"Heroic" Goku or "Serious" Goku?

[90sDBZ]

Like someone said above, no matter which version you watch or read, Goku is heroic by doing selfless things like reviving Upa's father, sacrificing himself to save the earth twice, sparing the Ginyu Force and even Frieza when he had nothing to gain from doing so etc.. The dub didn't invent his heroic side, it simply put a greater emphasis on it and exaggerated it in a couple of cases.

What annoys me is when people do the opposite and exaggerate his flawed side to the point of ridiculousness for the sake of bashing the dub. Some claim he isn't even a hero at all, but a complete jerk who is an anti-hero and outright doesn't care about the lives of others. The recent Goku vs Superman Deathbattle 2 video even referred to Japanese Goku as "heartless", and even went as far as having him blow up a city and disregard the immediate safety of the earth for the sake of winning.

I'm actually a fan of both interpretations of Goku. The pure of heart, goofy, yet selfless hero in the early dubs is something I've always loved. I felt his honesty and purity in the early Funi and Ocean dubs made his dramatic arrivals on the battlefield all the more special and surreal. It served as a great contrast to the other guys like Vegeta and Piccolo, and just felt right that the most selfless one of all should be the one to topple the likes of Frieza. I've always loved the old Funi dub version of Goku's arrival in the Frieza fight in particular. The way he just shows up acting so calm and casual along with the dub music just gives it such a surreal feeling that's hard to describe. When he showed up, you instantly felt a sense of hope and safety that was absent in the Frieza fight up to that point.

And his Kaioken x20 speech in the old dub is probably the single most inspirational piece of dialogue in the whole series.

As for Japanese/Kai/BoG/RoF Goku, I find his somewhat selfish side to be fascinating and even kind of relatable. His speech to Beerus in BoG about being frustrated about how he got his God power is awesome. I mean here is this incredible power that's beyond his wildest dreams now at his fingertips, with the fate of the earth at stake, and he's just pissed off that he couldn't achieve it on his own. What a badass. And I also loved how cocky he acted during his first fight with Beerus.

And I also think that both versions of the character are great role models. Dub Goku because of his selflessness and purity, and Japanese Goku because even though he's flawed just like you and me, he well and truly aspires to greatness.

[ABED]

sparing the Ginyu Force and even Freeza

Goku is heroic by doing selfless things like reviving Upa's father, sacrificing himself to save the earth twice, sparing the Ginyu Force and even Freeza when he had nothing to gain from doing so

By helping Upa, he was helping a friend, it brought him satisfaction. There are gains beyond monetary, such as spiritual. By giving up his life to save the world, he saved his friends and family, I'd say those were huge gains for Goku. Sparing Freeza and the Ginyu Force however are things I wouldn't say are heroic.

That said, he does some reckless things such as letting Vegeta and Freeza live. But at least in those cases he had no intention of losing and as far as i can recall, he doesn't lose rematches. Goku is definitely a hero, and not an anti-hero. Being perfect isn't the requirement of heroism.

While I wouldn't have a problem if Goku was written originally more in the vein of Superman (whatever that really means given even Superman has a myriad of interpretations), I don't think he should be adapted as something other than what he is.

[fadeddreams5]

Not a fan of Japanese Goku, due to the voice, and never read the manga. As such, I'm completely clueless on the subject of Goku and what he's "supposed" to be like.

I prefer the dub incarnations of Goku, but dislike certain slang (?) and swear words he's been using since Kai (e.g. "SSJG can give you a major hang over"). I don't mind slang or profanity at all. It's just weird coming from him, but apparently this is what he does in the original version? idk. I don't really separate his dub incarnation from the Toei Goku either, but I suppose it's because both are more "heroic."

[ulisa]

I was introduced to FUNi-Dub Goku and I still like that interpretation but I also appreciate the Serious-Goku of recent dubs and of course the original Japanese. I suppose I like them both equally when it all boils down, just for different reasons. I take the same view point with other early dubbed anime such as Sailor Moon (Raye and Rei are very different but I like both)

I like heroic Goku for a lot of reasons people have already listed. While sparing the Ginyu Force may not have been the wisest move, from a moral stand point, I liked that action. Not wanting to kill someone that was defenseless was something I saw and admired a lot in this Goku. I tend to see more of this Goku in the movies and I don't really mind. I understand it may not be what the author originally intended but it wouldn't be the first time I preferred an interpretation over the original (i. e. I prefer early 80s Raphael from Ninja Turtles as opposed to the eternally angry Mirage version) I think they still keep some of the core aspects of his personality in tact

Serious Goku can also be a lot of fun. I don't mind the idea of someone having a lot of their motivation be personal as opposed to the "world good." This Goku still cares about people but is more focused on improving himself and protecting his loved ones. I suppose you could argue that Heroic Goku would seek out any threat that endangers the world while Serious Goku tends to be more concerned with what's happening in his personal bubble. There is much more room for flaws here and it shows.

