Are BoG and RoF dragging the series downhill?

[Kamiccolo9]

Instead I'd prefer if they tried to give us a halfway intelligent or meaningful story with new and old characters.

I can't see that happening, at least not with Toriyama at the helm. The man just isn't capable of writing stories like that, and he knows it.

Of course he is. The Saiyan and Freeza arcs are perfect examples of cohesive, meaningful and great writing. He just doesn't want to, or can't anymore.

I wouldn't call Lord "I'm not really left-handed" Freeza great writing. I mean, I enjoy the pre-Goku Freeza fight, but the actual events themselves are kinda....meh. Also, all the buildup with Gohan, and little actual payoff is just as evident here as it is in the Buu Arc.

[Lord Beerus]

Instead I'd prefer if they tried to give us a halfway intelligent or meaningful story with new and old characters.

I can't see that happening, at least not with Toriyama at the helm. The man just isn't capable of writing stories like that, and he knows it.

Jaco The Galactic Patrolman?

[Zanza]

Instead I'd prefer if they tried to give us a halfway intelligent or meaningful story with new and old characters.

I can't see that happening, at least not with Toriyama at the helm. The man just isn't capable of writing stories like that, and he knows it.

Of course he is. The Saiyan and Freeza arcs are perfect examples of cohesive, meaningful and great writing. He just doesn't want to, or can't anymore.

I wouldn't say that. While the Saiyan and Freeza sagas might not be as bad as other sagas in the series, I'd hardly call them meaningful or well-written. They were just simple good vs evil stories, and they never really went beyond that.

[Doctor.]

I wouldn't call Lord "I'm not really left-handed" Freeza great writing. I mean, I enjoy the pre-Goku Freeza fight, but the actual events themselves are kinda....meh. Also, all the buildup with Gohan, and little actual payoff is just as evident here as it is in the Buu Arc.

Both arcs possessed a level of tension, despair and a lack of hope that we've never experienced before (or after) in the series. The entire cat and mouse chase of the early Freeza arc was incredibly entertaining and played off the strengths of each party involved, Vegeta's characterization through the two arcs was great, the build-up to the Super Saiyan was fantastic and they were the arcs who best utilized its cast. It plays with the themes of death, revenge and morality in a great way. They're the pinnacle of Dragon Ball's writing, to me at least.

[Sayo-chan]

I wouldn't call Lord "I'm not really left-handed" Freeza great writing. I mean, I enjoy the pre-Goku Freeza fight, but the actual events themselves are kinda....meh. Also, all the buildup with Gohan, and little actual payoff is just as evident here as it is in the Buu Arc.

Both arcs possessed a level of tension, despair and a lack of hope that we've never experienced before (or after) in the series. The entire cat and mouse chase of the early Freeza arc was incredibly entertaining and played off the strengths of each party involved, Vegeta's characterization through the two arcs was great, the build-up to the Super Saiyan was fantastic and they were the arcs who best utilized its cast. It plays with the themes of death, revenge and morality in a great way. They're the pinnacle of Dragon Ball's writing, to me at least.

The Cell arc was probably the most well executed arc out of the four. Specifically the Imperfect Cell portion. That's a good game of cat and mouse, granted I'm mainly referring to the anime there, because the filler is amazing.

[Kamiccolo9]

I wouldn't call Lord "I'm not really left-handed" Freeza great writing. I mean, I enjoy the pre-Goku Freeza fight, but the actual events themselves are kinda....meh. Also, all the buildup with Gohan, and little actual payoff is just as evident here as it is in the Buu Arc.

Both arcs possessed a level of tension, despair and a lack of hope that we've never experienced before (or after) in the series. The entire cat and mouse chase of the early Freeza arc was incredibly entertaining and played off the strengths of each party involved, Vegeta's characterization through the two arcs was great, the build-up to the Super Saiyan was fantastic and they were the arcs who best utilized its cast. It plays with the themes of death, revenge and morality in a great way. They're the pinnacle of Dragon Ball's writing, to me at least.

Yeah, it has a bunch of good stuff. But that's different than saying that it's great writing.

Of course, "good" is inherently subjective, but, to me at least, Toriyama's writing is a bit too simplistic and flighty for me to consider it "great." Your mileage may vary, of course.

[Doctor.]

Yeah, it has a bunch of good stuff. But that's different than saying that it's great writing.

Of course, "good" is inherently subjective, but, to me at least, Toriyama's writing is a bit too simplistic and flighty for me to consider it "great." Your mileage may vary, of course.

I say great when compared to other Shounen stuff. I think it's unfair to compare different genres and demographics, so I when I say something's "bad" or something's "good", it's usually in comparison to other works of fiction that are similar in terms of genre.

It baffles me, for instance, when someone says the Metal Gear Solid series is better written than something like, say, Final Fantasy. How is that remotely comparable?

[ekrolo2]

I wouldn't call Lord "I'm not really left-handed" Freeza great writing. I mean, I enjoy the pre-Goku Freeza fight, but the actual events themselves are kinda....meh. Also, all the buildup with Gohan, and little actual payoff is just as evident here as it is in the Buu Arc.

Both arcs possessed a level of tension, despair and a lack of hope that we've never experienced before (or after) in the series. The entire cat and mouse chase of the early Freeza arc was incredibly entertaining and played off the strengths of each party involved, Vegeta's characterization through the two arcs was great, the build-up to the Super Saiyan was fantastic and they were the arcs who best utilized its cast. It plays with the themes of death, revenge and morality in a great way. They're the pinnacle of Dragon Ball's writing, to me at least.

Yeah, it has a bunch of good stuff. But that's different than saying that it's great writing.

Of course, "good" is inherently subjective, but, to me at least, Toriyama's writing is a bit too simplistic and flighty for me to consider it "great." Your mileage may vary, of course.

I'd say Kai executed the Freeza fight the best, keeping the visions Goku experiences of both Planet Vegeta and Earth being destroyed to add to the psychological stress he's going through on top of giving his actual fight with Freeza in the later half some meat. Seriously, without interruptions they fight 3 or 4 chapters at most in the manga and its over.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, it has a bunch of good stuff. But that's different than saying that it's great writing.

Of course, "good" is inherently subjective, but, to me at least, Toriyama's writing is a bit too simplistic and flighty for me to consider it "great." Your mileage may vary, of course.

I say great when compared to other Shounen stuff. I think it's unfair to compare different genres and demographics, so I when I say something's "bad" or something's "good", it's usually in comparison to other works of fiction that are similar in terms of genre.

It baffles me, for instance, when someone says the Metal Gear Solid series is better written than something like, say, Final Fantasy. How is that remotely comparable?

I'm no Shonen expert, but I've read quite a few that were consistently better than Dragon Ball. So that's not really the best example, for me, at least.

I've got no issue comparing MGS writing to Final Fantasy, either.

[Doctor.]

I'm no Shonen expert, but I've read quite a few that were consistently better than Dragon Ball. So that's not really the best example, for me, at least.

I've got no issue comparing MGS writing to Final Fantasy, either.

I've read plenty of Shounen that are miles better. The Rurouni Kenshin that you love so much, for example. I still think those arcs hold its own even compared to a manga that has great writing the whole way through. Especially when the majority of Shounen is straight-up garbage.

I don't like comparing quality when the two things are too different is all, probably should have used a better example but whatever.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm no Shonen expert, but I've read quite a few that were consistently better than Dragon Ball. So that's not really the best example, for me, at least.

I've got no issue comparing MGS writing to Final Fantasy, either.

I've read plenty of Shounen that are miles better. The Rurouni Kenshin that you love so much, for example. I still think those arcs hold its own even compared to a manga that has great writing the whole way through. Especially when the majority of Shounen is straight-up garbage.

I don't like comparing quality when the two things are too different is all, probably should have used a better example but whatever.

Well, my experience with Manga is limited to Kenshin, Yugioh, and Inuyasha, all of which I consider to be much better-written than Dragon Ball. So maybe I'm not the best person to judge based on its quality as compared to other Shonen.

[Sayo-chan]

I'm no Shonen expert, but I've read quite a few that were consistently better than Dragon Ball. So that's not really the best example, for me, at least.

I've got no issue comparing MGS writing to Final Fantasy, either.

I've read plenty of Shounen that are miles better. The Rurouni Kenshin that you love so much, for example. I still think those arcs hold its own even compared to a manga that has great writing the whole way through. Especially when the majority of Shounen is straight-up garbage.

I don't like comparing quality when the two things are too different is all, probably should have used a better example but whatever.

Well, my experience with Manga is limited to Kenshin, Yugioh, and Inuyasha, all of which I consider to be much better-written than Dragon Ball. So maybe I'm not the best person to judge based on its quality as compared to other Shonen.

Yu-Gi-Oh! is the furthest thing from well written. I don't think I've ever been so irritated reading a manga series before. It's far more inconsistent than Dragon Ball. I think I counted about 4-5 plot holes in Yugi's duel with Pegasus alone. The anime's even worse about it. They just ignore what's written on the cards half the time and make up their own rules. .-.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yu-Gi-Oh! is the furthest thing from well written. I don't think I've ever been so irritated reading a manga series before. It's far more inconsistent than Dragon Ball. I think I counted about 4-5 plot holes in Yugi's duel with Pegasus alone. The anime's even worse about it. They just ignore what's written on the cards half the time and make up their own rules. .-.

No, the real life cards ignored what the show had already done. There are very few actual plotholes in the series itself.

And the rule thing is covered, in universe. Duelist Kingdom operated under a totally different ruleset than Battle City.

[Mewzard]

Yu-Gi-Oh! is the furthest thing from well written. I don't think I've ever been so irritated reading a manga series before. It's far more inconsistent than Dragon Ball. I think I counted about 4-5 plot holes in Yugi's duel with Pegasus alone. The anime's even worse about it. They just ignore what's written on the cards half the time and make up their own rules. .-.

The manga predates the card game, so the card game changed rules for the sake of a balanced game. Also, yeah, the rules of the game did change over time. The first Kaiba duels were early concept for the game, then Pegasus had his Duelist Kingdom rules, then Kaiba made his own Battle City rules.

I'd say Dragon Ball's fairly well written, especially for a series so often made up on the fly. To this day, it still holds a position in my top ten Jump series list.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yu-Gi-Oh! is the furthest thing from well written. I don't think I've ever been so irritated reading a manga series before. It's far more inconsistent than Dragon Ball. I think I counted about 4-5 plot holes in Yugi's duel with Pegasus alone. The anime's even worse about it. They just ignore what's written on the cards half the time and make up their own rules. .-.

The manga predates the card game, so the card game changed rules for the sake of a balanced game. Also, yeah, the rules of the game did change over time. The first Kaiba duels were early concept for the game, then Pegasus had his Duelist Kingdom rules, then Kaiba made his own Battle City rules.

I'd say Dragon Ball's fairly well written, especially for a series so often made up on the fly. To this day, it still holds a position in my top ten Jump series list.

Dragon Ball's got the charm to make up for its lack of....I don't want to say "quality," but I can't think of the right word to use. And a good amount of charm can make up for a lack of other qualities.

[Sayo-chan]

Yu-Gi-Oh! is the furthest thing from well written. I don't think I've ever been so irritated reading a manga series before. It's far more inconsistent than Dragon Ball. I think I counted about 4-5 plot holes in Yugi's duel with Pegasus alone. The anime's even worse about it. They just ignore what's written on the cards half the time and make up their own rules. .-.

No, the real life cards ignored what the show had already done. There are very few actual plotholes in the series itself.

And the rule thing is covered, in universe. Duelist Kingdom operated under a totally different ruleset than Battle City.

