I haven't seen?

It is impossible to have Freeza > Goku base. Goku base fought evenly with Yakon, which is already much stronger than Freeza; Kaioshin said he could one-shot Freeza and feared Yakon. Have Furiza > base Saiyans is factually wrong.

It's not anywhere near "impossible" or "factually wrong." Such brazen and exaggerated claims are unnecessary.

I'm curious to know why you're Freeza > base Saiyans. Just because of the movie? You will with the film even if it contradicts the manga?

[Kaboom]

I'm curious to know why you're Freeza > base Saiyans. Just because of the movie?

Back when I started making up power level lists, it's just where they ended up. I went through the series up to the Boo arc, applying what I believed to be reasonable jumps in power, and that's simply where and how the numbers landed in the end. The base Saiyans in the Majin Boo arc always ended up moderately weaker than 100% Freeza.

Then I spent a few years on somewhat less welcoming forums being told "that's impossible" and "that's bullshit" and "let me condescendingly explain to you why you're wrong," and generally not being treated like a viable member of the community just because of an ultimately unimportant opinion on how two characters' strengths compared.

So I obviously ignored those people. The bit from Battle of Gods and now Super just helped cement things for me even more.

You will(?) with the film even if it contradicts the manga?

Which it does not. There's a few things in the manga that could imply something or other, but they can all be explained and hand-waved in various ways. There is no straightforward "we're stronger than Freeza even without Super Saiyan now" line or demonstration anywhere in the manga. The revelation about it in Battle of Gods contradicts nothing but some fans' overly staunch opinions about the story before it.

You can bet I'm not going to let the same kind of "your <Opinion X> is factually wrong, my <Opinion Y> is factually right, deal with it" nonsense from less respectable communities infect Kanzenshuu. Have whatever opinions you want, but don't go proudly waving the "I'm right, you're wrong" flag around. There's remarkably few things about power levels that are so concrete and and undeniable.

[ahill1]

I'm curious to know why you're Freeza > base Saiyans. Just because of the movie?

Back when I started making up power level lists, it's just where they ended up. I went through the series up to the Boo arc, applying what I believed to be reasonable jumps in power, and that's simply where and how the numbers landed in the end. The base Saiyans in the Majin Boo arc always ended up moderately weaker than 100% Freeza.

Then I spent a few years on somewhat less welcoming forums being told "that's impossible" and "that's bullshit" and "let me condescendingly explain to you why you're wrong," and generally not being treated like a viable member of the community just because of an ultimately unimportant opinion on how two characters' strengths compared.

So I obviously ignored those people. The bit from Battle of Gods and now Super just helped cement things for me even more.

You will(?) with the film even if it contradicts the manga?

Which it does not. There's a few things in the manga that could imply something or other, but they can all be explained and hand-waved in various ways. There is no straightforward "we're stronger than Freeza even without Super Saiyan now" line or demonstration anywhere in the manga. The revelation about it in Battle of Gods contradicts nothing but some fans' overly staunch opinions about the story before it.

You can bet I'm not going to let the same kind of "your <Opinion X> is factually wrong, my <Opinion Y> is factually right, deal with it" nonsense from less respectable communities infect Kanzenshuu. Have whatever opinions you want, but don't go proudly waving the "I'm right, you're wrong" flag around. There's remarkably few things about power levels that are so concrete and and undeniable.

I understand... One more thing: why do you have Android 19/20 (pre) weaker than Frieza? SSJ Goku sick was still at a level 19 could win according to Gero and SSJ Goku sick > SSJ Goku (yardrat saga).

[Kaboom]

why do you have Android 19/20 (pre) weaker than Freeza? SSJ Goku sick was still at a level 19 could win according to Gero and SSJ Goku sick > SSJ Goku (yardrat saga).

A few reasons, really...

• Dr. Gero soon after that line worries that 19 will take too much damage before he can absorb any energy. Combine that with the unnatural Android durability and it sounds to me like that's what he was counting on.
• Vegeta says the Androids "don't seem as terrible as the rumors made out," indicating they're weaker than Trunks described them.
• Both 19 and 20 increased their power a LOT through absorption, but neither were still any match for Vegeta and Piccolo, and I don't believe any of the heroes got multiple times stronger than Goku or Freeza were on Namek. Especially because Goku was doing relatively low-level Earth training with people who started out much weaker than him. So starting the Androids out at a relatively low level below Freeza allows for them to get a lot stronger by absorbing energy but still be outclassed.

So all those things add up to a general sentiment of "Androids 19 and 20 weren't the real threat and aren't all that strong."

[h0kuten]

How is this for making Ultimate Gohan the strongest and Goku second?

Goku
~Base 100,000,000
~Ssj 5,000,000,000
~Ssj2 10,000,000,000
~Ssj3 40,000,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 80,000,000
~Ssj 4,000,000,000
~Ssj2 8,000,000,000

Gohan
~Base 55,000,000
~Ssj 2,750,000,000
~Ssj2 5,500,000,000
~Enraged 9,000,000,000
~Ultimate 45,000,000,000

Fat Boo
~Initial 5,000,000,000
~Powered Up 9,000,000,000
~Full Power 13,750,000,000 (2.5x Teen Gohan)

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 5,000,000,000 (Ssj2 tier in only Base, very impressive)
~Ssj 7,500,000,000 (Daizenshuu states him as inferior to Vegeta, which version? Pre-Majin?)

Super Boo
~Initial 13,750,000,000 (In the Viz translation, Kuririn doesn't notice a difference in Boo's strength when he goes from Fat to Super)
~Full Power 32,000,000,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 12,000,000,000 (Trunks says they are about 'equal' to Boo in their normal form. So probably not quite as powerful)
~Ssj 18,000,000,000 (The Ssj Multiplier in the RoSaT never infers a 50x boost in strength)
~Ssj3 36,000,000,000

Bootenks
~Full Power 68,000,000,000

Boohan
~Full Power 77,000,000,000

Vegetto
~Base 60,000,000,000
~Ssj 150,000,000,000

[ZombieVito]

Super Buu > Goku is a fact. You also have Goku way to strong and Gohan very weak.

[h0kuten]

Super Buu > Goku is a fact. You also have Goku way to strong and Gohan very weak.

It's not a fact, but let's not get into that, there was already a thread closed because of that type of discussion.

I was making a list following the logic that Goku is the strongest.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Here's my attempt at Freeza > Base Saiyans. Opinions?

Spoiler:

Cell arc

Trunks' Arrival

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan - 180,000,000
~ base - 3,600,000

Son Gohan
~ base - 1,200,000

Krillin
~ full power - 1,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 148,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 183,000

Chaozu
~ full power - 61,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 3,000,000

Vegeta
~ base - 3,200,000

Future Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 160,000,000
~ base - 3,200,000

Mecha Freeza
~ suppressed - 100,000,000
~ full power - 150,000,000

King Cold
~ full power - 90,000,000


The Future

Future Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan (1 arm) - 150,000,000
~ base (1 arm) - 3,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 100,000,000
~ base - 2,000,000

Future Android #18
~ max power - 240,000,000

Future Android #17
~ 45% power - 125,000,000
~ max power - 275,000,000


Battle with the Androids

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan (full power) - 250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (sick) - 200,000,000
~ base - 5,000,000

Son Gohan
~ base - 3,600,000

Krillin
~ full power - 3,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 400,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 525,000

Piccolo
~ suppressed - 4,000,000
~ full power - 210,000,000
~ post-fusion (weighted) - 378,000,000
~ post-fusion (full power) - 420,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan - 260,000,000
~ base - 5,200,000

Future Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 240,000,000
~ base - 4,800,000

Android #19
~ initial - 120,000,000
~ post-Ki absorbtion - 150,000,000

Android #20
~ initial - 135,000,000
~ post-Ki absorbtion - 180,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 400,000,000


The quest for perfection

Piccolo
~ full power - 420,000,000
~ fatigued - 380,000,000
~ fatigued (Gekiretsu Kodan) - 1,330,000,0000

Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 (drained) - 960,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 1,100,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 660,000,000
~ base - 13,200,000

Future Trunks (post-RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 1,751,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 1,030,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 618,000,000
~ base - 12,360,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 400,000,000

Android #16
~ max power - 500,000,000

Cell
~ 1st form (initial) - 315,000,000
~ 1st form (post-Humans) - 540,000,000
~ 2nd form (suppressed) - 640,000,000
~ 2nd form (full power) - 800,000,000
~ Perfect form ('fake Ki') - 1,000,000,000
~ Perfect form (warming up) - 1,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (power weighted) - 1,751,000,000


The Cell Games

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan (full power) - 2,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (60%) - 1,440,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 6,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,300,000,000
~ base - 66,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 3,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 400,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 525,000

Piccolo (post-RoSaT)
~ full power - 900,000,000

Vegeta (post-2nd RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan - 1,600,000,000
~ base - 32,000,000

Future Trunks (post-2nd RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan - 1,500,000,000
~ base - 30,000,000

Cell
~ Perfect form (warming up) - 1,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (powered up suppression) - 2,700,000,000
~ Perfect form (full power) - 4,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (power weighted) - 5,000,000,000
~ Perfect form ('Super Perfect') - 6,000,000,000

Cell Junior
~ full power - 1,650,000,000

Spoiler:

Boo arc

25th Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goku
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 5,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000
~ base - 45,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,500,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 320,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 1,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 6,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,000,000,000
~ base - 60,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power - 2,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 20,000,000


Spaceship Confrontations

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 2 (full power) - 7,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 (suppressed burst) - 6,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,600,000,000
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 5,000,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000
~ base - 45,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,500,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 (Majin) - 7,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (Majin) - 3,600,000,000
~ base (Majin) - 72,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 6,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,000,000,000
~ base - 60,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power - 2,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 20,000,000

Pocus
~ full power - 37,500,000

Yakon
~ full power - 75,000,000

Dabra
~ full power - 4,500,000,000

Majin Boo
~ initial - 4,800,000,000
~ power up - 8,000,000,000
~ full power - 18,000,000,000


Havoc

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 21,600,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,500,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000

Majin Boo
~ full power - 18,000,000,000


Kaioshin's faraway planet

Son Goku
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 (Zeta Sword) - 16,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (Zeta Sword) - 8,100,000,000
~ base (Zeta Sword) - 162,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 5,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power - 2,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 20,000,000


Fusion

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 21,600,000,000
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Ultimate - 200,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan (post-RoSaT) - 2,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000
~ base - 45,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ base - 72,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan (post-RoSaT) - 2,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Gotenks
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 162,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 54,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 27,000,000,000
~ base (post-RoSaT) - 540,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 22,500,000,000
~ base - 450,000,000

Vegetto
~ Super Saiyan - 5,000,000,000,000
~ base - 100,000,000,000

Majin Boo
~ (Fat) - 18,000,000,000
~ (Good) - 8,000,000,000
~ (Pure Evil) - 10,000,000,000
~ (Evil) - 135,000,000,000
~ (Gotenks absorbed) - 297,000,000,000
~ (Gohan absorbed) - 335,000,000,000


The Final Battle

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 21,600,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 7,200,000,000

Good Boo
~ full power - 8,000,000,000

Pure Boo
~ full power - 20,000,000,000

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan (post God) - 75,000,000,000,000
~ base (post God) - 60,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan God - 90,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 30,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 10,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 5,000,000,000
~ base - 100,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Ultimate - 200,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,400,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 300,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 1,200,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,500,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 (enraged) - 32,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 10,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 5,000,000,000
~ base - 100,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Kibitoshin
~ full power - 7,000,000,000

Gotenks
~ Super Saiyan - 27,000,000,000
~ base - 540,000,000

Vegetto (Hypothetical)
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 42,000,000,000,000

Beers
~ 70% power - 105,000,000,000,000
~ full power - 150,000,000,000,000

Whiss
~ full power - 225,000,000,000,000

[h0kuten]

Legend

This legend is based off of the Vegeta vs Dodoria fight.

Gaps

~5% technique can still make a difference.
~10% is equal to an ensured victory for the stronger fighter.
~15% is tank range, blood is drawn, knocked off balance.
~20% is tank range, blood is not drawn, head is moved.
~25% is tank range, blood is not drawn, there are no movements.

Goku
~Ssj 150,000,000

Frieza
~Ssj 120,000,000

Arrival of Trunks

Spoiler:

Goku
~Ssj 170,000,000

Trunks
~Ssj 160,000,000

Mecha Frieza
~FP 142,500,000

3 Years Later...

Spoiler:

Goku
~Sick 187,000,000
~Ssj 210,000,000

Vegeta
~Ssj 220,500,000

Trunks
~Ssj 190,000,000

Piccolo
~FP 170,000,000

Android 19
~Pre 120,000,000
~Post 170,000,000

Android 20
~Pre 125,000,000
~Post 160,000,000

Arrival of The Androids

Spoiler:

