The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Sayo-chan]

One of the Daizenshuu also states he was only SSJ2 at the tournament. But I don't see why it matters considering SSJ2 is a multiplier.

[ZombieVito]

One of the Daizenshuu also states he was only SSJ2 at the tournament. But I don't see why it matters considering SSJ2 is a multiplier.

The first quote you posted is after he turns SSJ2....

I any case this isn't a topic for that.

[Doctor.]

Well considering Super Perfect Cell, by all means, should be stronger than SS2 Gohan, and yet Gohan killed him, the Daizenshuu's explanation makes sense. It says Gohan's power was boosted by rage when he was fighting Cell and it also says that Boo arc Gohan isn't weaker than Cell Games Gohan, yet Vegeta says Gohan is weaker every time he shows off his SS2. So we get something like SS2 Gohan (rage boosted) > Super Perfect Cell >/= Dabra > SS2 Gohan (Cell Games) >/= SS2 Gohan (Boo arc)

[Captain Space]

Those quotes are from Daizenshuu 2.

Dabura is confirmed to have fought SSJ2 Gohan in Daizenshuu 7.

The Daizenshuu says a lot of things for sure. The accuracy or validity of those things is another issue.

The manga is generally pretty consistent with what SSJ2 looks like, even aside from minor details like eye shapes and hair bangs and whatnot. If they have sparks that persist throughout their transformation, they're in SSJ2. No sparks or momentary sparks in the instant of transformation, no SSJ2. No sparks on Gohan fighting Dabura.

In any case, even if I'm wrong and he was SSJ2 which I acknowledge is not impossible, I can't imagine Gohan having done no training for seven years and the result being: Base power unchanged; SSJ1 power unchanged; SSJ2 power dropped. Why would that happen?

Mr. Satan's mustache vs Ox-King's beard.

Vegeta's moustache wins via last-minute interference.

[supercat]

Tao Pai Pai VS. Piccolo (Saiyan Arc)
--Equal battle powers

Lunch VS. Bulma

Tao Pai Pai seems to be an exceptionally gifted combat expert who knows exactly how and when to strike, while simultaneously keeping himself out of harm's way. That said, even as early as the Saiyan Arc, Piccolo embodied the craftiness of an adept fighter, who probably has the wits to deal with the vast majority of things Tao Pai Pai has to throw his way.

Although I can't imagine this being a walk in the park for Piccolo at this point of the series, I'd say things would still ultimately be in his favor.

SSJ4 Goku (Buu Saga) vs Ultimate Gohan. (In this case, we're talking about a hypothetical golden SSJ4 transformation that works more like the SSJ3, it wastes too much energy).
SSJ3 Gotenks (EoZ) vs SSJ2 Goku (GT).
SSJ Goten and Trunks (Pre-Rosat) vs 2nd Grade SSJ Vegeta and Future Trunks.
Piccolo (Post-Rosat) vs Semi-Perfect Cell.
Mr. Satan's mustache vs Ox-King's beard.

-This could honestly go either way in my opinion. Even with an insane amount of hax backing him up, GT SSJ4 Goku was only on par with Vegetto. It really boils down to whether or not Goku would go from SSJ Vegetto tier all the way down to Ultimate Gohan tier, with the absence of his GT hax.

-SSJ3 Gotenks takes this with the utmost ease. At the highest, I'd say GT SSJ Goku is only in the same realm of power as SSJ Gotenks.

-Team 2 probably takes this with minimal difficulty in my opinion.

-Piccolo nearly one-shots. I have the Namekian sitting a notch or two below Perfect Cell (suppressed), so this would be an exceptionally easy win for him.

- Hercule extends his mustache out, uses it to pick up a razor, and gives Ox-King a clean shave.

[Sayo-chan]

One of the Daizenshuu also states he was only SSJ2 at the tournament. But I don't see why it matters considering SSJ2 is a multiplier.

The first quote you posted is after he turns SSJ2....

I any case this isn't a topic for that.

My point was that SSJ2 is a multiplier, so his base is always a factor aside from rage. However, I definitely like what Doctor posted above.

[Doctor.]

In any case, even if I'm wrong and he was SSJ2 which I acknowledge is not impossible, I can't imagine Gohan having done no training for seven years and the result being: Base power unchanged; SSJ1 power unchanged; SSJ2 power dropped. Why would that happen?

Because of this:

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Yes, it also says "and because he hadn't been training", but it implies that the gap between the two versions of the character is small and that SS2 Gohan in the Cell Games was only so strong because he was angry. Which makes sense considering: 1. Cell says he acquires a power-up equal to Gohan's and it looks like it's his equivalent of SS2, 2. Kuririn is still being advertised as the strongest human, meaning his power isn't dropping at all, so why would Gohan's?

[Lord Beerus]

SSJ4 Goku (Buu Saga) vs Ultimate Gohan. (In this case, we're talking about a hypothetical golden SSJ4 transformation that works more like the SSJ3, it wastes too much energy).
SSJ3 Gotenks (EoZ) vs SSJ2 Goku (GT).
SSJ Goten and Trunks (Pre-Rosat) vs 2nd Grade SSJ Vegeta and Future Trunks.
Piccolo (Post-Rosat) vs Semi-Perfect Cell.
Mr. Satan's mustache vs Ox-King's beard.

