FUNi's S1 FAQ is shit and here is why (56k warning):

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:36 pm

So, I didn't like the explanation FUNi gave. Why?

A.) The pics struck me as looking...wrong.

B.) Overscan? That's the best they could come up with? An X factor which varies from setup to setup? Wow.

Anyway, I grabbed my corresponding DragonBox disc and pulled the screen in question. Adjusted for 4:3 display, it is:

Now, here's FUNi's take on a 4:3 shot (blown up to 640x480, same as the above):

Doesn't work, does it? I overlaid the two in photoshop and transformed FUNi's pic so it perfectly synched the Toei DragonBox stillframe:

It bugged me that FUNi's pic seemed wider than Toei's, but that might be attributed to FUNimation's alterations. If someone has another explanation, chime in. While not captured here, the only other real differences in the two were that FUNi's shot protruded below the Toei shot by approximately the same amount that Toei's extends above FUNi's. No big. The other difference is just that Toei captured a greater portion of the original frame on the sides.

Like so:

Boring as fuck so far, no? Okay, here's the interesting part.

Overscan. FUNi is full of shit.

FUNi's rendition of overscan:

Oh noes! Shit is lost! 4:3 is the inferior!!1?

Or does FUNi just not know how to frame a shot to save their ass?

"But Corey, we're gaining image!" you say. To that I can only say this (and pardon this being improvised), an image is worth 1000 words.

Here is FUNi's image of the original film frame:

Now, I won't faux-16:9 it (and FUNi's site is down) but since they're keeping the full horzontal image, here's what I did. I took FUNi's full film frame, cut it down to 90% horizontally (accounting for 10% overscan on the sides, since that will happen on any television that would have overscanned a 4:3 image on all sides), and overlaid the DragonBox screenshot and scaled it. Now, this doesn't account for the cropping of course to make it 16:9 but look at the whopping amount you gain after accounting for the horizontal overscan:

I dunno about you, but I think it was VERY worth it to lose all that they cropped to gain that whopping...10 pixels. I mean, shit, we might have missed out on how DragonBall Z was meant to be seen.

Check it out. If my logic lacks anywhere, let me know. Me? I will maintain my 'They're full of shit and think we're idiots' theory unless someone wants to enlighten me because I will fully admit if I fucked up somewhere.

Danke,
Corey

Edit: I just wanted to note, FUNi took the cheap way out on this. Instead of fixing the frame damage, they cropped it out to 'remaster' the series and built this horrible '16:9' idea around that. Bullshit? Yes, yes it is.

Mystery Person X · Post by **Mystery Person X** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:03 pm

(Note: I've lurked here for a while, and have been discussing the DBZ widescreen issue quite a lot on other forums. I still intend to mainly just lurk here, but I finally created an account for the sake of replying to this post. Hi!

)

It amuses me greatly that accounting for overscan on the left and right reveals that the widescreen version adds almost nothing compared to the 4:3 version. I suspected that this might be the case; thanks for proving it with your image comparison! The whole widescreen idea of FUNi's was a waste of effort. Great post!

For the sake of completion (and because FUNi's comparison site is currently working fine for me), here's the 4:3 version and 16:9 version overlaid:

By my calculation, 7.65% of the 4:3 image is missing in the 16:9 version.

Is there any chance you could take screencaps from the R2 DVDs of the Gregory image and the Gohan's face image? I'd love to be able to do comparisons for those as well - particularly the latter, since comparing to FUNi's own 4:3 image suggests that much more is missing than in the above example. (This inconsistency is why I'm still very unwilling to jump on the "oh, there isn't that much missing" bandwagon just yet.)

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:30 pm

Hm, I noticed I made a mistake. It appears that I forgot to account for overscan loss of 10% on the 4:3 image in the last image in my post. Here's a more accurate version:

More of a gain (72 pixels by my calulations), and I'm willing to admit that was my mistake. It still doesn't explain why FUNi is using an explanation for the Widescreen decision that isn't even a constant, and why FUNi is framing the shots in a manner that serves only to avoid having to fix the damage on their film master (which, if the remastering they had done avoided the main points that were damaged...what exactly did they fix?)

Welcome to DaizEX though, and thanks for your reply.

-Corey

Edit: Wait...if you're saying we lose 7.65% of the 4:3 image in the 16:9 incarnation...and we only gain 10% in the 16:9 version...that means we get a net gain of 2.35%? Wow. Amazing >_>;;

Mystery Person X · Post by **Mystery Person X** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:39 pm

Well, yeah, if you account for the overscan of the 4:3 version then there's a gain... but it's still image that was there in the 4:3 version anyway. They could just as easily have presented it on DVD in 4:3 but underscanned slightly, with a thin black border on all four sides, and the same extra image would be present without a need to crop anything. The widescreen transfer is still pointless.