If I had to choose though, I do think I may like Heroic Goku a teensy bit more. While Serious Goku does have more flaws, I think in some cases that works against him and oddly enough makes him more one dimensional to me. Serious Goku likes a challenge, like to push himself and fight. While that's all well and good, I think when I view Heroic Goku, I see more of a relationship between him and the other characters. That makes him more interesting to me. That being said though, again, I do feel I like them both, just for different reasons.

Yes one is the original artist's vision and one is an interpretation. But that doesn't mean we can't prefer an interpretation over an original if for us it seems to be more fitting.

[ABED]

Yes one is the original artist's vision and one is an interpretation. But that doesn't mean we can't prefer an interpretation over an original if for us it seems to be more fitting.

That doesn't seem like an interpretation as much as another writer changing someone else's story and characters.

While sparing the Ginyu Force may not have been the wisest move, from a moral stand point, I liked that action.

So, you believe there's a dichotomy between wisedom and morality?

[B]

I haven't seen much of Kai but from what I've heard Sean Is making Goku sound really rough and serious like. Now I know In the manga this is typical of him and that he swears a lot

No, it is not typical for Goku to sound "rough" or "serious like". If anything, that is the #1 problem with Sean Schemmel; he cannot for the life of him portray an angry Goku that stays true to his dumb, childish nature. Perhaps part of it is the script adaptation. If FUNimation would throw some "ain'ts" around or dropped a few "g's" at the end of -ing words, he'd feel a little more like Goku.

The very nature of this thread is founded on a weird misconception...

[theoriginalbilis]

Oh, Goku's definitely a heroic character; he's just a different type of hero than what FUNi and Toei have portrayed him as in the past. He's a lot more passive; the threat has to come to him or his family before he acts against it, either that or he stumbles along the threat while in pursuit of something else, like during the various Dragon Ball hunts. He doesn't "patrol" against evil the way say... Great Saiyaman would.

[zcherub]

There is no "heroic" Goku as referred to in this thread. What's really being asked is "do you prefer what was shat out after Funi screwed the pooch with their hack job "dub" designed solely to pander to the lowest common denominator, or do you prefer the way Toriyama wrote the character?"

[VegettoEX]

There is no "heroic" Goku as referred to in this thread. What's really being asked is "do you prefer what was shat out after Funi screwed the pooch with their hack job "dub" designed solely to pander to the lowest common denominator, or do you prefer the way Toriyama wrote the character?"

For starters, this really is not an appropriate response. You can find a better way to say what you want to say.

Additionally, there absolutely is a discussion to be had here completely independent of FUNimation's English dub. Toriyama has gone on record as specifically saying how he wasn't happy with the "heroic" Goku as portrayed in the anime (most likely/specifically referring to the films):

There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

Toriyama also said similar things many years later:

At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

So while it's absolutely a point to make about FUNimation's re-exaggeration of the character, to say that it's the only other side of this conversation is, quite honestly, rather ignorant. Toriyama's initial comments come at a point longer before Sean Schemmel was ever the voice of the character, and that change in characterization is quite apparent just from watching the movies in Japanese.

[zcherub]

to say that it's the only other side of this conversation is, quite honestly, rather ignorant.

1. The original poster was clearly referring to Funimation's "version" of the character & not the Son that was portrayed in the movies (which was also bad)

2. I respect your contributions both here & on the dbz sub reddit, but if you're comfortable throwing around labels like "ignorant" then you certainly won't mind me plainly stating that you're flat out wrong and why (when it comes to asserting that Funi's Goku is worth discussing as a legitimate version of the character).

3. You're wrong. Allow me to explain... I would concede that even Goku as he appeared in DB Evolution is a legitimate version of the character (has nothing to with liking/disliking said version). Why? Because Evolution was an original creative work based on an existing story.

Funimation's Goku was conceived by literally taking an exact copy of someone else's original work & unilaterally changing the dialogue, motivation & personality of the main character to something they felt was more marketable.

To put that into perspective for you, that would be like me taking a copy Moby Dick, putting white out over Ahab's dialogue, writing over it with my own dialogue that implies Moby Dick had never harmed Ahab, but that he causes tsunamis that destroy villages & that Ahab feels an altruistic duty to stop him, then Xeroxing that and selling it to you as the classic novel, Moby Dick by Herman Melville.

Obvious hyperbole, but that is a fair comparison to what Funi did with Goku/DB.

Had Funi MADE their own version of DB, there would be a discussion to be had about their Goku being a legitimate version. But they didn't - instead they carbon copied someone else's work, then steamrolled the original dialogue with drivel they thought little boys in NA would more readily buy.

[VegettoEX]

Don't confuse my own usage of "ignorant" with the typical internet usage of the word. I'm not saying that you're a poopy head that vomits testicles and that your mom is a nincompoop. I mean literally what I said: to state or infer that a discussion of "heroic Goku" extends solely to FUNimation's English dub (or, rather, anything outside of Toei themselves and exclusively outside of Toei themselves) shows a lack of a greater understanding of the character and a lack of greater familiarity with the source material. That's only a negative insofar as it means you can't have as comprehensive a conversation as someone that does have that familiarity.

