The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[singsing]

Gotenks was confident in defeat Beerus even though he saw Gohan loose? This means he must be around the same strength? This is incorrect. Gotenks thought he could defeat Fat Boo despite seeing Vegeta lose, does this mean Gotenks Base Pre > Majin Vegeta? Nope! The fight between Gotenks & Boo was so pathetic Toriyama didn't even bother drawing it.

Vegeta told Gotenks not to fight Beerus -having lost himself, but Gotenks doesn't listen. If you want to twist things like this and adhere to silly things I can equally argue that the feats show Vegeta being the strongest amongst them.

Why is it incorrect? Because you say it is? Why can't it be a perfectly valid assumption that you disagree with? Why is it automatically a twisted and silly viewpoint? People can actually make the argument that Gotenks > Majin Vegeta.

[supercat]

Goku Ssj4 (Buu) vs Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST (Buu)

Gohan Ssj (FnF) vs Z-Sword Gohan Ssj2 (Buu)

Good Boo + Evil Buu + Fat Buu vs Goku Ssj3 (Buu)

Kid Buu vs Goku Ssj3 + Good Boo + Vegeta Ssj2 (All at the same time)

Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (BoG) vs Super Vegetto (Buu)

Ultimate Gohan (BoG) vs Gohan Ssj (FnF) vs Z-Sword Gohan Ssj3 vs Ultimate Gohan (Buu)

Ultimate Gohan (BoG) vs Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST (Buu)

Gotenks Ssj Post (BoG) vs Good Buu (BoG)

-Goku wins after an utterly exasperating fight.

-I don't see why these two versions of Gohan can't be on par with each other. Yes, it has been stated that SSJ2 would no longer be a thing, but personally, I can't help but interpret that as nothing more than just the discontinuation of the term itself, while the physical attributes and power gained through the form rocks the same name as its predecessor.

-Well Mr. Buu and Evil Buu (I presume you mean the gray one) are both fodders to a bloodthirsty SSJ3, so it would basically boil down to Majin Buu vs Goku, which presumably would produce a favorable outcome for the latter.

-Even with the right mentality, and efficient usage of energy, I doubt SSJ3 Goku could actually muster the power necessitated to obliterate Buu like he said he could. As for Mr. Buu and Vegeta, even if they dish out everything in their arsenal with full force, their attacks would have a trivial effect at best.

-Okay so for this one, we have a few possible scenarios:

1. Beerus was so far suppressed that he took a brief non-effective beating from someone who barely surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

2. With the help of what could arguably be one of the best hax in the series, Vegeta hit a power that trumped anyone and anything that's ever existed in the Buu arc.

Honestly, the second option doesn't seem that far-fetched when we consider the possible notion that Vegetto who was leagues below Beerus, probably wouldn't be able to have that same short-lived moment of glory against the destroyer. Unless of course, the latter suppresses his power substantially.

-Ultimate Gohan (BoG) is either on par with his Buu arc counterpart, or only marginally stronger, while FnF Gohan is probably in the same realm of power as he was during the time he was wielding the Z-Sword. Because your specific battle gives team 2 Gohan the luxury of sporting SSJ3, I'm going to give it to them on this one.

-Gohan.

-Probably Gotenks. I doubt the kids lost that much power, if any at all.

[Captain Space]

-Ultimate Gohan (BoG) is either on par with his Buu arc counterpart, or only marginally stronger, while FnF Gohan is probably in the same realm of power as he was during the time he was wielding the Z-Sword. Because your specific battle gives team 2 Gohan the luxury of sporting SSJ3, I'm going to give it to them on this one.

That one wasn't a team battle, it was a four-person free-for-all.

[Methuselah]

Kid Buu vs Goku Ssj3 + Good Boo + Vegeta Ssj2 (All at the same time)

Ideally, Good Buu would be great for stalling time in order for Goku to gather his full power, so the team likely wins

Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (BoG) vs Super Vegetto (Buu)

Vegetto utterly slaughters Vegeta.

[supercat]

-Ultimate Gohan (BoG) is either on par with his Buu arc counterpart, or only marginally stronger, while FnF Gohan is probably in the same realm of power as he was during the time he was wielding the Z-Sword. Because your specific battle gives team 2 Gohan the luxury of sporting SSJ3, I'm going to give it to them on this one.

That one wasn't a team battle, it was a four-person free-for-all.

In that case, the strongest version of Ultimate Gohan (presumably the one from BoG) one-shots the two spawns of his shortcomings, and then barely trounces his nearly on par counterpart after a long and dragged out battle.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku Ssj4 (Buu) vs Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST (Buu)

Gohan Ssj (FnF) vs Z-Sword Gohan Ssj2 (Buu)

Good Boo + Evil Buu + Fat Buu vs Goku Ssj3 (Buu)

Kid Buu vs Goku Ssj3 + Good Boo + Vegeta Ssj2 (All at the same time)

Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (BoG) vs Super Vegetto (Buu)

Ultimate Gohan (BoG) vs Gohan Ssj (FnF) vs Z-Sword Gohan Ssj3 vs Ultimate Gohan (Buu)

Ultimate Gohan (BoG) vs Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST (Buu)

Gotenks Ssj Post (BoG) vs Good Buu (BoG)

- Goku gets slaughtered
- FNF SSJ Gohan has nothing on his Majin Boo arc SSJ2 counterpart
- Goku gets overwhelmed very quickly
- Kid Boo gets his ass handed to him
- Vegetto sneezes in Vegeta direction and he gets disintegrated
- Ultimate Gohan (Buu) wins comfortably
- Gohan give Gotenks a spanking
- Gotenks one shots

[RandomGuy96]

Gotenks was confident in defeat Beerus even though he saw Gohan loose? This means he must be around the same strength? This is incorrect. Gotenks thought he could defeat Fat Boo despite seeing Vegeta lose, does this mean Gotenks Base Pre > Majin Vegeta?

Yes. This is supported by, among other things, Piccolo saying that Gotenks's estimate is wrong because he doesn't truly know Buu's fearsomeness (even though he obviously does know that Vegeta lost), Gotenks surviving the fight without significant injuries, Gotenks' base form being backed up as super strong in subsequent post-ROSAT estimates (it doesn't take much to make his base form stronger than Fat Buu), and Krillin saying that base Gotenks might actually be able to beat Buu (again, despite seeing SS2 Vegeta get destroyed).

The fight between Gotenks & Boo was so pathetic Toriyama didn't even bother drawing it.

Gotenks still survived that bout without significant injuries, whereas Vegeta got his arm broken by the first hit, Gohan was almost killed by a single ki blast, and Dabra was knocked out with one punch. The anime version of the fight (we're talking about BOG, so why not bring it up?) also shows Gotenks doing objectively better than SS2 Gohan and Dabra, and arguably Vegeta as well.

Vegeta told Gotenks not to fight Beerus -having lost himself, but Gotenks doesn't listen. If you want to twist things like this and adhere to silly things I can equally argue that the feats show Vegeta being the strongest amongst them.

I'm not twisting anything. I'm not talking about "feats" based on how well they did against a guy who keeps changing his power level. Goten and Trunks see Gohan get beaten, they rush off to fuse without worry, and then Gotenks says he'll defeat Beerus. They probably didn't even hear Vegeta, and even if they did, it wouldn't invalidate them being that strong, as they clearly acknowledged Gohan's superiority back in the Buu arc, and were confident they could do something here. It's really basic stuff.

[h0kuten]

Kuririn calls Gotenks haughty and Yamcha says he 'sure seems confident'. So basically, they're giving Gotenks the benefit of the doubt. We also never seen the fight between Fat Boo & Base Gotenks so you can't use the fight as a strength indicator for Gotenks. Just because someone survives means nothing. Hercule survived Perfect Cell, he also survived Kid Boo, while Vegeta Ssj2 also survived Kid Boo, even in his base form, or Trunks surviving Super Boo.

I guess Kid Buu also kept changing his power level. Or Super Buu when he attacked Trunks in his Base form. I don't think that the 'Beerus changing his power level' is a very good argument. Android 18 cannot be sensed, so Beerus couldn't change his power level for her. Even if you argue that Beerus saw her movements, I can argue that his back was turned, so he couldn't of -unless you believe he has eyes on the back of his head.

The feats are there to show us who is stronger than who.

Goku Ssj3 > Buuhan > Buutenks >= Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks Ssj

Basically

[RandomGuy96]

Kuririn calls Gotenks haughty and Yamcha says he 'sure seems confident'. So basically, they're giving Gotenks the benefit of the doubt.

No they're not. Krillin says he'll have a chance despite being haughty, not because he's haughty. They can simply sense his ki, too, like Piccolo and Roshi did.

We also never seen the fight between Fat Boo & Base Gotenks so you can't use the fight as a strength indicator for Gotenks. Just because someone survives means nothing. (the H-word) survived Perfect Cell, he also survived Kid Boo, while Vegeta Ssj2 also survived Kid Boo, even in his base form, or Trunks surviving Super Boo.

In the anime, we do, and we're talking about BOG anyway. While it's not 100% concrete proof of him being that strong, it's another bit of evidence in support of it, so your "that can't be the case, otherwise base Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta" 'argument' still has no weight behind it. Tou're supposed to say "By your logic, something totally nonsensical is true", rather than "by your logic, what is repeatedly stated and shown to be true is true".

I guess Kid Buu also kept changing his power level. Or Super Buu when he attacked Trunks in his Base form.

Yes, that's exactly what they did. Otherwise they would have killed several of the people they fought instantly. Same thing with Beerus; that slap should have killed Bulma, for example. His punches should have killed Vegeta too, since his suppressed power level was high enough for him to tank Vegeta's Galick Gun and not give a shit.

I don't think that the 'Beerus changing his power level' is a very good argument. Android 18 cannot be sensed, so Beerus couldn't change his power level for her. Even if you argue that Beerus saw her movements, I can argue that his back was turned, so he couldn't of -unless you believe he has eyes on the back of his head.

These guys don't even need to see you to track your movements. They can sense faint movements in the air.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P11.1
Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…”

The feats are there to show us who is stronger than who.

Goku Ssj3 > Buuhan > Buutenks >= Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks Ssj

Basically

This is totally laughable. Promotional material stated Gohan to be above the pure saiyans, Gotenks is still confident against Beerus after Gohan and Vegeta lose, no reference is ever made to Buuhan and Buutenks (what the fuck? Where does that even come from?), Goku and Vegeta never gain power that fast from training after Cell, and Vegeta says Beerus is way stronger than he thought only after seeing Gotenks lose. Not to mention, if we're playing the feat game and ignoring statements, Vegeta > Gotenks > Gohan > Buu > Goku. The only people who performed worse than Goku are Ten, 18, and Piccolo.

SS Gotenks > SS3 Goku > SS2 Vegeta

That's what's quite clearly implied. Put Gohan anywhere behind Gotenks depending on how seriously you take his performance (unlike everybody else, he was actually able to grab Beerus, and wasn't critically wounded by a kick and headbutt), and whether or not you take into account the promotional statement labeling him as stronger than pure saiyans.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

At the end of the day, Rageta is still the most powerful guy there outside of Super Saiyan God Goku. Gohan and Gotenks stopped being relevant since the Boo saga.

[h0kuten]

At the end of the day, Rageta is still the most powerful guy there outside of Super Saiyan God Goku. Gohan and Gotenks stopped being relevant since the Boo saga.

This is obviously irrefutable.

Regardless, I'll continue to follow the feats that show Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks & Gohan, even before the rage boost. If Dragonball Super -this Sunday, conforms to the idea, than it's basically a fact.

[RandomGuy96]

Regardless, I'll continue to follow the feats that show Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks & Gohan, even before the rage boost. If Dragonball Super -this Sunday, conforms to the idea, than it's basically a fact.

Yet, not the feats that show him (and Gotenks, Gohan, and Buu) to be stronger than Goku, apparently. Or the statements that place Gotenks as stronger than any of them.

Nope, it'd just be the anime being stupid again, like when SS/SS2 Vegeta gained the upper hand against SS3 Gotenks in Buu's body. It's only sixth months after the Buu arc.

At the end of the day, Rageta is still the most powerful guy there outside of Super Saiyan God Goku.

I don't agree with that. Him punching Beerus repeatedly doesn't mean anything other than that his power increased quickly and suddenly enough to surprise Beerus, since Beerus was shifting his power level ridiculously during that scene (from human level, to moderately above regular Vegeta, to way above Rageta). He was also only ever noted to surpass Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

But Gohan and Gotenks doing absolutely nothing....,means something?

He was stated to surpass Goku because Goku was the strongest one on earth. Gohan? Not relevant enough to be mentioned. Gotenks? Same. Everyone is all (obviously unaware of his encounter with Beers) hype that Goku is back from Kaio's world because they thought he'd make a difference.

[RandomGuy96]

But Gohan and Gotenks doing absolutely nothing....,means something?

We're not given reason to believe that their position relative to Goku has changed since the Buu arc, and Gotenks' defeat causes Vegeta to say Beerus is stronger than he thought.

He was stated to surpass Goku because Goku was the strongest one on earth. Gohan? Not relevant enough to be mentioned. Gotenks? Same. Everyone is all (obviously unaware of his encounter with Beers) hype that Goku is back from Kaio's world because they thought he'd make a difference.

No he wasn't. There's no reason for Vegeta to be surprised at Beerus's strength if he is.

Except, even if he was stronger than them (which he wasn't), they'd have no reason to believe he could make a difference with his own power. Rageta was explicitly acknowledged as stronger than SS3 Goku. Still couldn't do anything to Beerus. So they're obviously "hype" for a different reason. What happened last time Goku showed up while a super powerful villain was curb-stomping everyone?

[singsing]

But Gohan and Gotenks doing absolutely nothing....,means something?

He was stated to surpass Goku because Goku was the strongest one on earth. Gohan? Not relevant enough to be mentioned. Gotenks? Same. Everyone is all (obviously unaware of his encounter with Beers) hype that Goku is back from Kaio's world because they thought he'd make a difference.

Vegeta knew Goku lost in 2 hits, why would he be surprised he 1 shot every else if they were weaker than Goku? It'd be more like "damn, Kakarot was defeated in only two blows... our sons will easily be defeated as well." Nope, instead he was like "HOLY SHIT Gohan and Gotenks lost that easily?"

[h0kuten]

There is no evidence supporting Gohan being stronger than Vegeta. Yet feats do exist that prove the opposite.

I'll go with the evidence.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

After seeing Gohan get thrashed, this prompted Vegeta to challenge Beers alone. When Gotenks was about to fight Beers, Vegeta already knew he was going to get his ass kicked. He never said anything about being surprised Gohan and Gotenks were defeated--just surprised that Beers dominated all of them the way he did. Seeing Beers' power up close and hearing about it via Kaio aren't exactly the same. The only thing that really shocked Vegeta was Beers easily defeating Goku.

In the end, which Saiyans were acknowledged by Beers?

[RandomGuy96]

After seeing Gohan get thrashed, this prompted Vegeta to challenge Beers alone.

He acknowledged it was futile before he did so.

When Gotenks was about to fight Beers, Vegeta already knew he was going to get his ass kicked. He never said anything about being surprised Gohan and Gotenks were defeated--just surprised that Beers dominated all of them the way he did.

Exactly. He didn't think they'd win to begin with, but he was surprised by how easily they were taken down. But why would be he surprised to begin with, if Goku was the strongest, and he got taken down with a flick and a chop? If Goku was the strongest one there, he'd have absolutely no reason to say that Beerus was stronger than he thought he'd be, since nothing he did would be unexpected for someone who could easily take down Goku. Logically, at least one person there must have been stronger than Goku... and it obviously wasn't Vegeta, since he's acknowledged as weaker than Goku prior to getting angry.

Seeing Beers' power up close and hearing about it via Kaio aren't exactly the same. The only thing that really shocked Vegeta was Beers easily defeating Goku.

Except he explicitly said he never thought Beerus could be so powerful, after seeing Gotenks lose.

In the end, which Saiyans were acknowledged by Beers?

The one who was a SSG, and the one who multiplied his power quickly out of nowhere. Not that it matters, since he was judging them by their potential.

[h0kuten]

Goku impressed Beerus before SSJG and so did Vegeta.

Vegeta already knows Gotenks will loose. He said so. Therefore he was surprised when Gotenks lost.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He acknowledged it was futile before he did so.

He does the same when Gotenks tries to fight Beers, too.

Exactly. He didn't think they'd win to begin with, but he was surprised by how easily they were taken down.

And why didn't he think they'd win to begin with? He can't sense Beers, so what convinced him they were no match for Beers before the battle even begins? Oh, right. It was Goku's effortless defeat.

But why would be he surprised to begin with, if Goku was the strongest, and he got taken down with a flick and a chop?

It doesn't matter. Based on the fact that Goku had such a worthless effort against Beers, Vegeta already knew everyone else on earth was finished. So much for Gohan and Gotenks being far outta his league when it's clear they have no chance as well.

If Goku was the strongest one there, he'd have absolutely no reason to say that Beerus was stronger than he thought he'd be, since nothing he did would be unexpected for someone who could easily take down Goku.

Guys are always acknowledged as being stronger than expected throughout the series. You're taking this one thing to mean something when it's only referring to Beers' utter domination of the group as a whole. He knew none of them could even touch Beers, but seeing that display up close made it easier to comprehend. Vegeta saw Super Saiyan 3 Goku from otherworld while fighting Fat Boo, but was only able to fully understand the depths of his power when he was there watching him fight Kid Boo.

Logically, at least one person there must have been stronger than Goku... and it obviously wasn't Vegeta, since he's acknowledged as weaker than Goku prior to getting angry.

No one on earth was stronger than Goku. Vegeta was already convinced they'd all be history if Beers even got slightly pissed off. That was his whole point of trying to avoid angering him. Goku's defeat alone was the reason. Vegeta's reaction to Goku being defeated with ease was bigger than any other reaction he showed when Beers defeated everyone.

Except he explicitly said he never thought Beerus could be so powerful, after seeing Gotenks lose.

Which was in response to Beers utter domination to them as a group and not a single person. Vegeta never specified Gotenks' defeat as anything special, especially when he knew he was going to get rolled before he even engages Beers.

The power of Goku and Vegeta was what Beers acknowledged in the end. Gohan and Gotenks? Not remotely relevant.