Kamiccolo
~FP 280,000,000

Android 18
~FP 255,000,000
Android 17
~FP 280,000,000
Android 16
~FP 350,000,000

Imperfect Cell
~Pre 240,000,000
~Post 350,000,000

Cell is Complete

Spoiler:

Semi-Perfect Celll
~Initial 440,000,000
~Full Power 500,000,000

Vegeta
~Ssj 383,333,333
~SsjG2 575,000,000

Trunks
~Ssj 350,000,000
~SsjG2 525,000,000
~SsjG3 700,000,000

Perfect Cell
~Initial 550,000,000
~Silent Power Up 650,000,000

The Cell Games

Spoiler:

Goku
~50% 620,000,000
~Ssj 1,240,000,000

Gohan
~Ssj 1,550,000,000
~Ssj2 3,100,000,000

Vegeta
~Ssj 900,000,000

Trunks
~Ssj 900,000,000

Perfect Cell
~Silent Power Up 650,000,000
~Powered Up 1,302,000,000
~Increased Speed 1,3640,000,000
~Real Speed 1,705,000,000
~Full Power 2,000,000,000

Super Perfect
~Full Power 2,750,000,000

The Majin Boo Saga

Spoiler:

Goku
~Base 35,000,000
~Ssj 1,750,000,000
~Ssj2 3,500,000,000
~Ssj3 14,000,000,000

Vegeta Pre-Majin
~Base 26,000,000
~Ssj 1,300,000,000
~Ssj2 2,600,000,000
'
Teen Gohan
~Base 20,000,000
~Ssj 1,000,000,000
~Ssj2 2,000,000,000
~Ultimate 48,000,000,000

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 2,000,000,000
~Ssj 4,000,000,000

Fat Boo
~Initial 1,500,000,000
~Powered Up 3,000,000,000
~Full Power 4,200,000,000

super Boo
~Full Power 36,000,000,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 5,000,000,000
~Ssj 10,000,000,000
~Ssj2 20,000,000,000
~Ssj3 40,000,000,000

Buutenks
~Full Power 76,000,000,000
Buuhan
~Full Power 84,000,000,000

Vegetto
~Base 75,000,000,000
~Ssj 150,000,000,000

BoG

Spoiler:

Goku
~Base 100,000,000
~Ssj 5,000,000,000
~Ssj2 10,000,000,000
~Ssj3 40,000,000,000

Vegeta
~Base 100,000,000
~Ssj 5,000,000,000
~Ssj2 10,000,000,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 4,500,000,000
~Ssj 9,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan
~Full Power 36,000,000,000

Good Boo
~Full Power 7,200,000,000

[ZombieVito]

Here's my attempt at Freeza > Base Saiyans. Opinions?

Spoiler:

Cell arc

Trunks' Arrival

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan - 180,000,000
~ base - 3,600,000

Son Gohan
~ base - 1,200,000

Krillin
~ full power - 1,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 148,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 183,000

Chaozu
~ full power - 61,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 3,000,000

Vegeta
~ base - 3,200,000

Future Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 160,000,000
~ base - 3,200,000

Mecha Freeza
~ suppressed - 100,000,000
~ full power - 150,000,000

King Cold
~ full power - 90,000,000


The Future

Future Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan (1 arm) - 150,000,000
~ base (1 arm) - 3,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 100,000,000
~ base - 2,000,000

Future Android #18
~ max power - 240,000,000

Future Android #17
~ 45% power - 125,000,000
~ max power - 275,000,000


Battle with the Androids

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan (full power) - 250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (sick) - 200,000,000
~ base - 5,000,000

Son Gohan
~ base - 3,600,000

Krillin
~ full power - 3,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 400,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 525,000

Piccolo
~ suppressed - 4,000,000
~ full power - 210,000,000
~ post-fusion (weighted) - 378,000,000
~ post-fusion (full power) - 420,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan - 260,000,000
~ base - 5,200,000

Future Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 240,000,000
~ base - 4,800,000

Android #19
~ initial - 120,000,000
~ post-Ki absorbtion - 150,000,000

Android #20
~ initial - 135,000,000
~ post-Ki absorbtion - 180,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 400,000,000


The quest for perfection

Piccolo
~ full power - 420,000,000
~ fatigued - 380,000,000
~ fatigued (Gekiretsu Kodan) - 1,330,000,0000

Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 (drained) - 960,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 1,100,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 660,000,000
~ base - 13,200,000

