Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ahill1]

Piccolo Daimao ( young ): 260
Krillin ( 23rd Budokai ): 195
Yamcha ( 23rd Budokai ): 170
Cyborg Tao: 210

But Piccolo Daimao ( young ) can't be 260; Ten Shin Han ( 23rd Budokai ) is stronger than Piccolo Daimao ( young ), unless Ten lost power in these 5 years.

Tenshinhan ( 23rd TB ) 220
Piccolo Daimao ( young ) 200
Krillin ( 23rd TB ) 180
Yamcha ( 23rd TB ) 166

Looks better, don't you think?

[RandomGuy96]

210 works just fine. If we assume Tenshinhan is 240 there the gap will be almost exactly the same has Vegeta and KK Goku.

Vegeta didn't defeat KK Goku with one blow.

Anyway, without any ado, some BOG and FNF lists.

Spoiler:

Buu arc
For context:

Vegetto: 15,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 750,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 3,000,000,000,000
(unseen)

Super Majin Buu: 50,000,000,000
--Gohan and the others absorbed: 139,300,000,000

Gohan: 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 5,600,000,000
After Z Sword training: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
--Ultimate: 85,000,000,000

Gotenks:
--Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 60,000,000,000

Goku: 75,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 3,750,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 7,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 30,000,000,000

Pure Majin Buu: 32,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed: 55,000,000,000

Fat Majin Buu: 12,000,000,000
--Splitting: 50,000,000,000
---Good Buu: 18,000,000,000
---Pure Buu: 32,000,000,000

Mister Buu: 26,000,000,000

(I guess should I explain two things. One, Vegetto is at that level because that's just how it scaled with my Potara multiplier. Two, I go with a lower SS3 boost for fusions, to fit certain implications in. I'm thinking about doing some revisions, e.g. I think I have SS Gotenks and Fat Buu too low, and the numbers for the Buus aren't "clean" enough, but that's irrelevant right now)

Battle of Gods:
Whis: 10,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 6,500,000,000,000
-vs SS3 Goku: 65,000,000,000
-vs Z-gang: 130,000,000,000
-vs Godku: 4,500,000,000,000

Goku: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 34,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan God: 4,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
---Enraged: 51,000,000,000

(Mostly chosen for neatness. Godku and Beerus are well above SS3 Vegetto, as implied by Goku's statement that a fusion of him and Vegeta couldn't beat Beerus (what about a fusion with Gohan?). Beerus uses 1% of his power to smack down Goku and 2% to smack down Gohan and the others, putting him at about SS3 Gotenks-tier and Buuhan-tier respectively on those occasions. He uses about 70% on Godku. I didn't bother listing levels for Beerus [vs enraged Vegeta], base Goku [post-God], or SS Goku [post-GOD], since those are such arbitrary and unimportant bits. Especially Beerus's percentage against Vegeta, given that he goes from as weak as a normal human (to smack Bulma) to just strong enough to non-lethally KO SS2 Vegeta (but still far below enraged SS2 Vegeta) to being strong enough to tank enraged Vegeta's Galick Gun, all in the span of about 30 seconds.)

Spoiler:

The filler...
Whis: 10,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 6,500,000,000,000

The "protagonists"...
Goku: 100,000,000,000
--SSGSS: 5,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000,000
--SSGSS: 5,000,000,000,000

(My numbers for these two are arbitrary and based on what looks neat, even if they fit just fine. Goku's god base or whatever is x1,000 stronger than his base EOZ self, and his SSGSS form is x50 stronger than that (the gap between the two levels was implied to be massive). Vegeta is equally as strong. If they fought together, they could give Beerus a really rough time, as stated by Whis.)

Freeza:
-1st form: 5,300,000,000
-True form: 80,000,000,000
-Golden form: 5,600,000,000,000
--Shit-stomped: 2,800,000,000,000

(Same story with Freeza here. His 1st form is just his original 1st form x 10,000. It doesn't really need to be any higher; he just needs to be stronger than SS Gohan, and even that's just because of a statement by Piccolo. His true form is just his original true form (bar the bulked-up transformation) x 1,000. His Golden form is that x 70, being strong enough to gain a temporary advantage over Goku, but not strong enough to quickly kill him, or defeat Beerus. When he's tired out, he's not strong enough to even budge SSGSS Goku, but firmly believes that base Vegeta has no chance against him.)

