I doubt that. Also, Goku has won against other people than Freeza. Tao Pai Pai, the entire Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr, and Boo. I'm probably missing some too. So no, Toriyama doesn't just let Goku win only against Freeza.TheGmGoken wrote:*raises hand*Polyphase Avatron wrote:SSJG Goku losing to Beerus.
Who saw that coming?
As soon as I learn Toriyama is writing the movie I knew Goku would lose. Toriyama never lets Goku win unless it's Freeza.
Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Last edited by ShadowDude112 on Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tanooki Kuribo wrote:If Toriyama joined Kanzenshuu, he'd probably forget his login name and password.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I mean, you're pretty open about looking at cartoon porn. Why would you do that? It's fiction. The proportions of these women are not possible to reach in reality.JacobYBM wrote:No, why would it? It's fiction. The strength of the characters is not possible to reach in reality.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Future Trunks debut easily takes the cake.
A guy comes from nowhere, knows how to turn ssj too (which was something rare back then) and kills Freeza/King Cold easily.
The guy turns out to be Vegeta/Bulma son that came from the Future.
11/10 Best plot twist ever. No one saw that one coming.
A guy comes from nowhere, knows how to turn ssj too (which was something rare back then) and kills Freeza/King Cold easily.
The guy turns out to be Vegeta/Bulma son that came from the Future.
11/10 Best plot twist ever. No one saw that one coming.
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
1. The fact that he didn't know the full extent of Android #20's abilities. Piccolo even said that Vegeta allowed #19 to drain his power for him to confirm the extent. #20 was right in front of Piccolo and said he'll take action if he tries to interfere. Piccolo is the type of person who'll take the safest route and faking his death was the safest route. It would help because, like I said, he'd catch them off guard.rereboy wrote:Put what into consideration? He was trying to save Goku and then even "complains" that Vegeta "ruined" his plan. How exactly him pretending that #20 had hurt him would help Goku? It makes no sense whatsoever! This weird logic is obviously a retcon by Toriyama who initially had #20 be much stronger and then changed his mind, but he had already made Piccolo fall under his attack, so he tried to explain it with that, despite still making no sense. The problems in the writing are obvious.TheUltimateVegito wrote:
Piccolo had no idea how strong Android #20 was at that point. He was planning on attacking Android 19 without giving Android 20 time to react, he also didn't know the full extent of #20's Ki absorption capabilities until Vegeta defeated #19 so he had to have put that into consideration as well.
You are missing the point. Bulma was surprised that it was Dr. Gero and acted like Future Trunks hadn't provided that info, because, if he did, why didn't she mentioned she knew where his lab was when Goku and Piccolo told them what Trunks had said or at least suggested that she knew where to look for that info? The whole scene plays out like pretty much like she didn't now it was dr Gero and is just seems weird/awkward. It doesn't really make sense. The world of Future Trunks just makes the matter worse because if present Bulma knew, Future Bulma should also know, so why didn't she send Gohan or Trunks to the lab in search of clues once they realized the androids had been made by Gero? Also, they had three years of warning so not knowing the exact location wouldn't matter as they had plenty of time.Bulma didn't know the exact location of the lab, it's very possible that Trunks searched for the lab but didn't find it which led to them giving up. Remember that Bulma wasn't sure if Dr. Gero's lab was still there and believed that Dr. Gero could've potentially moved somewhere else. The lab is a secret lab hidden in a terrain that's easy to hide in, even Piccolo pointed out how good of a hiding place the area is. Also, Bulma's knowledge of the lab explains why the Trunks from Cell's timeline was able to deactivate the Androids, because he must've found the lab and acquired the shutdown device.
Gohan, seeing Dende about to be murdered, and with no chance of beating Dodoria, Zarbon and Freeza, still acted and attacked because no one would.Gohan's character up to that point was more than enough build-up. Gohan is the only Z-Fighter who isn't a fighter at heart, and can loose control and kill someone accidentally. The whole point of the Gohan up to the Cell Games was for him to be a better protector than Goku, and the events of the Cell Games greatly contributed to that. I'd much rather have Gohan's stance on pointless battles be saved as a surprise/plot twist for the Cell Games than it being made obvious. Gohan's actions during the Cell Games was a showcase of his maturity/grow. During the Namek arc he didn't care much for the odds when attacking (e.g Dodoria) but he then learned the hard way that constantly attacking a superior opponent would just lead to defeat when he fought Recoome. He's failure at getting past Cell the first time made him realize that he had to get fully angry to get past him and that constantly attacking Cell like he did against Recoome won't help any and could lead to death. The whole point of the Cell Games was that it was a unique situation for Gohan and by the end of it he truly became the best protector of earth both in mind and in power.
Gohan, seeing Piccolo about to die at the hands of third from Freeza, and with no chance of beating Freeza, attacked to defend him, because no one would.
Gohan, at the Cell games, seeing his friends and family being tortured and about to die, is frozen in place, without acting, after only trying to hit Cell twice before he started attacking his family and friends.
It's inconsistent and almost seems like a regression in his character, after the speech he game his mother in order to go to Namek. Such a change required build-up to explain it properly, to develop it, but there's nothing. Instead, it feels that Gohan acts that way just to prolong the drama, not because of his character.
2. I think you missed the point of the scene. Bulma not mentioning she knows the area doesn't make much of a difference because Goku, Vegeta and the others turned down the entire idea of searching for the lab. Bulma even said that she'll no longer bug them about the idea after Krillin gave his reason for turning down the offer as well.
3. You missed my point. The speech was necessary to show how strongly he wanted to fight for others, but there was no need to explain why Gohan would take a more wise approach in the Cell Games because that in itself shows how Gohan has matured thanks to past events. His failure to get past Cell after his attempt to attack him was enough for him to realize the gap in powers. If his attempt to attack Cell during the Cell Jr assault worked (Or at least went similar to Third Form Frieza) he'd have definitely continued with the attack.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
You can doubt that all you want. But I made prediction that he would lost. If you don't believe me then that's fine. I believe I even posted it here (I may have not though). Obviously you took my "only beat Freeza" statement way to seriously. Freeza is indeed the last time Goku beat someone by himself and the rest of your examples are from Dragonball. When this is a Z movie with Toriyama written all over it. Toriyama likes to shock his audience. Wasn't all that shocked that he lost.ShadowDude112 wrote:I doubt that. Also, Goku has won against other people than Freeza. Tao Pai Pai, the entire Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Jr, and Boo. I'm probably missing some too. So no, Toriyama doesn't just let Goku win only against Freeza.TheGmGoken wrote:*raises hand*Polyphase Avatron wrote:SSJG Goku losing to Beerus.
Who saw that coming?
As soon as I learn Toriyama is writing the movie I knew Goku would lose. Toriyama never lets Goku win unless it's Freeza.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
King Piccolo killing Shenlong after his wish was granted for him to be restored to his physical prime. Good God, I was not expecting that.
Goku being revealed as an alien and Krillin being murdered are also my favorite plot twists.
Goku being revealed as an alien and Krillin being murdered are also my favorite plot twists.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
In those other situations, Gohan acted on an impulse and didn't even realize his power spiked the way it did. During the Cell Games, he was fully aware of his latent abilities, but had no idea how to bring them out at will. While his friends were being tortured, he completely froze because he knew his dad was relying on him to bring out a power he had no idea how to (and was scared to!) in order to save everyone. The spotlight was on him, and he was letting everyone down. Do you really think he'd stay like a statue if his father was the one in the center stage fighting Cell, and the Jrs. were harming his friends? Of course not.Gohan, seeing Dende about to be murdered, and with no chance of beating Dodoria, Zarbon and Freeza, still acted and attacked because no one would.
Gohan, seeing Piccolo about to die at the hands of third from Freeza, and with no chance of beating Freeza, attacked to defend him, because no one would.
Gohan, at the Cell games, seeing his friends and family being tortured and about to die, is frozen in place, without acting, after only trying to hit Cell twice before he started attacking his family and friends.
It's inconsistent and almost seems like a regression in his character, after the speech he game his mother in order to go to Namek. Such a change required build-up to explain it properly, to develop it, but there's nothing. Instead, it feels that Gohan acts that way just to prolong the drama, not because of his character.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
The Saibaiman's suicide attack. Yamcha's sudden and unexpected death is a great scene that sets the tone for the rest of the arc. The Dragon Team's training wasn't enough and they are in over their heads.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Krillin's death. It's incredibly sudden, and a huge whiplash in terms of tone.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Going to train at Shenlong's place doesn't make Goku alive. We saw that Shenlong went to the AfterLife in the end.Cetra wrote:No, she didn't. She even said, she hoped that he was just gone with Shenlong, implying she hoped he didn't die. And even if, Masako Nozawa has nothing to do with the story.
And while she has nothing to do with the story, she is working with those that are actually involved with the story, so she should know what's going on.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
I was on the edge of my seat watching the Android Saga the first time. M. Night Shyamalan couldn't pull off twists any better.
Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Wow... I can't believe no one has mentioned what I believe is the funniest (and one of the first) plot twists in the series"
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
He's been perfectly aware that he has rage boost and much power inside him ever since Piccolo told him that and showed him that, and then trained him, and he obviously realized that that happened in those situations because he saw those enemies, who were so much stronger than him, struggle against him and he even mentions that fact to Cell. So, no.fadeddreams5 wrote:
In those other situations, Gohan acted on an impulse and didn't even realize his power spiked the way it did.
Like he was previously, as I've just said.During the Cell Games, he was fully aware of his latent abilities,
That didn't stop him before from trying, against all odds, to save the people who were about to die, no matter how impossible it would be for Gohan to defeat the enemy. While saving Dende he also didn't know that... while saving Piccolo, he also didn't know that... But, on the Cell games, suddenly that's a problem and Gohan is too scared and too stupid to realize that every other time he did, it happened while he was actually trying to save people and attack, instead of just sitting still... so, what he does? He sits still...but had no idea how to bring them out at will.
He also knew that there was no one else to save Dende and Piccolo, and that didn't stop him at all. He didn't care about spotlights... But suddenly, on the cell games, that matters...While his friends were being tortured, he completely froze because he knew his dad was relying on him to bring out a power he had no idea how to (and was scared to!) in order to save everyone. The spotlight was on him, and he was letting everyone down.
Was there Goku on the center stage when he saved Dende? No. Was there Goku on the center stage when he saved Piccolo? No. That's exactly what happens once the Cell Jrs start fighting Goku and the others. At that moment, the only fight going on is between the Cell Jrs and the gang, they are the ones on stage fighting, while Gohan is on the sidelines not fighting. Does he act like he did previously, when something like that happened? No. He just does nothing besides stand there hesitating and being scared.Do you really think he'd stay like a statue if his father was the one in the center stage fighting Cell, and the Jrs. were harming his friends? Of course not.
You are telling me that somehow, Gohan feeling the spotlight, acts that way, when he has been told that the fate of the whole world will depend on him and his power ever since he was 4 years old. And yet, despite that knowledge and the knowledge of his inner power, he has pretty much always come to rescue of those who needed it, without hesitation, without caring how much stronger the enemy is... The only comparable time is when Gohan hesitated facing Nappa, but he got over that in that very fight... You are basically arguing that it makes perfect sense for Gohan's character to basically regress to how he was when he faced Nappa for the first time, forgetting how he surpassed that, and all the other times after that where all the traces of that hesitation in decisive moments are gone. That somehow, that change, that inconsistency, without proper build-up and development isn't poor writing... I think that it obviously is.
How does pretending to faint helps Piccolo to know 20's abilities? Actually fighting #20 or #19 while trying to get to Goku would help Piccolo understand their abilities. Pretending to faint after one attack does nothing of the sort and makes no sense at all.TheUltimateVegito wrote:
1. The fact that he didn't know the full extent of Android #20's abilities. Piccolo even said that Vegeta allowed #19 to drain his power for him to confirm the extent. #20 was right in front of Piccolo and said he'll take action if he tries to interfere. Piccolo is the type of person who'll take the safest route and faking his death was the safest route. It would help because, like I said, he'd catch them off guard.