- Ultimate Gohan still wins easily
- Depends on which Goku you're referring to in GT. If this SSJ2 Goku prior to him going to Planet M-2, then Gotenks stomps. If this is SSJ2 Goku post-Planet M-2, he one shots.
- Goten and Trunks get a spanking from Vegeta and Future Trunks
- Piccolo wrecks Cell
- The World Champs mustache remained unfazed from a simultaneous attack from Beerus and Majin Boo. The Ox King's beard stands no chance.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

SSJ4 Goku (Buu Saga) vs Ultimate Gohan. (In this case, we're talking about a hypothetical golden SSJ4 transformation that works more like the SSJ3, it wastes too much energy).

Goku loses badly. Rou Kaioshin brought Gohan far beyond his limits and SS4 brings a user to their utmost limits.

SSJ3 Gotenks (EoZ) vs SSJ2 Goku (GT).

Pre-M2 Goku loses but post-M2 Goku and beyond wins in my opinion. He'd win even in base form by the S17 arc.

SSJ Goten and Trunks (Pre-Rosat) vs 2nd Grade SSJ Vegeta and Future Trunks.

If it's CG Trunks and Vegeta, I think they'd win in a close match, if it's first day RoSaT Vegeta and Trunks the kids win with no difficulty in my opinion.

Piccolo (Post-Rosat) vs Semi-Perfect Cell.

2nd form Cell would get a similar type beating to the one he got from SSG2 Vegeta in my opinion.

[ahill1]

When Gohan gained the power of anger? I do not understand this.

[Sayo-chan]

When Gohan gained the power of anger? I do not understand this.

He always had it. We first see it when he headbutts Raditz. It's also the first scene we see in his flashback of him explaining his anger/power to Cell. If you mean during the Cell Games, when he kills Cell. The next time after that is when he sees Videl being tormented.

[Doctor.]

When Gohan gained the power of anger? I do not understand this.

If you mean in the Cell fight, the Daizenshuu says "when he beat Cell", so I imagine either when he transformed for the first time and/or at the very end of the Kamehameha struggle, which explains how he beat Cell when he only had half of his Ki remaining. It doesn't necessarily contradict anything, Goku even tells Gohan in the Boo arc to get angry.

[Captain Space]

In any case, even if I'm wrong and he was SSJ2 which I acknowledge is not impossible, I can't imagine Gohan having done no training for seven years and the result being: Base power unchanged; SSJ1 power unchanged; SSJ2 power dropped. Why would that happen?

Because of this:

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Yes, it also says "and because he hadn't been training", but it implies that the gap between the two versions of the character is small and that SS2 Gohan in the Cell Games was only so strong because he was angry. Which makes sense considering: 1. Cell says he acquires a power-up equal to Gohan's and it looks like it's his equivalent of SS2, 2. Kuririn is still being advertised as the strongest human, meaning his power isn't dropping at all, so why would Gohan's?

Still, his power from anger always used to apply in base form; no reason to think it's suddenly all transferred to SSJ2 and nothing else. It still seems more logical that if he got weaker in one form, he got weaker in the others as well.

In any case, even if this is correct, the implication is still that his lack of training has made at least a slight difference; and my original point was taking issue with a claim that Buu saga Gohan was stronger than his Cell Games self, all anger-related things being equal.

Presumably Krillin's position is due to a combination of his power unlock on Namek creating a huge gap to begin with, which he then capitalised on by continuing to train right up to the Cell Games at least; and we don't actually know when he quit fighting, as was pointed out to me not too long ago. In any case, the story's pretty clear: Krillin stated as strongest human despite being now semi-retired, so evidently Tenshinhan hasn't caught up yet. Gohan stated to be weaker than before, the cause of this attributed to lack of training by both Goku and Vegeta. Goku later goes on to say that Gohan will be stronger when angry, but this doesn't contradict what he said before, hence both are factors.

...that went on longer than I intended. I hope it still makes sense.

[pacz360]

Deathstroke vs Master Roshi(21st TB)

Young Justice (TV series) Superboy vs Saiyan arc Gohan

Cyborg, Lex Luther, Oracle , and Tim Drake (the geeks) vs Gero, Bulma, Dr.Briefs, and GT Trunks (fighting and how smart they are).

Roshi
Gohan
Team 1 in intelligence team 2 in battle.

[ZombieVito]

In any case, even if this is correct, the implication is still that his lack of training has made at least a slight difference; and my original point was taking issue with a claim that Buu saga Gohan was stronger than his Cell Games self, all anger-related things being equal.

We have official sources that say Kid Gohan = Teen Gohan and Gohan trained for the 25th TB. He should be stronger, even a little bit.

Not training for a few years doesn't make you weaker. Master Roshi didn't for 8 years and didn't drop a single digit.

[Captain Space]

In any case, even if this is correct, the implication is still that his lack of training has made at least a slight difference; and my original point was taking issue with a claim that Buu saga Gohan was stronger than his Cell Games self, all anger-related things being equal.

We have official sources that say Kid Gohan = Teen Gohan and Gohan trained for the 25th TB. He should be stronger, even a little bit.

Not training for a few years doesn't make you weaker. Master Roshi didn't for 8 years and didn't drop a single digit.

Ehm, okay, if you wanna go by that. I don't trust that source myself; the only thing the series itself ever says is that he got weaker, and it's a pretty generalised statement (especially since the only thing that says Gohan was SSJ2 when Goku and Vegeta agreed he was weaker is also in that same source whose accuracy I have a dubious opinion of).

Is there another number given for Roshi I'm not aware of? The only ones I know are:

BoZ: 139

Buff (not sure of the time period): 180

And of course his buff form is higher. Doesn't seem to say anything about how his power did or didn't change. Of course, I leave that question there; if another number was given for Roshi that I just forgot or never heard, do tell me and I'll retract this part.

[ZombieVito]

Daizenshuu 7 gives Roshi a 139 in the 22nd TB.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo Daimao barely dropped in power after going without any form of exercise for hundreds of years, and aging into a geezer.

[LonelyShadow]

SSJ4 Goku (Buu Saga) vs Ultimate Gohan. (In this case, we're talking about a hypothetical golden SSJ4 transformation that works more like the SSJ3, it wastes too much energy).
SSJ3 Gotenks (EoZ) vs SSJ2 Goku (GT).
SSJ Goten and Trunks (Pre-Rosat) vs 2nd Grade SSJ Vegeta and Future Trunks.
Piccolo (Post-Rosat) vs Semi-Perfect Cell.
Mr. Satan's mustache vs Ox-King's beard.

- Ultimate Gohan still wins easily
- Depends on which Goku you're referring to in GT. If this SSJ2 Goku prior to him going to Planet M-2, then Gotenks stomps. If this is SSJ2 Goku post-Planet M-2, he one shots.
- Goten and Trunks get a spanking from Vegeta and Future Trunks
- Piccolo wrecks Cell
- The World Champs mustache remained unfazed from a simultaneous attack from Beerus and Majin Boo. The Ox King's beard stands no chance.

- I always wondered, how weak was Goku compared to Gohan during that time? As far as I know, there's probably nothing official (Numbers, specific statements, etc.).
Did the fans ever come to a conclusion where most of the people agree with it?

- Wait, what kind of drugs did Goku took in Planet M-2 in order to become "so strongonlongo"? I've never understood that. I'm not an expert when it comes to GT.
I feel it requires too much effort in order to comprehend the way the power levels go. And I always end up skipping the first 59 episodes...

- I-I don't see Vegeta spanking his son... in front of his "other" son. But yeah.

- I agree with that, but how far Piccolo was from beings like a Full-Power Super Saiyan?

- The mustache does not only comes with the title of the Champ, it has hidden powers beyond anything ever created. Old Kai Ritual + Mr. Satan > Any Mary Sue character ever.

-This could honestly go either way in my opinion. Even with an insane amount of hax backing him up, GT SSJ4 Goku was only on par with Vegetto. It really boils down to whether or not Goku would go from SSJ Vegetto tier all the way down to Ultimate Gohan tier, with the absence of his GT hax.

-SSJ3 Gotenks takes this with the utmost ease. At the highest, I'd say GT SSJ Goku is only in the same realm of power as SSJ Gotenks.

-Team 2 probably takes this with minimal difficulty in my opinion.

-Piccolo nearly one-shots. I have the Namekian sitting a notch or two below Perfect Cell (suppressed), so this would be an exceptionally easy win for him.

- (the H-word) extends his mustache out, uses it to pick up a razor, and gives Ox-King a clean shave.

- I honestly don't have an opinion over that fight, I just thought it was a pretty cool scenario and I wanted to know people's opinion over the subject.

- Wasn't Base GT Goku ≥ SSJ3 Goku (Z)? Does that means that Base Gotenks was about as strong as SSJ3 Goku at that point?

- How about after the kids trained for their battle against Super Buu?

- That seems right, I just read on the wiki that Piccolo was about as strong as FPSSJ Goku at 50%.

- Is almost unfair, right?

SSJ3 Gotenks (EoZ) vs SSJ2 Goku (GT).

Pre-M2 Goku loses but post-M2 Goku and beyond wins in my opinion. He'd win even in base form by the S17 arc.

I tried my best using my shameful Internet in order to find information about why there's such a big difference between pre-M2 Goku and post-M2 Goku, what happened there?

Mr. Satan's mustache vs Ox-King's beard.

Vegeta's moustache wins via last-minute interference.

For the many gods. That's not fair at all. I wasn't even planning to put him into the fight because is just so unfair. Saiyan facial hair >>> Weak human whatever.
Unless Mr. Satan manages to unlock some of his hidden potential located inside The mustache is a stomp, of course.

[ahill1]

Roshi cannot be 139 in the 22nd TB; His power must be around 60

Roshi ( 22nd TB ) 60
Roshi ( BoZ ) 60