The true villain...
Sorbet: 50
--Laser: 5,000,000,000,000
Shisami: 30,000
--vs Piccolo: 1,800,000,000
Tagoma: 25,000

(Don't underestimate the ring)

and the worthless Jobber Squad...
Gohan: 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000
Piccolo: 1,500,000,000
Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,800,000
Roshi: 139
-BUFF: 2,085

I firmly believe that my other numbers were more accurate.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm so curious... what does "faff" stand for?

[ZombieVito]

210 works just fine. If we assume Tenshinhan is 240 there the gap will be almost exactly the same has Vegeta and KK Goku.

Vegeta didn't defeat KK Goku with one blow.

Anyway, without any ado, some BOG and FNF lists.

Spoiler:

Buu arc
For context:

Vegetto: 15,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 750,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 3,000,000,000,000
(unseen)

Super Majin Buu: 50,000,000,000
--Gohan and the others absorbed: 139,300,000,000

Gohan: 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 5,600,000,000
After Z Sword training: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
--Ultimate: 85,000,000,000

Gotenks:
--Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 60,000,000,000

Goku: 75,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 3,750,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 7,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 30,000,000,000

Pure Majin Buu: 32,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed: 55,000,000,000

Fat Majin Buu: 12,000,000,000
--Splitting: 50,000,000,000
---Good Buu: 18,000,000,000
---Pure Buu: 32,000,000,000

Mister Buu: 26,000,000,000

(I guess should I explain two things. One, Vegetto is at that level because that's just how it scaled with my Potara multiplier. Two, I go with a lower SS3 boost for fusions, to fit certain implications in. I'm thinking about doing some revisions, e.g. I think I have SS Gotenks and Fat Buu too low, and the numbers for the Buus aren't "clean" enough, but that's irrelevant right now)

Battle of Gods:
Whis: 10,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 6,500,000,000,000
-vs SS3 Goku: 65,000,000,000
-vs Z-gang: 130,000,000,000
-vs Godku: 4,500,000,000,000

Goku: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 34,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan God: 4,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
---Enraged: 51,000,000,000

(Mostly chosen for neatness. Godku and Beerus are well above SS3 Vegetto, as implied by Goku's statement that a fusion of him and Vegeta couldn't beat Beerus (what about a fusion with Gohan?). Beerus uses 1% of his power to smack down Goku and 2% to smack down Gohan and the others, putting him at about SS3 Gotenks-tier and Buuhan-tier respectively on those occasions. He uses about 70% on Godku. I didn't bother listing levels for Beerus [vs enraged Vegeta], base Goku [post-God], or SS Goku [post-GOD], since those are such arbitrary and unimportant bits. Especially Beerus's percentage against Vegeta, given that he goes from as weak as a normal human (to smack Bulma) to just strong enough to non-lethally KO SS2 Vegeta (but still far below enraged SS2 Vegeta) to being strong enough to tank enraged Vegeta's Galick Gun, all in the span of about 30 seconds.)

Spoiler:

The filler...
Whis: 10,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 6,500,000,000,000

The "protagonists"...
Goku: 100,000,000,000
--SSGSS: 5,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000,000
--SSGSS: 5,000,000,000,000

(My numbers for these two are arbitrary and based on what looks neat, even if they fit just fine. Goku's god base or whatever is x1,000 stronger than his base EOZ self, and his SSGSS form is x50 stronger than that (the gap between the two levels was implied to be massive). Vegeta is equally as strong. If they fought together, they could give Beerus a really rough time, as stated by Whis.)

Freeza:
-1st form: 5,300,000,000
-True form: 80,000,000,000
-Golden form: 5,600,000,000,000
--Shit-stomped: 2,800,000,000,000

(Same story with Freeza here. His 1st form is just his original 1st form x 10,000. It doesn't really need to be any higher; he just needs to be stronger than SS Gohan, and even that's just because of a statement by Piccolo. His true form is just his original true form (bar the bulked-up transformation) x 1,000. His Golden form is that x 70, being strong enough to gain a temporary advantage over Goku, but not strong enough to quickly kill him, or defeat Beerus. When he's tired out, he's not strong enough to even budge SSGSS Goku, but firmly believes that base Vegeta has no chance against him.)

The true villain...
Sorbet: 50
--Laser: 5,000,000,000,000
Shisami: 30,000
--vs Piccolo: 1,800,000,000
Tagoma: 25,000

(Don't underestimate the ring)

and the worthless Jobber Squad...
Gohan: 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000
Piccolo: 1,500,000,000
Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,800,000
Roshi: 139
-BUFF: 2,085

I firmly believe that my other numbers were more accurate.