Future Trunks (post-RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 1,751,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 1,030,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 618,000,000
~ base - 12,360,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 400,000,000

Android #16
~ max power - 500,000,000

Cell
~ 1st form (initial) - 315,000,000
~ 1st form (post-Humans) - 540,000,000
~ 2nd form (suppressed) - 640,000,000
~ 2nd form (full power) - 800,000,000
~ Perfect form ('fake Ki') - 1,000,000,000
~ Perfect form (warming up) - 1,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (power weighted) - 1,751,000,000


The Cell Games

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan (full power) - 2,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (60%) - 1,440,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 6,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,300,000,000
~ base - 66,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 3,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 400,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 525,000

Piccolo (post-RoSaT)
~ full power - 900,000,000

Vegeta (post-2nd RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan - 1,600,000,000
~ base - 32,000,000

Future Trunks (post-2nd RoSaT)
~ Super Saiyan - 1,500,000,000
~ base - 30,000,000

Cell
~ Perfect form (warming up) - 1,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (powered up suppression) - 2,700,000,000
~ Perfect form (full power) - 4,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (power weighted) - 5,000,000,000
~ Perfect form ('Super Perfect') - 6,000,000,000

Cell Junior
~ full power - 1,650,000,000

Spoiler:

Boo arc

25th Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goku
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 5,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000
~ base - 45,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,500,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 320,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 1,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 6,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,000,000,000
~ base - 60,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power - 2,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 20,000,000


Spaceship Confrontations

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 2 (full power) - 7,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 (suppressed burst) - 6,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,600,000,000
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 5,000,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000
~ base - 45,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,500,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 (Majin) - 7,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (Majin) - 3,600,000,000
~ base (Majin) - 72,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 6,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,000,000,000
~ base - 60,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power - 2,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 20,000,000

Pocus
~ full power - 37,500,000

Yakon
~ full power - 75,000,000

Dabra
~ full power - 4,500,000,000

Majin Boo
~ initial - 4,800,000,000
~ power up - 8,000,000,000
~ full power - 18,000,000,000


Havoc

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 21,600,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,500,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000

Majin Boo
~ full power - 18,000,000,000


Kaioshin's faraway planet

Son Goku
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 (Zeta Sword) - 16,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (Zeta Sword) - 8,100,000,000
~ base (Zeta Sword) - 162,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 5,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Kaioshin
~ full power - 2,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 20,000,000


Fusion

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 21,600,000,000
~ base - 72,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Ultimate - 200,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan (post-RoSaT) - 2,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,250,000,000
~ base - 45,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ base - 72,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan (post-RoSaT) - 2,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400,000,000
~ base - 48,000,000

Gotenks
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 162,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 54,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 27,000,000,000
~ base (post-RoSaT) - 540,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 22,500,000,000
~ base - 450,000,000

Vegetto
~ Super Saiyan - 5,000,000,000,000
~ base - 100,000,000,000

Majin Boo
~ (Fat) - 18,000,000,000
~ (Good) - 8,000,000,000
~ (Pure Evil) - 10,000,000,000
~ (Evil) - 135,000,000,000
~ (Gotenks absorbed) - 297,000,000,000
~ (Gohan absorbed) - 335,000,000,000


The Final Battle

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 21,600,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 7,200,000,000

Good Boo
~ full power - 8,000,000,000

Pure Boo
~ full power - 20,000,000,000

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan (post God) - 75,000,000,000,000
~ base (post God) - 60,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan God - 90,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 30,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 10,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 5,000,000,000
~ base - 100,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Ultimate - 200,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Krillin
~ full power - 2,400,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 300,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 1,200,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 1,500,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 (enraged) - 32,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 10,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 5,000,000,000
~ base - 100,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
~ base - 50,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 350,000,000

Kibitoshin
~ full power - 7,000,000,000

Gotenks
~ Super Saiyan - 27,000,000,000
~ base - 540,000,000

Vegetto (Hypothetical)
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 42,000,000,000,000

Beers
~ 70% power - 105,000,000,000,000
~ full power - 150,000,000,000,000

Whiss
~ full power - 225,000,000,000,000

1) Either bump Trunks or nerf Freeza.
2) I personally don't see any human reaching the million after seeing RoF but that's just opinion I guess. Kuririn's lead on Tenshinhan is a too much no?
3) Piccolo and 20 (post absorbtions) are a little high for my taste.
4) The gap between 16 and Semi Cell could be a bit bigger.
5) Piccolo is way to low in the CG.
6) Vegeta = Trunks = Cell Juniors.
7) So I guess you don't agree with what was stated about Gohan in D2 right? This changes a lot of BP's in the Buu saga.
Goten and Trunks are a bit too close to Gohan for me. Maybe nerf them a little bit.
9) I personally would have Kibito a lot higher.
10) You got a typo, Kuririn is 10 times stronger in the Havoc section.
11) I would lower Fat Buu's full power. It's too close to Goku's SSJ3.
12) I recently left go of the idea that Gohan got that strong in just a day. At best I would put him a little bit above Goku after his Z Sword training.
13) Gotenks (pre RoSaT) < Vegeta but I guess it's useless to say this.
14) I guess it's a matter of preference but I wouldn't put Vegetto that high from Buu, a 1.5 gap is just all that it's needed.
15) IMO Good Buu recovered his full power when he was absorbed. He fought way better than Vegeta did.
16) You bloat to much in BoG but I guess it's because you bloat Vegetto too much.

Overall it's a good list.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

1) Either bump Trunks or nerf Freeza.
2) I personally don't see any human reaching the million after seeing RoF but that's just opinion I guess. Kuririn's lead on Tenshinhan is a too much no?
3) Piccolo and 20 (post absorbtions) are a little high for my taste.
4) The gap between 16 and Semi Cell could be a bit bigger.
5) Piccolo is way to low in the CG.
6) Vegeta = Trunks = Cell Juniors.
7) So I guess you don't agree with what was stated about Gohan in D2 right? This changes a lot of BP's in the Buu saga.
Goten and Trunks are a bit too close to Gohan for me. Maybe nerf them a little bit.
9) I personally would have Kibito a lot higher.
10) You got a typo, Kuririn is 10 times stronger in the Havoc section.
11) I would lower Fat Buu's full power. It's too close to Goku's SSJ3.
12) I recently left go of the idea that Gohan got that strong in just a day. At best I would put him a little bit above Goku after his Z Sword training.
13) Gotenks (pre RoSaT) < Vegeta but I guess it's useless to say this.
14) I guess it's a matter of preference but I wouldn't put Vegetto that high from Buu, a 1.5 gap is just all that it's needed.
15) IMO Good Buu recovered his full power when he was absorbed. He fought way better than Vegeta did.
16) You bloat to much in BoG but I guess it's because you bloat Vegetto too much.

Overall it's a good list.

1. I guess I could put Freeza at 144 mil or so. I prefer to keep a noticeable gap between Goku and Trunks.
2. Well, to be honest, RoF is a mess to me. Roshi seemed more impressive than Krillin. I just prefer to keep them somewhat relevant. I also think Krillin's power continued to rise after Namek because of Guru, so that coupled with training really widened the gap between him and Ten that existed prior because of Krillin's huge increases on Namek. I do think I'm generous enough with the human's gains on Kaio's (anyone notice anything about their levels, yet?)
3. I personally see #20 post capable of beating SS Trunks from 3 years back based on Piccolo's hesitance to deem #20 too weak for sure.
4. For the sake of being conservative, I just assume Cell used his full power to tank #16 and then suppressed sometime when he was destroying the islands to conserve energy.
5. I suppose so. I went with Kaioshit being above Piccolo in this list by a solid margin and I prefer to have the former well below the Super Saiyan adults. I tend to place Piccolo around 50% Goku or so.
6. There's one Daizenshuu saying the Cell Kids are stronger than Trunks and Vegeta, and I stick to the status quo throughout the Cell arc of Vegeta >= Trunks instead of making them dead equal.
7. Nah. A "rage boost" for Gohan would bloat things more for me, and I just can't see Gohan not being weaker when reading the manga myself. Piccolo Daimao proves Ki can atrophy.
8. Well, I guess that's preference but I also like neat numbers. Gohan and Goten's second sparring match seemed fairly even compared to their first.
9. That's admittedly because I hate Kibito because of him being a pretentious prick.
10. Thanks for pointing that out :p
11. http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t207 ... -gap/2.htm / http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8923565&t=8441082
12. I agree. This list is old, so somethings I haven't changed.
13. I just personally disagree, I just can't see fusion being hyped up so much to have such pitiful results. I will take this opportunity however to apologize for my rude behavior before, I should've let it go, we can agree to disagree here.
14. Well, that's because I also made a GT list to go with this list. GT numerically supports a large gap between Gohan-Boo and Vegetto which is why I had it like that. If there was no GT involved I would nerf the gap to like 2x-3x or so. 1.5x is just a tad too small for my tastes.
15. Well, I think Pure Boo was toying initially, but I agree Innocent Boo is a good deal stronger than Vegeta.
16. Well, Gods are >>> fusion in my opinion, that's what the movie implied IMO. As for the reasons stated, I also have a super strong Vegetto, which I could change.

[ZombieVito]

1) Either bump Trunks or nerf Freeza.
2) I personally don't see any human reaching the million after seeing RoF but that's just opinion I guess. Kuririn's lead on Tenshinhan is a too much no?
3) Piccolo and 20 (post absorbtions) are a little high for my taste.
4) The gap between 16 and Semi Cell could be a bit bigger.
5) Piccolo is way to low in the CG.
6) Vegeta = Trunks = Cell Juniors.
7) So I guess you don't agree with what was stated about Gohan in D2 right? This changes a lot of BP's in the Buu saga.
Goten and Trunks are a bit too close to Gohan for me. Maybe nerf them a little bit.
9) I personally would have Kibito a lot higher.
10) You got a typo, Kuririn is 10 times stronger in the Havoc section.
11) I would lower Fat Buu's full power. It's too close to Goku's SSJ3.
12) I recently left go of the idea that Gohan got that strong in just a day. At best I would put him a little bit above Goku after his Z Sword training.
13) Gotenks (pre RoSaT) < Vegeta but I guess it's useless to say this.
14) I guess it's a matter of preference but I wouldn't put Vegetto that high from Buu, a 1.5 gap is just all that it's needed.
15) IMO Good Buu recovered his full power when he was absorbed. He fought way better than Vegeta did.
16) You bloat to much in BoG but I guess it's because you bloat Vegetto too much.

Overall it's a good list.

1. I guess I could put Freeza at 144 mil or so. I prefer to keep a noticeable gap between Goku and Trunks.
2. Well, to be honest, RoF is a mess to me. Roshi seemed more impressive than Krillin. I just prefer to keep them somewhat relevant. I also think Krillin's power continued to rise after Namek because of Guru, so that coupled with training really widened the gap between him and Ten that existed prior because of Krillin's huge increases on Namek. I do think I'm generous enough with the human's gains on Kaio's (anyone notice anything about their levels, yet?)
3. I personally see #20 post capable of beating SS Trunks from 3 years back based on Piccolo's hesitance to deem #20 too weak for sure.
4. For the sake of being conservative, I just assume Cell used his full power to tank #16 and then suppressed sometime when he was destroying the islands to conserve energy.
5. I suppose so. I went with Kaioshit being above Piccolo in this list by a solid margin and I prefer to have the former well below the Super Saiyan adults. I tend to place Piccolo around 50% Goku or so.
6. There's one Daizenshuu saying the Cell Kids are stronger than Trunks and Vegeta, and I stick to the status quo throughout the Cell arc of Vegeta >= Trunks instead of making them dead equal.
7. Nah. A "rage boost" for Gohan would bloat things more for me, and I just can't see Gohan not being weaker when reading the manga myself. Piccolo Daimao proves Ki can atrophy.
8. Well, I guess that's preference but I also like neat numbers. Gohan and Goten's second sparring match seemed fairly even compared to their first.
9. That's admittedly because I hate Kibito because of him being a pretentious prick.
10. Thanks for pointing that out :p
11. http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t207 ... -gap/2.htm / http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8923565&t=8441082
12. I agree. This list is old, so somethings I haven't changed.
13. I just personally disagree, I just can't see fusion being hyped up so much to have such pitiful results. I will take this opportunity however to apologize for my rude behavior before, I should've let it go, we can agree to disagree here.
14. Well, that's because I also made a GT list to go with this list. GT numerically supports a large gap between Gohan-Boo and Vegetto which is why I had it like that. If there was no GT involved I would nerf the gap to like 2x-3x or so. 1.5x is just a tad too small for my tastes.
15. Well, I think Pure Boo was toying initially, but I agree Innocent Boo is a good deal stronger than Vegeta.
16. Well, Gods are >>> fusion in my opinion, that's what the movie implied IMO. As for the reasons stated, I also have a super strong Vegetto, which I could change.