Not to be too pushy, but what about those other two screencaps? XD I'd really like to see an actual R2 screencap of the Gohan's face shot, since the only one posted here so far (that I've noticed) is from that other guy's bootleg DVD.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:41 pm

Mystery Person X wrote:Not to be too pushy, but what about those other two screencaps? XD I'd really like to see an actual R2 screencap of the Gohan's face shot, since the only one posted here so far (that I've noticed) is from that other guy's bootleg DVD.

Give me episodes, approximate times if possible, and sure. I'll pull them. I just have a hormonal girlfriend who is vying for my attention

-Corey

Mystery Person X · Post by **Mystery Person X** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:49 pm

Well, there's no hurry. I'm not asking you to do it right now or anything =)

I'm pretty sure that the first of the two, with just Gregory, is from the very same scene as the screencap you took for this thread.

I don't know about the other shot, and I can't check since I don't actually own DBZ in any form. (Well, I have the manga.) I'll see if I can root through discussion and find out the episode number.

fps_anth · Post by **fps_anth** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:57 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:I just have a hormonal girlfriend who is vying for my attention

-Corey

LOL.

After looking at the screens above, I think that we can now agree that there is something that we shall always want on DVD. Re-mastered footage of "FUNi's image of the original film frame". Damn, I didn't know that they actually cut footage out of the bottom of the Dragon Box!

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:00 pm

fps_anth wrote:After looking at the screens above, I think that we can now agree that there is something that we shall always want on DVD. Re-mastered footage of "FUNi's image of the original film frame". Damn, I didn't know that they actually cut footage out of the bottom of the Dragon Box!

Har har ;p

-Corey

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:39 pm

Nice job on those screens Corey; as usual, I think Funimation's purposefully misleading people without out-right lieing to them. I think others have already touched on this...

Funimation claims that we'll be receiving more picture than 4:3, because the tops and the bottoms of the film would have to be cropped regardless of what format they released it in, so by releasing it in wide screen they say they're doing us a favor.

What they're not saying is that cropping the top and the bottom of the film isn't necessary, if they would simply restore the film properly and fix the damage (or better yet, just get Toei's remastered version). So from one point of view, we are getting more from this widescreen release, because even if Funimation did release it in it's native 4:3 format, the picture would still be zoomed in and cropped to cut out the damaged parts of the film.

Now personally I don't even care that much; I think the wide screen version is going to look slick, and I'm willing to accept a bit of picture cropping. I just wish Funimation would just come clean about it and admit that cropping the film wasn't a neccessity, just a convienant short cut.

Eclipse · Post by **Eclipse** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:39 pm

I still think that FUNimation are picking these certain screenshots on purpose. Corey's comparison shows that you don't lose much in the 'widescreen-ing', only thing lost is a bit more of King Kai's bottom half. However, other screenshots done by other people here show that you lose much more...

Interesting, FUNimation, motherfucking amazing!

Tanooki Kuribo · Post by **Tanooki Kuribo** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:51 pm

The lenghts you people go to... amazing.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:51 pm

Could someone please explain this to me? I understand I am the forum dumbass when it comes to video/encoding, so I would appreciate what all this mumbo-jumbo means. Thanks.

Eclipse · Post by **Eclipse** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:09 pm

Could someone please explain this to me? I understand I am the forum dumbass when it comes to video/encoding, so I would appreciate what all this mumbo-jumbo means. Thanks.

There's this thing called overscan. When stuff is shown on TV, overscan cuts off 5-10% off all sides, although it's usually not a big loss.

FUNimation is claming by using widescreen, they can stop this.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:18 pm

Amiable-Akuma · Post by **Amiable-Akuma** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:22 pm

Great post, Corey/others.

So here's that Gohan R2 D-box shot (taken for another thread):

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:24 pm

Amiable-Akuma wrote:Great post, Corey/others.

So here's that Gohan R2 D-box shot (taken for another thread):

Thanks, I had to catch up with you since you blew me away in the previous thread

I'm fairly certain that's a bootleg, the color saturation looks off...or I may be crazy. It's not unusual for that to happen ;p

If it is (i.e. - if Gokuden553 posted it originally), I'll snag the correct screenshot later, I've just been attending to the girlfriend/cat/preparations for parents coming over to my place tomorrow.

-Corey

Eclipse · Post by **Eclipse** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:29 pm

VegettoEX wrote:*snipped image*

Just a question: What is the 'Title Safe Area'?

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:31 pm

Eclipse wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:*snipped image*
Just a question: What is the 'Title Safe Area'?

"Title safe or safe title is, in television broadcasting, a rectangular area which is far enough in from the four edges, such that text or graphics show neatly: with a margin and without distortion. This is applied against a worst case of on-screen location and display type. Typically corners would require more space from the edges, but due to increased quality of the average display this is no longer the concern it used to be, even on CRTs."