You could say his ki dropped because he got scared or nervous. Easy really.

On the list.

Overall is a good one but I do have some points to make:

a) I feel the gap between SSJ3 Vegetto and Godku should be a little bit bigger.
b) I just can't see Base Godku being 50 times weaker after seeing how he fought against Beerus.
c) According to AT Roshi just passes the day reading dirty mags and watching TV shows. I wouldn't put him any higher than is official 180 BP when buffed.
d) Any particular reason you have Shisami stronger than Tagoma?
e) No BP for Jaco?
f) I know we have been at this a lot before but at that gap I really doubt Piccolo would be able to react the way he did against Shisami's blows. He managed to block all of them and Shisami only hit him by a sneak attack and by putting him out of balance.

[RandomGuy96]

210 works just fine. If we assume Tenshinhan is 240 there the gap will be almost exactly the same has Vegeta and KK Goku.

Vegeta didn't defeat KK Goku with one blow.

Anyway, without any ado, some BOG and FNF lists.

Spoiler:

Buu arc
For context:

Vegetto: 15,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 750,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 3,000,000,000,000
(unseen)

Super Majin Buu: 50,000,000,000
--Gohan and the others absorbed: 139,300,000,000

Gohan: 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 5,600,000,000
After Z Sword training: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 4,250,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
--Ultimate: 85,000,000,000

Gotenks:
--Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 60,000,000,000

Goku: 75,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 3,750,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 7,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 30,000,000,000

Pure Majin Buu: 32,000,000,000
--South Kaioshin absorbed: 55,000,000,000

Fat Majin Buu: 12,000,000,000
--Splitting: 50,000,000,000
---Good Buu: 18,000,000,000
---Pure Buu: 32,000,000,000

Mister Buu: 26,000,000,000

(I guess should I explain two things. One, Vegetto is at that level because that's just how it scaled with my Potara multiplier. Two, I go with a lower SS3 boost for fusions, to fit certain implications in. I'm thinking about doing some revisions, e.g. I think I have SS Gotenks and Fat Buu too low, and the numbers for the Buus aren't "clean" enough, but that's irrelevant right now)

Battle of Gods:
Whis: 10,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 6,500,000,000,000
-vs SS3 Goku: 65,000,000,000
-vs Z-gang: 130,000,000,000
-vs Godku: 4,500,000,000,000

Goku: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 3: 34,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan God: 4,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 85,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2: 8,500,000,000
---Enraged: 51,000,000,000

(Mostly chosen for neatness. Godku and Beerus are well above SS3 Vegetto, as implied by Goku's statement that a fusion of him and Vegeta couldn't beat Beerus (what about a fusion with Gohan?). Beerus uses 1% of his power to smack down Goku and 2% to smack down Gohan and the others, putting him at about SS3 Gotenks-tier and Buuhan-tier respectively on those occasions. He uses about 70% on Godku. I didn't bother listing levels for Beerus [vs enraged Vegeta], base Goku [post-God], or SS Goku [post-GOD], since those are such arbitrary and unimportant bits. Especially Beerus's percentage against Vegeta, given that he goes from as weak as a normal human (to smack Bulma) to just strong enough to non-lethally KO SS2 Vegeta (but still far below enraged SS2 Vegeta) to being strong enough to tank enraged Vegeta's Galick Gun, all in the span of about 30 seconds.)

Spoiler:

The filler...
Whis: 10,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 6,500,000,000,000

The "protagonists"...
Goku: 100,000,000,000
--SSGSS: 5,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000,000
--SSGSS: 5,000,000,000,000

(My numbers for these two are arbitrary and based on what looks neat, even if they fit just fine. Goku's god base or whatever is x1,000 stronger than his base EOZ self, and his SSGSS form is x50 stronger than that (the gap between the two levels was implied to be massive). Vegeta is equally as strong. If they fought together, they could give Beerus a really rough time, as stated by Whis.)

Freeza:
-1st form: 5,300,000,000
-True form: 80,000,000,000
-Golden form: 5,600,000,000,000
--Shit-stomped: 2,800,000,000,000

(Same story with Freeza here. His 1st form is just his original 1st form x 10,000. It doesn't really need to be any higher; he just needs to be stronger than SS Gohan, and even that's just because of a statement by Piccolo. His true form is just his original true form (bar the bulked-up transformation) x 1,000. His Golden form is that x 70, being strong enough to gain a temporary advantage over Goku, but not strong enough to quickly kill him, or defeat Beerus. When he's tired out, he's not strong enough to even budge SSGSS Goku, but firmly believes that base Vegeta has no chance against him.)