1) Well the only statement about their powers is that Goku surpassed Trunks expectations. I think having them a bit closer shouldn't be an issue.
2) Many soldiers in the army were low rated ones. It's easy to assume Roshi fought the very weak ones.
3) Fair enough.
4) It's possible I'll give you that.
5) Yeah that's the general range. 50-55% of Goku.
6) Really? Mind saying which one?
7) I just can't see someone that young getting weaker for not training when Roshi didn't from EoB to BoZ. Rage boost makes a lot of sense for me.
By little I meant like 10%.
9) Well I guess Kibito could still manage something at that level.
10) No problem.
11) Very interesting. I'll have to think about this a bit more.
13) I agree. Thanks for apologizing.
14) Now it makes sense. I personally don't bother with GT since I don't view it as canon.
15) Well I always assume by fusion the maximum Goku was referring to was SSJ1 Vegetto since that's the only form the character used in the story. That should lower the bloat quite a bit.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

2) Many soldiers in the army were low rated ones. It's easy to assume Roshi fought the very weak ones.
6) Really? Mind saying which one?
7) I just can't see someone that young getting weaker for not training when Roshi didn't from EoB to BoZ. Rage boost makes a lot of sense for me.
14) Now it makes sense. I personally don't bother with GT since I don't view it as canon.
15) Well I always assume by fusion the maximum Goku was referring to was SSJ1 Vegetto since that's the only form the character used in the story. That should lower the bloat quite a bit.

2. That's true. I just personally feel RoF showed Toriyama forgot a lot of stuff. I could probably lower Tenshinhan though, since I didn't even realize I have him making better gains into the Boo arc than I do Goku/Vegeta.

6.

Gohan at last unleashes his full power! He defeats the Cell Juniors, who had power greater than Vegeta, one after the other.

http://web.archive.org/web/201111031701 ... _hist#link

7. I personally like to think Roshi does maintenance training personally. Gohan in the Boo arc just seemed so pathetic to me.
14 and 15. Yeah, I could probably make separate BPs for GT overall which does make things a lot easier. I'll post the list again if I ever update.

As for why I choose SS3 Vegetto to be weaker than Beers instead of SS1 Vegetto, IMO, the movie just doesn't feel so tense knowing Goku and Vegeta could've just fused into SS2/3 Vegetto and easily beat Beers and Whiss. It's personal preference suppose.

[ZombieVito]

2) Many soldiers in the army were low rated ones. It's easy to assume Roshi fought the very weak ones.
6) Really? Mind saying which one?
7) I just can't see someone that young getting weaker for not training when Roshi didn't from EoB to BoZ. Rage boost makes a lot of sense for me.
14) Now it makes sense. I personally don't bother with GT since I don't view it as canon.
15) Well I always assume by fusion the maximum Goku was referring to was SSJ1 Vegetto since that's the only form the character used in the story. That should lower the bloat quite a bit.

2. That's true. I just personally feel RoF showed Toriyama forgot a lot of stuff. I could probably lower Tenshinhan though, since I didn't even realize I have him making better gains into the Boo arc than I do Goku/Vegeta.

6.

Gohan at last unleashes his full power! He defeats the Cell Juniors, who had power greater than Vegeta, one after the other.

http://web.archive.org/web/201111031701 ... _hist#link

7. I personally like to think Roshi does maintenance training personally. Gohan in the Boo arc just seemed so pathetic to me.
14 and 15. Yeah, I could probably make separate BPs for GT overall which does make things a lot easier. I'll post the list again if I ever update.

As for why I choose SS3 Vegetto to be weaker than Beers instead of SS1 Vegetto, IMO, the movie just doesn't feel so tense knowing Goku and Vegeta could've just fused into SS2/3 Vegetto and easily beat Beers and Whiss. It's personal preference suppose.

6.- I always take the attitude of "newer information overrides old information when they conflict between themselves" So in that case I'll go with what is said in D7.
7.- I hardly think Roshi does that, since AT said he just passes his days watching dirty mags and those aerobic shows.
Don't get me wrong I still view SSJ3 Vegetto weaker than SSG Goku and Beerus but it's not that high of a gap. SSJ3 Vegetto would probably be a 4 at most to Beerus 10.

[ahill1]

I get sad when I see people putting Freeza in 120,000,000. Feeza fought evenly with Goku SSJ; Place him at least in 140,000,000.