Is the DragonBall Z anime "canon"?

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:13 pm

Thing is, some elements of the TV series come from the movies. So if you consider the movies to take place in a "different dimension", what does that make the TV series? Your "anime canon" would have to ignore some parts of the TV series... either that, or you'd have some 'splaining to do in order to include the movies (or some of them) in the TV series continuity, "different dimension" be damned.

That's where the whole problem lies, in my opinion: the concept of "canon" is already a pretty subjective notion in itself (it's not like Toriyama himself went out and explained what was "canon" and what wasn't), and an "anime canon" would be even more subjective: will you ignore parts of the TV series? If so, which ones? Or will you try and include the movies? All of them? Some of them? Which ones? How?

Yes, Akira Toriyama ONLY stated that the movies were in a different dimension.....but yet Toriyama took one of those movies to heart and even inserted it in his manga. He even CREATED most of the characters and wrote a few stories. So go figure........

Yes, you would have to ignore parts of the TV series, for example fillers that do NOT pertain to the regular storyline. Garlic Junior is ignored as well as Goku going to his Driver's ED classes. Filler's that do compliment Toriyama's storyline are always considered. For example Kid Buu in the manga...... when Kaoishin was talking about Buu was stated to have destroyed "Many planets"...but in the anime they go in depth and show Kid Buu destroying a galaxy. They go deeper into Goku's training (in Dragonball) with Mr. Popo showing you how to sense "spirit." Anime ADDED fight scenes between Vegetto and Super Buu 3 showing how powerful these two really are and showing the audience that these two are ABOVE the rest of the characters. Which the Manga fight barely even lasts two chapters.

My point is that the Dragonball Z Anime COMPLETED Toriyama's manga, explaining certain scenario's with MORE detail to TRY and give the audience a great reference point.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:58 pm

Hey at least it wasnt adapted by--

Gainax: Everything would have been done in stills, there'd be a whole bunch of live action scenes that have nothing to do with the plot and the last 5 episodes would leave you guessing what the hell just happened.

Peter Jackson: Goku would have been an angsty reluctant hero, 60% of the manga canon would have been cut out (he'd use time constraints as an excuse for the cuts), the remaining scenes would have been heavily altered, and there would be hundreds of episodes with contrived crap not found in the manga at all (despite the fact that he "didn't have room" for 60% of the Manga's scenes).

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:08 pm

Phenomenol wrote:
Thing is, some elements of the TV series come from the movies. So if you consider the movies to take place in a "different dimension", what does that make the TV series? Your "anime canon" would have to ignore some parts of the TV series... either that, or you'd have some 'splaining to do in order to include the movies (or some of them) in the TV series continuity, "different dimension" be damned.

That's where the whole problem lies, in my opinion: the concept of "canon" is already a pretty subjective notion in itself (it's not like Toriyama himself went out and explained what was "canon" and what wasn't), and an "anime canon" would be even more subjective: will you ignore parts of the TV series? If so, which ones? Or will you try and include the movies? All of them? Some of them? Which ones? How?
Yes, Akira Toriyama ONLY stated that the movies were in a different dimension.....but yet Toriyama took one of those movies to heart and even inserted it in his manga. He even CREATED most of the characters and wrote a few stories. So go figure........

Yes, you would have to ignore parts of the TV series, for example fillers that do NOT pertain to the regular storyline. Garlic Junior is ignored as well as Goku going to his Driver's ED classes. Filler's that do compliment Toriyama's storyline are always considered. For example Kid Buu in the manga...... when Kaoishin was talking about Buu was stated to have destroyed "Many planets"...but in the anime they go in depth and show Kid Buu destroying a galaxy. They go deeper into Goku's training (in Dragonball) with Mr. