Why is everyone so set on Goku being hugely strong in GT?

[Cipher]

Spinning out of another thread:

I keep seeing people reporting as if there's not other interpretation that base Goku in GT is a Boo-level character, possibly stronger than he was as a Super Saiyan 3 at the end of Z. This honestly baffled me when I first encountered it, but I've since come to understand it's actually the more popular approach.

I, and I've watched GT all the way through several times, has always been the apparently less popular reading that Goku in GT is not substantially stronger than he is at the end of Z.

So without pulling out the Scouters, I'm interested in talking about this. Since I don't think it's confirmed one way or the other, this may be less about what evidence there is on a line-by-line level, and more about which approach actually fits better with previous content and GT itself. Basically, which makes the series more watchable?

In defense of the no-substantial-increase reading (and why I went with this without giving it a second thought until I started visiting sites like Kanzenshuu nee Daizex), it:

1. Fits better with the idea that characters are peaking in terms of power. While newer material has kind of/sort of taken the opposite approach, this is very much the vibe I got from the end of the Boo arc and even the decision to end Z with Goku running off to train Oob.

2. Fits better with the idea that Freeza was one of the strongest players in the universe, as the only villains encountered in space who need to top him are Lood and Rilld, both Machine Mutants that could have been invented far after, or in Rilld's case not ventured beyond M2. Redict would be in his range, but given it's two decades later, I'm down with that. This prevents absurdities like the Sigma Force Cannon being a Boo-level opponent.

3. Works better with Trunks and Pan not being presented as being ridiculous below Goku at any point. They're definitely weaker, but Pan offs a member of the Sigma Force and lands a good blow on Rilld. Super Saiyan Trunks helps Goku out against Mutchi-Mutchi and Lood and they're presented as being faiiiiirly even. He also manages to threaten Goku when possessed by Baby.

4. Plays better with a possessed and powered-up Vegeta being the first major threat to Goku, and that same Vegeta not being ludicrously stronger than Gohan and Goten. I can buy a bolstered Boo-level Vegeta far surpassing Super Saiyan 3 Goku. But if that same Goku is already stronger than Boo? Man, I don't know. Then everyone, including Pan, needs to be enormously strong compared to Boo-arc fighters.

What has to be hand-waved?

1. You kind of have to explain base Goku vs. Oob. But until I started coming here, I never assumed that human Oob was necessarily going to be 1:1 with pure Boo's power. Or maybe they weren't going all out. Hell, who cares.

2. You have to explain the weird Rilld=Boo line, which for years I've just attributed to the Super Saiyan 1 or 2-level Mr. Boo. Even still, Goku loses that fight.

3. Goku vs. Freez and Cell. Admittedly this is simpler with the assumption of a huge increase, but as they're also in Hell at the time, I don't think it's a huge issue.

Obviously the more popular (I guess?) read tackles those three, while causing some problems with the four above. Which do you prefer to go with? There are some inconsistencies to grapple with either way, so which causes the least problems for you, and why? Personally, while I understand the rationale in placing Goku much higher, I'm not willing to jettison my understanding of the fictional universe nor, most of the time, what I'm seeing on screen to accommodate it.

Have at!

[ekrolo2]

I always attributed Goku's impressive feats in base and SSJ1 as him learning how to tap into his higher levels of power without necessarily having to transform into say SSJ2 or SSJ3 outright. I mean, Freeza could do that just fine in his final form (his Ki control is utter shit too) and Cell could fluctuate his power without transforming upon reaching his Perfect State. I think he even has the Super Saiyan aura in the Freeza & Cell fight in Hell but not the gold hair or green eyes.

[Galan007]

Base Goku was hugely strong in GT. Goku, who can very accurately sense ki, stated that base Rilldo>Majin Boo--yet Goku fought him to a standstill in his base level. ie. base GT Goku=base Rilldo>Majin Boo... And Pretty much any version of Boo was in the SSJ3-tier in Z.

To solidify base GT Goku's power is the fact that he effortlessly trounced both Cell and Freeza as though they were inept fodder. For a point of comparison: base Z Goku(BoG-era) was still decisively weaker than Freeza--nevermind ANY incarnation of Cell.

[ekrolo2]

Base Goku was hugely strong in GT. Goku, who can very accurately sense ki, stated that base Rilldo>Majin Boo--yet Goku fought him to a standstill in his base level. ie. base GT Goku=base Rilldo>Majin Boo... And Pretty much any version of Boo was in the SSJ3-tier in Z.

To solidify base GT Goku's power is the fact that he effortlessly trounced both Cell and Freeza as though they were inept fodder. For a point of comparison: base Z Goku(BoG-era) was still decisively weaker than Freeza--nevermind ANY incarnation of Cell.

BoG doesn't make sense with GT as the two contradict each other and BoG wasn't thought of until well over a decade after GT. The whole Freeza being stronger than the Base Saiyan's most likely doesn't apply to GT.

[Galan007]

Um, I know?

I merely pointed out the VAST difference in power between Z and GT Goku.

[Cipher]

Base Goku was hugely strong in GT. Goku, who can very accurately sense ki, stated that base Rilldo>Majin Boo--yet Goku fought him to a standstill in his base level. ie. base GT Goku=base Rilldo>Majin Boo... And Pretty much any version of Boo was in the SSJ3-tier in Z.

To solidify base GT Goku's power is the fact that he effortlessly trounced both Cell and Freeza as though they were inept fodder. For a point of comparison: base Z Goku(BoG-era) was still decisively weaker than Freeza--nevermind ANY incarnation of Cell.

So, like, I get where that interpretation comes from and acknowledged in the opening post. Does that actually make the series more watchable for you given the other problems it causes (or do you even see them as problems)?

Basically, is working in the easiest explanations for the Rilld/Freeza and Cell pieces worth all the other things it implies (regarding other characters' strength and in-universe consistency), and when base Goku never makes those kind of increases in the android or Boo arcs?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Base Goku was stronger than SS Gohan, who, going by the GT Perfect Files, is even stronger than his Ultimate self from Z. That'd at least put Base Goku well above the likes of Evil Boo/SS3 Gotenks.

[Cipher]

Base Goku was stronger than SS Gohan, who, going by the GT Perfect Files, is even stronger than his Ultimate self from Z. That'd at least put Base Goku well above the likes of Evil Boo/SS3 Gotenks.

Does it really say that in the perfect files?

Also, I'm not ready to make such a closed case of Goku vs. Gohan just based on that episode. They attack him lightly before Baby shows up and get knocked back; really, really easy to read as a less-than-full-power fight. Keep in mind there's no enormous difference shown between Gohan and Vegeta.

I'm going to be honest and say that I don't see anything changing my mind here, especially given it's a preference in reading -- if the intent is to have Goku be that strong, it's badly portrayed enough in the series to interpret differently -- but I am kind of baffled by the idea that people find super-strong Goku a preferable reading or even the only plausible one.

A lot of this stuff just seems like that Yamcha vs. Olibu scene toward the end of Z (I know that's anime-only, but from a point of making an in-universe interpretation) -- like, I get what this could imply, but it's so out of line with everything we know about this universe that I'm not going to change my interpretations based on it.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yes, the Perfect Files not say Gohan continued his training into GT.

As for you analysis of the fight, I agree to an extent. I could settle for Gohan and Goku being equals or Gohan having a slight power advantage at worst, but I don't see a reason for Gohan to suppress himself just to be hurt by Goku's attacks. Goku's at least within striking range of SS Gohan (and thus still at least stronger than Evil Boo).

[Galan007]

Base Goku was stronger than SS Gohan, who, going by the GT Perfect Files, is even stronger than his Ultimate self from Z.

Do you have that quote handy?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Base Goku was stronger than SS Gohan, who, going by the GT Perfect Files, is even stronger than his Ultimate self from Z.

Do you have that quote handy?

I'm sorry, I'm on my phone.

Just google "GT Perfect Files Herms", then command+f "Son Gohan"

[Cipher]

As for you analysis of the fight, I agree to an extent. I could settle for Gohan and Goku being equals or Gohan having a slight power advantage at worst, but I don't see a reason for Gohan to suppress himself just to be hurt by Goku's attacks. Goku's at least within striking range of SS Gohan (and thus still at least stronger than Evil Boo).

Vegeta-Baby arrives slightly afterward, so I saw them as just setting the stage for the big-bad, since they're all under Baby's control at that time. It's super quick too: Just a flurry of punches and getting knocked back by a kiai before Baby arrives. Goku doesn't knock them out or anything.

That said, Goku being within striking range of Super Saiyan Gohan I could totally buy if Gohan's back to his early Boo arc power -- that's nowhere near the increase most people lean toward, and I don't think one that would violate how the series has worked up to that point.

Re: Perfect Files: This is tricky, because we're not sure how much was actually held to when doing the scripts, but it just strikes me as radically crazy and unnecessary to have both Vegeta and Goku up to a level above ultimate Gohan by the time the series starts, which is what standing by that quote would require. (And again, then the way Trunks, Goten and even Pan compare to them gets super weird.) All said, I think I'm more willing go ignore that based on how the series plays out.

EDIT -- Ah, that quote's way less specific than I thought it would be. "Didn't neglect his training" is about as vague a way of building excitement as can be.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I just don't take Toei seriously when it comes to battle powers.

Goku was supposed to have reached his prime in the manga, and he was weaker than Freeza (Namek arc) in his regular form. Then GT shows him being stronger than Rild, who was stronger than Boo, and also much stronger than a trained Freeza & a trained Cell from Hell. By the time he gets to M2, he is stronger than he was a Super Saiyan against Redgic... in base. In Baby arc, Super Oob was stronger than SS3 Goku from the same arc. Then in the Super #17 arc, Goku surpasses Oob as a Super Saiyan. Oh, and I almost forgot: in Baby arc, he is apparently stronger than Super Saiyan Ultimate Gohan in base. And after all these, the guidebooks tell us that Super Vegetto is around SS4 Goku's level.

It's not just the crazy gains, another issue is the broken logic they use. They show SS Goku being stronger than SS, maybe SS2, Vegeta in Super #17 arc. In the Evil Dragons arc, SS4 Goku becomes even more powerful than he normally is by absorbing the power of SS Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. And then Vegeta comes, turns into an Oozaru (reminder, Oozaru is a weaker form than Super Saiyan, specifically 5 times), and guess what? He overpowers this powered-up SS4 Goku. You think this is it? He becomes more powerful by becoming a Golden Oozaru (this form is stronger than Super Saiyan 3), and then becomes even more powerful by turning into a Super Saiyan 4, which makes him as strong as powered-up SS4 Goku, since they did Fusion without having to adjust their powers. To put it simple, Oozaru Vegeta < SS(2?) Vegeta < SS Goku < Golden Oozaru Vegeta < SS4 Goku < SS4 Vegeta = powered-up SS4 Goku < Oozaru Vegeta < Golden Oozaru Vegeta < SS4 Vegeta. No, I didn't add Oozaru/Golden Oozaru/SS4 Vegeta twice by accident.

Let's not forget their doings in Z. Goku says that he can't beat Evil Boo, who was weaker than Ultimate Gohan, and as strong as SS3 Gotenks. Then Goku fights on par with Ultimate Gohan as a regular Super Saiyan, and SS Vegeta (reminder, SS2 Vegeta was weaker than Fat Boo, who was weaker than Evil Boo) does the same against SS3 Gotenks & Piccolo. So, SS Goku & SS Vegeta are actually stronger than SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta. Pure Boo is also the strongest of all the Boos, and Goku believes he can beat him, even though he couldn't beat the "weaker" Evil Boo...

Fuck this shit. I still love GT though.

[Galan007]

I'm sorry, I'm on my phone.

Just google "GT Perfect Files Herms", then command+f "Son Gohan"

Thanks.

Here's the quote:

Son Gohan
He transformed when fighting with Goten after Goten had been taken over by Baby!! It seems that even in times of peace, he hasn’t neglected his training. The differences in Gohan’s facial expressions before and after transforming are the most intense out of any warrior!!

[Doctor.]

It's not a case of making the story more enjoyable. The story would be far more enjoyable to me if I pretended all of the androids barring Cell were weaker than Freeza, it'd be more enjoyable if I pretended Daimao was stronger than God or Popo, but none of that is true. Facing facts is important, and there's simply no way Goku's normal state is at Freeza's level in GT, he defeats Freeza AND Cell in Hell, that's obvious proof right there.

[Cipher]

Fuck this shit. I still love GT though.

I do too, which is why I've always leaned toward an interpretation that makes the most sense with the rest of the universe/the on-screen action, at the expense of having to explain a handful of lines or scenes.

Both approaches totally have problems, but I still feel like one has way more than the other.

It's not a case of making the story more enjoyable.

Not at all. It's about trying to match everything up with what's on-screen and what we know about the world (maybe "enjoyable's" the wrong word, compared to which works best). And believe me, if anything in the series came down harder on its relative strengths, I wouldn't have wound up with a different interpretation in the first place. Z's a lot firmer when it comes to that and, while it's not a paragon of consistency, by and large matches on-screen/page action up with those statements pretty well. GT doesn't, so ... it's worth discussing which fits better when all's said and done.

Like, would I rather adhere to one slightly easier interpretation of a few lines and scenes at the expense of 90% of what I'm watching on-screen and understand about the universe, or go with an alternate reading of those handful of lines and scenes so that they fit the other 90%?

[Sayo-chan]

Base Goku was hugely strong in GT. Goku, who can very accurately sense ki, stated that base Rilldo>Majin Boo--yet Goku fought him to a standstill in his base level. ie. base GT Goku=base Rilldo>Majin Boo... And Pretty much any version of Boo was in the SSJ3-tier in Z.

To solidify base GT Goku's power is the fact that he effortlessly trounced both Cell and Freeza as though they were inept fodder. For a point of comparison: base Z Goku(BoG-era) was still decisively weaker than Freeza--nevermind ANY incarnation of Cell.

Does that actually make the series more watchable for you given the other problems it causes (or do you even see them as problems)?

Basically, is working in the easiest explanations for the Rilld/Freeza and Cell pieces worth all the other things it implies (regarding other characters' strength and in-universe consistency), and when base Goku never makes those kind of increases in the android or Boo arcs?

I've been watching GT lately, for the first time in a decade. They are problems, perhaps significant problems if you want to make it work with many other parts of the franchise, but I don't think they cheapen the experience. I used to avoid GT and liked to pretend it didn't exist, mainly because of the changes made to my favorite characters as a consequence of the inconsistencies presented. But now, I lengthen my suspension of disbelief and enjoy it for what it is. Despite how I'm still not too keen on the idea of Goku being turned into a kid, I thoroughly enjoyed their adventures in space. The music, the atmosphere and overall charm made it worthwhile, despite what I may dislike about it. Beyond that, it's pretty much the same reason so many people watch Z; over the top fights with iconic moments, and GT is certainly filled with those. While I may hate the new god forms, I've always thought SSJ4 not only looked cool, but also made far more sense as the next transformation as opposed to SSJ2 or 3, despite the latter really being a self-parody. When SSJ4 came back blind to take care of Li Shenlong is one of my favorite moments out of any of the three anime.

[Galan007]

So, like, I get where that interpretation comes from and acknowledged in the opening post. Does that actually make the series more watchable for you given the other problems it causes (or do you even see them as problems)?

Basically, is working in the easiest explanations for the Rilld/Freeza and Cell pieces worth all the other things it implies (regarding other characters' strength and in-universe consistency), and when base Goku never makes those kind of increases in the android or Boo arcs?

I don't try to quantify GT powersets using the parameters of Z. They certainly don't line-up in that regard.

[Tectorman]

Base Goku was hugely strong in GT. Goku, who can very accurately sense ki, stated that base Rilldo>Majin Boo--yet Goku fought him to a standstill in his base level. ie. base GT Goku=base Rilldo>Majin Boo... And Pretty much any version of Boo was in the SSJ3-tier in Z.

Not quite.

1) Goku states that General Rildo's ki is greater than Buu's, and fights him evenly.

2) Goku revs up to SSJ.

3) General Rildo becomes Metal Rildo and Goku notes that Metal Rildo is "a little bit stronger than he expected" (what he expected = greater than Buu).

4) SSJ Goku and Metal Rildo fight evenly.

I.e., GT SSJ Goku = Metal Rildo > (some form of Buu) > GT Base Goku = General Rildo (specifically, General Rildo exhibits a certain amount of ki but can only actually utilize 2% of it without going Metal).

Supporting this notion is the fact that Goku noticed General Rildo exhibiting far more ki than he was fighting with. For Goku to not be worried about facing an opponent 50x stronger than him, he'd have to have accounted for where this extra ki was, if not actually at General Rildo's disposal. And we see evidence that he did, later in the fight. Goku tells Liquid Metal Rildo that he had caught on to Rildo's control over the planet's metal a while ago. I think it was when he noticed General Rildo exhibiting Buu-tier ki (equivalent to Goku's SSJ), but only using a fiftieth of it when he was fighting Goku in Base.

Originally, I thought the Buu in question was Kid Buu, which would make GT SSJ Goku = Z SSJ3 Goku, meaning he got only 8x stronger. It seemed a whole lot more sane and comparable to the gains he made throughout Z.

Ultimately, I abandoned that notion and decided that the Buu in question must've been Buuhan. Gohan was stronger than every Buu in Z except for Buutenks and Buuhan, and Gohan didn't get weaker in GT. For all of this to be true and for General Rildo to best Gohan the way he did, the Buu in question has to be Buutenks or Buuhan. Except it makes no sense for Goku's reference to Buu to mean "Buu, but only the second-strongest he ever got". To quote the DM of the Rings, "that is a highly specific level of tired". Hence, Buuhan.

Incidentally, pegging Metal Rildo and SSJ Goku at "slightly above Buuhan" puts those two at the same level as Vegetto. Sure, you could say that since Metal Rildo is "a little bit stronger than (greater than Buu[han]'s)", that he and SSJ Goku must be higher than Vegetto's mere "slightly stronger than Buuhan", but since it's all reaching and implications anyway, I don't think it matters.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Not quite.

1) Goku states that General Rildo's ki is greater than Buu's, and fights him evenly.

2) Goku revs up to SSJ.

3) General Rildo becomes Metal Rildo and Goku notes that Metal Rildo is "a little bit stronger than he expected" (what he expected = greater than Buu).

What?

Hyper Mega Rild is stronger than Goku expected (is that in the sub?), that doesn't change the Base Rild (and by extension, Base Goku) is above Boo.

If someone senses Base Goku, comments he's stronger than Boo, then they're shocked at Goku's power in SS, would that change that Base Goku's above Boo?

All it means in Goku's surprised at how much power General Rild got from transforming into Hyper Mega Rild, not that Rild's 1st form is below Boo.