How does that make it logical for Bulma to be surprised by Dr Gero like she didn't knew about him? Even if you interpret the scene as Bulma just being surprised that it was Dr. Gero himself there, just like I said, if she had the info regarding the lab or had access to that info, what made sense would be for her to tell them the area where his lab was located as they were told what Future Trunks revealed, while trying to convince them to take him out instead of waiting for the androids. Then, three years later, there would be no need for Bulma to stupidly appear in the battle, #20 would just create a diversion or something to escape, Future Trunks would tell them that those weren't the androids he remembered, and Piccolo would remember what Bulma said about the area where the lab is, and once they got there and found the lab just like they did, the gang would learn that #20 was actually Dr Gero himself from his interactions with #17 and #18. Now, THAT would make sense and wouldn't feel as much as poor writing. But even that still wouldn't explain why Future Bulma hadn't made Future Gohan or Future Trunks investigate the lab before thinking of creating a time machine.2. I think you missed the point of the scene. Bulma not mentioning she knows the area doesn't make much of a difference because Goku, Vegeta and the others turned down the entire idea of searching for the lab. Bulma even said that she'll no longer bug them about the idea after Krillin gave his reason for turning down the offer as well.
Gohan knew about the gap in powers and that he couldn't possibly hope to beat Freeza and his minions. He still attacked with all his might, to save Dende and Piccolo.3. You missed my point. The speech was necessary to show how strongly he wanted to fight for others, but there was no need to explain why Gohan would take a more wise approach in the Cell Games because that in itself shows how Gohan has matured thanks to past events. His failure to get past Cell after his attempt to attack him was enough for him to realize the gap in powers.
He tried to attack before and managed to make Cell fall down and even make him bleed with just a kick. So, he knew that he could fight Cell. Did he continue the attack? No, he just stood there, watching him get up. And once the Cell jrs were torturing everybody, did he try anything else besides a generic attack on Cell? Did he try Ki blasts? Did he try getting past Cell and attacking the Cell jrs? No. He just stood there, terrified of the gap in power between him and Cell when, previously, he didn't care about those gaps and just attacked and tried with all his heart and might when people were in danger.If his attempt to attack Cell during the Cell Jr assault worked (Or at least went similar to Third Form Freeza) he'd have definitely continued with the attack.
Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Androids getting absorbed by Cell
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Got to go with Trunks. Goku being an alien was never that much of a surprise to me (him having a brother was). But another Saiyan appearing all of a sudden, able to transform into a Super Saiyan, and coming from the future? That was surprising and interesting.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
He was counting on the surprise factor instead of simply hitting 19 with pure power.How does pretending to faint helps Piccolo to know 20's abilities? Actually fighting #20 or #19 while trying to get to Goku would help Piccolo understand their abilities. Pretending to faint after one attack does nothing of the sort and makes no sense at all.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
So, he was hoping that pretending to faint would distract #20 and #19 so much that they didn't pay attention to Goku...? Exactly why would that work and how would that be more effective in distracting them than actually attacking and fighting them, especially once he realized that #20's attack wasn't that powerful? There's no logical reason at all and seems like a pretty stupid course of action for someone like Piccolo. If he wanted to rescue Goku, he should have found a way to distract #20 and get pass him and kick #19 off Goku like Vegeta did, or, keep #20 busy while someone else, like Gohan, kicked #19 off Goku. He could even inform Gohan of his intentions telepathically just like he did shortly after when #20 grabbed him.ABED wrote:He was counting on the surprise factor instead of simply hitting 19 with pure power.How does pretending to faint helps Piccolo to know 20's abilities? Actually fighting #20 or #19 while trying to get to Goku would help Piccolo understand their abilities. Pretending to faint after one attack does nothing of the sort and makes no sense at all.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
1. What if Android #20 had some unknown ability in regards to Ki absorption that would make attacking #20 directly lead to failure? Catching them off guard was the most safe/easiest option.rereboy wrote:How does pretending to faint helps Piccolo to know 20's abilities? Actually fighting #20 or #19 while trying to get to Goku would help Piccolo understand their abilities. Pretending to faint after one attack does nothing of the sort and makes no sense at all.TheUltimateVegito wrote:
1. The fact that he didn't know the full extent of Android #20's abilities. Piccolo even said that Vegeta allowed #19 to drain his power for him to confirm the extent. #20 was right in front of Piccolo and said he'll take action if he tries to interfere. Piccolo is the type of person who'll take the safest route and faking his death was the safest route. It would help because, like I said, he'd catch them off guard.
How does that make it logical for Bulma to be surprised by Dr Gero like she didn't knew about him? Even if you interpret the scene as Bulma just being surprised that it was Dr. Gero himself there, just like I said, if she had the info regarding the lab or had access to that info, what made sense would be for her to tell them the area where his lab was located as they were told what Future Trunks revealed, while trying to convince them to take him out instead of waiting for the androids. Then, three years later, there would be no need for Bulma to stupidly appear in the battle, #20 would just create a diversion or something to escape, Future Trunks would tell them that those weren't the androids he remembered, and Piccolo would remember what Bulma said about the area where the lab is, and once they got there and found the lab just like they did, the gang would learn that #20 was actually Dr Gero himself from his interactions with #17 and #18. Now, THAT would make sense and wouldn't feel as much as poor writing. But even that still wouldn't explain why Future Bulma hadn't made Future Gohan or Future Trunks investigate the lab before thinking of creating a time machine.2. I think you missed the point of the scene. Bulma not mentioning she knows the area doesn't make much of a difference because Goku, Vegeta and the others turned down the entire idea of searching for the lab. Bulma even said that she'll no longer bug them about the idea after Krillin gave his reason for turning down the offer as well.
Gohan knew about the gap in powers and that he couldn't possibly hope to beat Freeza and his minions. He still attacked with all his might, to save Dende and Piccolo.3. You missed my point. The speech was necessary to show how strongly he wanted to fight for others, but there was no need to explain why Gohan would take a more wise approach in the Cell Games because that in itself shows how Gohan has matured thanks to past events. His failure to get past Cell after his attempt to attack him was enough for him to realize the gap in powers.
He tried to attack before and managed to make Cell fall down and even make him bleed with just a kick. So, he knew that he could fight Cell. Did he continue the attack? No, he just stood there, watching him get up. And once the Cell jrs were torturing everybody, did he try anything else besides a generic attack on Cell? Did he try Ki blasts? Did he try getting past Cell and attacking the Cell jrs? No. He just stood there, terrified of the gap in power between him and Cell when, previously, he didn't care about those gaps and just attacked and tried with all his heart and might when people were in danger.If his attempt to attack Cell during the Cell Jr assault worked (Or at least went similar to Third Form Freeza) he'd have definitely continued with the attack.
2. Bulma, like the others, had no idea that there were more Androids, she had no idea how the events would unfold and didn't know that they'd end up wanting to find the lab. It's easy to tell that Bulma thought telling them about the lab was pointless because they wouldn't try to search for it. Also, Bulma was just surprised that Dr. Gero was one of the Androids. I don't see the problem.
3. The difference between Cell and Frieza was that Cell was on guard for Gohan's attempt (i.e Because he can sense Ki, unlike Frieza). However, when Gohan attacked Frieza he caught him off guard and was able to continue the attack. The Cell that bled was more suppressed in comparison to the one that stopped Gohan's attack during the Cell Jrs assault, hence why Gohan was in shock. Even Cell himself pretty much said that he has to get fully mad to even hope to get past him. It's easy to believe that Cell would be able to raise his power level on the fly, he even raised his speed on the fly during his fight with Gohan.
Last edited by TheUltimateVegito on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Android #20 was standing in front of the Z-Fighters, and focused his attention on them. Android #19 would be too busy absorbing Goku's energy to pay attention to Piccolo. I'm pretty sure kicking #19 is the equivalent of rescuing Goku and Piccolo would've done it in such breakneck speed that by the time #20 turns around or focuses his attention on Goku it'd be too late. Also, Gohan checking to see if Piccolo's is dead or not only made it all the more believable, there was no need for Piccolo to waste his time telling Gohan telepathically about his plan. Piccolo also didn't know if #20 was holding back or not.rereboy wrote:So, he was hoping that pretending to faint would distract #20 and #19 so much that they didn't pay attention to Goku...? Exactly why would that work and how would that be more effective in distracting them than actually attacking and fighting them, especially once he realized that #20's attack wasn't that powerful? There's no logical reason at all and seems like a pretty stupid course of action for someone like Piccolo. If he wanted to rescue Goku, he should have found a way to distract #20 and get pass him and kick #19 off Goku like Vegeta did, or, keep #20 busy while someone else, like Gohan, kicked #19 off Goku. He could even inform Gohan of his intentions telepathically just like he did shortly after when #20 grabbed him.ABED wrote:He was counting on the surprise factor instead of simply hitting 19 with pure power.How does pretending to faint helps Piccolo to know 20's abilities? Actually fighting #20 or #19 while trying to get to Goku would help Piccolo understand their abilities. Pretending to faint after one attack does nothing of the sort and makes no sense at all.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
And how is pretending to faint supposed to "catch them off guard" and help Goku? Maybe if Piccolo had told Gohan or someone else to try to sneak past #20 once he pretended to faint but did he do that? Was that his intention? No. So... Absolutely no sense.TheUltimateVegito wrote:
1. What if Android #20 had some unknown ability in regards to Ki absorption that would make attacking #20 directly lead to failure? Catching them off guard was the most sure/easiest option.
The problem is the writing. Because it was done poorly, Toriyama had to make Bulma speed off into the battlefield with her baby claiming that she wants to see the androids (which is incredibly stupid) just so that she can then tell them the area to look for the lab, and Toriyama completely forgot that if Bulma has that knowledge, then Future Bulma also should have that knowledge and thus Trunks should also know about it because it makes no sense for Future Bulma to not have, at least, told him about it, if not actually sent him there in search of clues in the future. So, instead, we just have an awkward scene when we actually think a little about it.2. Bulma, like the others, had no idea that there were more Androids, she had no idea how the events would unfold and didn't know that they'd end up wanting to find the lab. It's easy to tell that Bulma thought telling them about the lab was pointless because they wouldn't try to search for it. Also, Bulma was just surprised that Dr. Gero was one of the Androids. I don't see the problem.
So, in short, Gohan gave up after one generic attack because he thought Cell was very strong, like I stated. Did Gohan give up when he was fighting Reecome? No, he kept trying and trying and only stopped when Reccome broke his neck. Where is that Gohan in the Cell games? Nowhere to be found, there's only one Gohan that, for some reason, gives up after one generic attack, despite their family and friends being tortured, and stands still, watching, filled with fear over the fact that Cell is very strong.3. The difference between Cell and Freeza was that Cell was on guard for Gohan's attempt (i.e Because he can sense Ki, unlike Freeza). However, when Gohan attacked Freeza he caught him off guard and was able to continue the attack. The Cell that bled was more suppressed in comparison to the one that stopped Gohan's attack during the Cell Jrs assault, hence why Gohan was in shock. Even Cell himself pretty much said that he has to get fully mad to even hope to get past him. It's easy to believe that Cell would be able to raise his power level on the fly, he even raised his speed on the fly during his fight with Gohan.
Also, there's nothing telling us that Cell was more suppressed when Gohan made him fall down than when Gohan attacked him later. That's just a baseless assumption.