-Wikipedia...err, Corey

Amiable-Akuma · Post by **Amiable-Akuma** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:49 pm

Also a couple points to be clear:

1. There's nothing extra or missing from what the Dragon Boxes display. Like EX suggested and someone else mentioned - 4:3 shows are always slightly cropped/zoomed-in on because their outside areas are most susceptible to wear and tear damage. Leaving extra space around a frame ensures prints will last longer and that the director/crew have more options in creating the FINAL 4:3 master. (A master being a transfer of a film negative that exists as a "master copy" from which DVDs are authored.)

So seeing the extra bottom portion of the original film frame or the extra side portions (of the so-called "widescreen" version) may or will actually hurt the viewing experience because you will see times when those outer sections have drawings that are stretched, distorted, have uncleanable print damage, feature nothing but blank space/color, show perspective skews, or just reveal something the director didn't really intend for you to see - period. All the characters/action of the show is framed/placed in the middle - so a lot of extra space at the bottom (whether it's been drawn in or not) will make the show seem "off" - as now, all of a sudden, all the characters/action will have been "pushed up" 50 pixels or so. So for example, if the director intended you to focus on a close-up of Goku's eyes - you now may actually be wondering why you're left looking at part of his nose that seems mis-drawn.

2. Overscan only matters/mattered on old CRT, tube TVs - not on new widescreen TVs, flat-panel TVs, HDTVs, monitors, or HTPCs - all of which we all already own or will own sooner or later. Most every tube TV has been discontinued, in fact. Soon you won't be able to even buy a TV, let alone any "screen"/display, capable of even being afflicted by overscan. So even if you decided you wanted to suffer from "overscan" - it would be impossible to do, essentially. Thus, Funi's overscan talk is one of the trashiest, most dirty, and deceitful bits of marketing spin I've ever witnessed. Whether you competely understand it or not - you should begin to feel violently insulted - RIGHT THIS INSTANCE.

3. Not only is Funi not giving us what we want and deserve but rather they're actually giving us less then we imagined and that they've repeatedly told us they would from the beginning. They've now made several promises and claims that can be seen as nothing but pure deceit and lies. I suggest we all pray that the Toei singles become cheaper, complete, and more easily purchased in the future.

Amiable-Akuma · Post by **Amiable-Akuma** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:29 am

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Amiable-Akuma wrote:Great post, Corey/others.

So here's that Gohan R2 D-box shot (taken for another thread):

*pic snipped*

Thanks, I had to catch up with you since you blew me away in the previous thread

I'm fairly certain that's a bootleg, the color saturation looks off...or I may be crazy. It's not unusual for that to happen ;p

If it is (i.e. - if Gokuden553 posted it originally), I'll snag the correct screenshot later, I've just been attending to the girlfriend/cat/preparations for parents coming over to my place tomorrow.

-Corey

Corey, your welcome - as you know I'm a big fan of the work you've been doing here since forever anyway

. BTW, sorry, I never responded more after I posted all that - work obligations.

Also, let me apologize if that's a bootleg screenshot. Of course, I have the D-box that is from myself but it's triple-boxed and packed away in the equivalent of a "safe" somewhere. I'm only watching back-ups of the original DB series I made from it's D-box (which I also own) right now...(so while I can technically get that shot - it'd be much better for me if I waited til say the end of the day tomorrow to see if somebody else is not able to take care of it first...)
---

Hah, anyway - you know, since my last post above, - I've been thinking about this. With all the evidence we've looked at and what they've told us - I am now beginning to wonder if what has happened here is that Funi actually just sort of "honestly" and legitimately made a mistake during their re-mastering process. That the whole "widescreen" thing was actually a mistake they made from the beginning.

They've already proven that certain execs there handling the property obviously don't know jack about the details/truth of film framing, restoration, mastering, what have you. Maybe at the beginning of this project - Funi took the film reel that they had acquired to some remastering firm - and one of the employees there said "hmm, how do you want this done - there's space available to decide - so um, you want it wide-screen, full-screen or what?!". The employee was just doing his job, asking what the customer wants done exactly - but the Funi idiots heard wide-screen and went "Woooooh, 'wide-screen' - aw, yeah, the new sexy buzz word of day for DVD/TVs - aw, yeah, of course - that MUST be what we want here!".

But of course they didn't take into account anything important about why film for a 4:3 show should be handled a certain way (see #1 of my last post) - and then before they realized they fucked up - the firm had already gone ahead and transfered, restored, and re-packaged over 200 episodes at expensive costs.

Now they know they are wrong and that they made a bad decision a long time ago in the production process - but they're trying to make the best of a shitty situation by using "clever" tech talk and marketing tools to fool those who may still be blind.

It actually wouldn't surprise me...