The true villain...
Sorbet: 50
--Laser: 5,000,000,000,000
Shisami: 30,000
--vs Piccolo: 1,800,000,000
Tagoma: 25,000

(Don't underestimate the ring)

and the worthless Jobber Squad...
Gohan: 56,000,000
--Super Saiyan: 2,800,000,000
Piccolo: 1,500,000,000
Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,800,000
Roshi: 139
-BUFF: 2,085

I firmly believe that my other numbers were more accurate.

You could say his ki dropped because he got scared or nervous. Easy really.

On the list.

Overall is a good one but I do have some points to make:

a) I feel the gap between SSJ3 Vegetto and Godku should be a little bit bigger.
b) I just can't see Base Godku being 50 times weaker after seeing how he fought against Beerus.
c) According to AT Roshi just passes the day reading dirty mags and watching TV shows. I wouldn't put him any higher than is official 180 BP when buffed.
d) Any particular reason you have Shisami stronger than Tagoma?
e) No BP for Jaco?
f) I know we have been at this a lot before but at that gap I really doubt Piccolo would be able to react the way he did against Shisami's blows. He managed to block all of them and Shisami only hit him by a sneak attack and by putting him out of balance.

A. I don't see any reason to make it bigger.
B. Base Godku in BOG is not the same as base Godku in faff. There needs to be a huge gap between base Goku and SSGSS Goku, much bigger than what BOG showed. As I said: an exhausted Golden Freeza, who couldn't even budge a worn-out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face, still laughed at the idea that base Vegeta would have any chance against him. Even though he knows base Vegeta = base Goku. Vegeta transformed seemingly to prove him wrong.
C. I mostly put him that high because I had his buff form as a x15 boost (based on 21st Budokai Roshi blowing up the moon), and assumed BOG Roshi was just regular Roshi except with his buff form "mastered".
D. I just gave him an equal BP to monster Zarbon, because they're both big and bulky.
E. Nope. As a gag character he's more or less impossible to pin down.
F. He got hit several times, actually, and wasn't able to hurt Shisami in turn. It was very one-sided; I think I actually have the gap too low if anything, but Shisami still needs to be weak enough to go down to one good gut punch from SS Gohan.

[Doctor.]

Freeza can't sense Ki though, and his supposition was proven incorrect the moment Base Vegeta deflected one of his blasts.

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza can't sense Ki though, and his supposition was proven incorrect the moment Base Vegeta deflected one of his blasts.

He saw base Vegeta fight base Goku, and he knows roughly how strong base Goku is. He should be able to tell the difference between "I'm stronger than this guy" and "I can punch this guy all day and literally nothing would happen". On top of that, Vegeta's response to that threat was to transform, not to kick him around in base. I also don't know if he still can't sense ki in this movie, considering that he doesn't wear a scouter anymore.

[ZombieVito]

Shisami only hit Piccolo twice and he wasn't that hurt by them. I just don't see it.

If they were clean hits by having a clear advantage I would conceded but they weren't.

[RandomGuy96]

Shisami only hit Piccolo twice and he wasn't that hurt by them. I just don't see it.

If they were clean hits by having a clear advantage I would conceded but they weren't.

They were clean hits. Shisami didn't take Piccolo by surprise, he outmaneuvered him with far superior speed. You may as well call every hit a surprise hit by this logic.

I'm so curious... what does "faff" stand for?

The abbreviation for the movie is FNF. Some people corrupt that into "faff", which is slang for "a waste of time".

[ahill1]

Tenshinhan ( 23rd TB ) >> Piccolo Daimao ( young )

[ZombieVito]

Tenshinhan ( 23rd TB ) >> Piccolo Daimao ( young )

In what universe is ~240 >> 260?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I personally agree with ahill1. Tenshinhan sensed Goku and Piccolo Daimao's Ki and was still confident in taking on Goku at the 23rd. Perhaps Tenshinhan was lazy between the 23rd and BoZ.