What are you talking about? You aren't making any sense! Answer what I asked. What sequence of events was Piccolo's fainting supposed to trigger that could help Goku?TheUltimateVegito wrote: Android #20 was standing in front of the Z-Fighters, and focused his attention on them. Android #19 would be too busy absorbing Goku's energy to pay attention to Piccolo. I'm pretty sure kicking #19 is the equivalent of rescuing Goku and Piccolo would've done it in such breakneck speed that by the time #20 turns around or focuses his attention on Goku it'd be too late. Also, Gohan checking to see if Piccolo's is dead or not only made it all the more believable, there was no need for Piccolo to waste his time telling Gohan telepathically about his plan. Piccolo also didn't know if #20 was holding back or not.
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Re: Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3rereboy wrote:He's been perfectly aware that he has rage boost and much power inside him ever since Piccolo told him that and showed him that, and then trained him, and he obviously realized that that happened in those situations because he saw those enemies, who were so much stronger than him, struggle against him and he even mentions that fact to Cell. So, no.
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”
He 's only ever been semi-aware of it. Whenever he activated those hidden powers, he wasn't fully conscious of it or how he did it. If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much proven on-screen too, when Piccolo hurled him to a mountain, he obliterated it, and was later puzzled over what happened to his surroundings.
This was a situation where his father was depending on him to use this latent ability to save the day and kill someone he has no direct connection with. It was the first time he was dependent on it and internally focused on activating it at will.
All those other times, he acted on an impulse/instinctively, and subconsciously powered up. This time, he was conflicted because he knew he had to bring out those powers at will, had no idea how to do that, and was scared to because, again, all those other times, he wasn't even fully aware he was doing it. It's not in his nature to become that fierce savage; it's randomly occurred every other time.That didn't stop him before from trying, against all odds, to save the people who were about to die, no matter how impossible it would be for Gohan to defeat the enemy. While saving Dende he also didn't know that... while saving Piccolo, he also didn't know that... But, on the Cell games, suddenly that's a problem and Gohan is too scared and too stupid to realize that every other time he did, it happened while he was actually trying to save people and attack, instead of just sitting still... so, what he does? He sits still...
Well, I'm not arguing that the writing is good. I agree that there was a poor lack of build-up. However, I disagree that the character was altered, changed, or regressed. The problem with the scene is exactly that: there was no proper build up to Gohan's development and stance on fighting.Was there Goku on the center stage when he saved Dende? No. Was there Goku on the center stage when he saved Piccolo? No. That's exactly what happens once the Cell Jrs start fighting Goku and the others. At that moment, the only fight going on is between the Cell Jrs and the gang, they are the ones on stage fighting, while Gohan is on the sidelines not fighting. Does he act like he did previously, when something like that happened? No. He just does nothing besides stand there hesitating and being scared.
You are telling me that somehow, Gohan feeling the spotlight, acts that way, when he has been told that the fate of the whole world will depend on him and his power ever since he was 4 years old. And yet, despite that knowledge and the knowledge of his inner power, he has pretty much always come to rescue of those who needed it, without hesitation, without caring how much stronger the enemy is... The only comparable time is when Gohan hesitated facing Nappa, but he got over that in that very fight... You are basically arguing that it makes perfect sense for Gohan's character to basically regress to how he was when he faced Nappa for the first time, forgetting how he surpassed that, and all the other times after that where all the traces of that hesitation in decisive moments are gone. That somehow, that change, that inconsistency, without proper build-up and development isn't poor writing... I think that it obviously is.
Against Frieza, he was not focused on bringing out a power; he just did it. During the Cell Games, he froze. All the pressure was on him. Everything. Before he could act on an impulse like usual, he knew he was the only person who could stop this creature by using an ability he's never drawn out at will before. For the first time, he witnessed his father give up, forcing everyone to depend only on him. He wanted to help, but he was internally focused on bringing out a power, which may have, ironically, blocked it from coming out because he was terrified of it. It took 16's death for him to break loose.
The writing wasn't stellar, but it's clear what Toriyama was trying to convey, which does not go against the character. What DOES go against Gohan's character was him nearly letting Super Perfect Cell blow up the Earth without even trying to stop him.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super