That all being said...

I really don't understand your response here to me at all. I've very plainly and clearly stated that I 100% agree that FUNimation's adaptation of the character exaggerates Goku to sometimes extreme degrees and at points he no longer resembles the character as originally written from the same source material he's being adapted from.

My point on top of that (what I said before and what I stick with here) is that it's not without basis when compared to the Japanese productions, either. Exaggeration was made in the Dragon Ball Z TV series (everything from Nozawa's ad-libbing of the character's accent to straight-up dialog embellishments), and then yet again in the films (with Takao Koyama at the helm for scripting writing motivations for Goku that he did not showcase in the manga).

I agree with you. Too much was done in 1999-2003 specifically that changed who Goku was in FUNimation's English dub. It was far more than ever was done in Japanese. Yes. I agree. I lived through this. I complained about it back then. I still complain about it now. It's still relevant to note. Yes, yes, yes. I'm with you.

But I also stand by the fact that it's almost irresponsible to have that conversation without noting some of the changes in Japanese, as well. A lot of the "I must save my planet!!!!!!!1111~" comments people hold onto and point out in FUNimation's English dub come directly from Takao Koyama's original Japanese scripts in the films. That basis is there. To ignore it would be, yes, ignorant. There is not just "Toriyama Goku" and "FUNimation 1999 Goku" (or, as you stated, "do you prefer what was shat out" --> "do you prefer the way Toriyama wrote"); there is an additional spectrum within there that is 100% relevant to the conversation and should not be left out to form these two arbitrary sides of the argument.

[Thanos]

It seems quite basic to me--"Serious" Goku represents an accurate, true-to-source depiction of the character. Not only that, but it's a more (dare I use this word in reference to Dragon Ball!?) realistic character. From a Western fiction perspective, one might see Goku as not such a good guy. But in all honesty, he's probably saintly compared to most of humanity. What human being hasn't made a million mistakes and poor decisions they regret? He's a flawed guy who isn't so black and white, does some shitty things and some pretty cool things, and in the final analysis would probably be labeled a pretty good guy. I think that's great--that description fits most people I know.

Whereas "Heroic" Goku fits an archetype that's a dime a dozen. 99.9% of Western good vs. evil fiction that I know of has a main character like this. Not only that, but it's inaccurate to the source material. It's a no-brainer.

[zcherub]

VegettoEX - Perhaps I tried to address too many points at once & gave you the impression that the entirety of the thoughts in my post were directed at you. Not my intent, & I apologize for any confusion.

1. I primarily addressed Funimation's missteps because that is primarily what the topic creator was addressing. I completely agree that Toei is similarly guilty, I was just under the impression that that's not the discussion we were having here based on what started us off.

2. Kind of a side point, but I'd contend that Toei's actions were less unsettling due to their movies being original works that they created. That's not to say I care for their "Goku", but it's their story to tell, and they left Toriyama's story (relatively) in tact when re-telling HIS story. Funi can't say the same.

To my knowledge (I'm admittedly unfamiliar with other regions' dubs), there is no single WORSE example of screwing with the source material than Funimation's hack job. That said, if Funimation released a completely original DB movie that THEY WROTE in which Goku flies in with a red cape & "S" on his chest, THEN you could have a legitimate discussion about their version, because it IS theirs, like Toei's.

When they warp what was already written to market it, there's no discussion to be had about "versions". They didn't create a new iteration of the character, they just did a piss poor job dubbing what's not theirs.

[90sDBZ]

I keep seeing people talk about "legitimate" versions of the character. As far as I'm aware, neither Toei or Toriyama ever set out specific guidelines for a company to abide by when they licensed the story for adaptation. We know for a fact that Toei's first priority has always been making money, which they were able to make legitimately through allowing Funimation to do whatever they wanted.

People like to split hairs when it comes to the morality of adaptations. As far as I'm concerned, If legal permission is given by the original author, whether directly or indirectly, it counts as a legitimate version. I mean It's not as if Funimation illegally got a hold of the show and changed it against Toei's or Toriyama's protests. If anything Toei have encouraged Funi's practices, like how they told them Kai would instead be Z Kai, despite it being advertised as "the director's cut" of the Author's original story which was simply titled Dragonball. From what I've read, Toei were even allowing Funimation the chance to do a Z-style dub for Kai until Chris Sabat fought for a dub closer to the original.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It wasnt Funi who said "Lets make it Z Kai". Toei knew people in markets where Dragon Ball (Non Z) was beloved would get confused if Kai didnt cover the first half of the manga so they added Z to it. Also it was Justin Cook or at least he had some credit along with Sabat for Funimation simply not taking the audio from Z and putting it over the Kai footage.

[gohann]

Goku hasn't been a good character since the Cell saga at the earliest, so I'd have to go with "heroic".