[Truhan]

Would it be possible to tinker with battle powers from guidebooks, so far as to make sense out of them, and introduce a relationship that accommodates normal discourse? It's just that power increases become arbitrary when we don't have a set pattern or rule, so I think that's our first task. Let me give you an example:

Let's assume Gohan's Masenko against Nappa was the extent of his full power at 2.800. The guidebook says that he was 14.000 against Guldo, so he had 5 times the increase from his potential, and then he went through a Zenkai that put him above Ginyu in Goku's body. The latter was around 23.000, and so doubling the amount that Gohan had puts him at 28.000, which is 10 times more than his full power Masenko. The pattern has been and could be:

Gohan's Masenko -- * 5 --> Potential Unlocked -- * 2 --> First Zenkai -- * 5 --> Increase before Freeza -- * 2 --> Zenkai post-Freeza -- * 5 --> Training before Androids -- * 2 --
--> First Time SSJ -- * 5 --> Post-RoSaT

I'm not saying that the pattern or rhythm needs to be linear and repeat itself every two steps, but you get the idea: making the characters' batte powers represent a familiar number to them. Piccolo could have 3.600 against Nappa instead, so that he was 0,3 % of his battle power against Freeza (1.200.000, for example). Dividing it in more instances, we would get:

Piccolo Daimao -- / 0.6 --> Piccolo against Raditz -- * 9 --> Piccolo against Nappa -- * 20 --> Kaiosama training -- / 0.06 --> Piccolo against Freeza -- * 20 --> Trunks' arrival -- * 5 --> Training before Androids

Which is an irregular rhythm than ends up in familiar numbers nonetheless.

[ahill1]

Good idea Truhan; but let's see

Piccolo against raditz 408
Piccolo against nappa 3,600 (x9) - 'kay
Piccolo Kaiosama training 7,200 (x2) very low
Piccolo against freeza 120,000 (/0.06) very low
Piccolo before arrival trunks 240,000 very low

I think that it would be better

Piccolo (vs raditz) 408
Piccolo (vs nappa) 3,600 --- x9
Piccolo (kaiosama training) 120,000 --- x33
Piccolo (vs Freeza) 1,200,000 --- x10
Piccolo (trunks arrival) 2,400,000 --- x2

As you can see the increases are not always linear

[Truhan]

Good idea Truhan; but let's see

Piccolo against raditz 408
Piccolo against nappa 3,600 (x9) - 'kay
Piccolo Kaiosama training 7,200 (x2) very low
Piccolo against freeza 120,000 (/0.06) very low
Piccolo before arrival trunks 240,000 very low

I think that it would be better

Piccolo (vs raditz) 408
Piccolo (vs nappa) 3,600 --- x9
Piccolo (kaiosama training) 120,000 --- x33
Piccolo (vs Freeza) 1,200,000 --- x10
Piccolo (trunks arrival) 2,400,000 --- x2

As you can see the increases are not always linear

I've changed the values, because I made a mistake. Consider the new ones that I've made, because they kinda work. Piccolo would share Gohan's multiplier when training with Goku All in all, it allows us to say such things as: "6% the increase"; "twice the increase"; "5 times more than him"; etc.

[Doctor.]

Tenshinhan ( 23rd TB ) >> Piccolo Daimao ( young )

In what universe is ~240 >> 260?

In the universe the Daizenshuu battle powers are not to be trusted. Piccolo Daimao being superior to 23rd TB Tenshinhan, let alone his beginning of Z incarnation, is completely nonsensical when Goku had improved every aspect of his fighting ability except speed, and Tenshinhan was still equivalent to him.

[Hugo Boss]

Tenshinhan sensed Goku and Piccolo Daimao's Ki and was still confident in taking on Goku at the 23rd.

Wait. Did Tenshinhan know how to sense ki at that moment? He could be gauging Goku by his movements.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Wait. Did Tenshinhan know how to sense ki at that moment? He could be gauging Goku by his movements.

I think he did, based on this quote:

Chapter: 156, P13.1-5
Context: still talking about Piccolo's full power
Tenshinhan: “A-an absolutely incredible ki!”
Piccolo: “Haah…Are you ready?”
Goku: “That’s my line. Now I can beat you up with all I’ve got”
Piccolo: “So you’re saying you weren’t using your full power either? Don’t spew such nonsense”
Goku: “You wanna try me?”

[ahill1]

Show me your numbers to:

Vegeta (trunks arc)?
Piccolo (trunks arc)?

I currently have:
Vegeta (arrival of trunks) 4,500,000
Piccolo (arrival of trunks) 4,200,000

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku (Namek saga) (ref.) - 5,000,000

Piccolo (Trunks saga) - 7,200,000
Vegeta (Trunks saga) - 7,500,000