First, Duelist Kingdom had no rules, or rather, very few and they were very inconsistent. The card game wasn't a thing yet, so there wasn't much to ignore (by approximately one year). There was no consistency. So you're correct that it operated differently, but that doesn't somehow make it immune to discrepancies or bad writing, because that's all it did: create discrepancies with bad writing. We often have established card effects in the anime/manga consistently broken, specifically when it came to burn decks, which if I recall correctly is post Duelist Kingdom. This gets a whole lot more inconsistent in GX (e.g. Judai and E-HERO, etc.). I'm not comparing it to the actual game, I'm comparing it to what I'm reading/watching. Yugi VS. Pegasus is a trainwreck. Takahashi made it so Pegasus could read every move. When Pegasus stole Kaiba's soul, he read his entire deck. He also does so to Yugi before they "switch", at which point the ordering of their cards were memorized. Yami and Yugi changed appearance to stop the Mind Sweep. That shouldn't have worked due to the fact they both had knowledge of their hand/deck. Pegasus merely had to subtract what was missing, which he had done earlier. Yugi also arbitrarily breaks the rules (e.g. he moves Dark Magician underneath the magical hat with his mind, to which Pegasus, the creator of the damn game, is surprised). Towards the end he also uses that shonen "heart of the cards" nonsense to get the card he needs to win, which is the furthest thing from good writing, and it's a very consistent trope. More over, that whole "power of friendship" thing to block the Millennium Eye is completely out of left field, it's a really bad shonen plot device. This series is riddled with wall bangers like this. Kaiba is practically the embodiment of this trope. Duelist Kingdom may be the absolute worst of it, but remember, it's not the first arc in the manga, it's in the middle. Characters also sometimes just disappear, like Hanasaki. He was probably forgotten about like Lunch was. Don't even get me started on the problems Mai causes.

Oh, and the anime shouldn't really even be mentioned due to what a travesty it is. The manga already has a fair amount of issues, but Toei for whatever reason, decided they were going to loosely follow the source material and heavily tone it down. Dragon Ball may have its issues, but the writing isn't nearly as dumb and melodramatic as it tends to be in Yu-Gi-Oh! If you want to see a shonen series done exceptionally well (better than pretty much everything), give Space Cobra a try.

The manga predates the card game, so the card game changed rules for the sake of a balanced game. Also, yeah, the rules of the game did change over time. The first Kaiba duels were early concept for the game, then Pegasus had his Duelist Kingdom rules, then Kaiba made his own Battle City rules.

Yeah I'm well aware of that. I don't see how or why either you thought it necessary to bring the card game up, as you noted, the rules were inconsistent regardless. The card game itself suffering plenty of flaws (the fact we have two ban lists shows how arbitrary they are), coinciding with an extremely toxic community (cheating at tournaments, raging and throwing people's cards on the ground, flipping tables, etc.), it made me stop playing awhile back, but I used to do the whole tournament shabang, so I'm fairly well versed in how it all works.

[VegettoEX]

Unless you're going to somehow draw very direct analogies, this conversation is teetering on no longer having anything to do with Dragon Ball and therefore needs to be pulled back on track or posts will be removed. Thanks.

[Zenkai]

What I like about BoG and RoF is that, while objectively bad,...

No, they are not "objectively bad".

[Sayo-chan]

What I like about BoG and RoF is that, while objectively bad,...

No, they are not "objectively bad".

While this is true, some of the artwork is objectively bad simply due to being off model. I haven't analyzed RoF, but BoG has a lot of bad art in it, so much that it reminds me of the 6th DBZ movie.

[Zenkai]

What I like about BoG and RoF is that, while objectively bad,...

No, they are not "objectively bad".

While this is true, some of the artwork is objectively bad simply due to being off model. I haven't analyzed RoF, but BoG has a lot of bad art in it, so much that it reminds me of the 6th DBZ movie.

I don't think being off-model makes the artwork bad. Things can be off-model and still looks great.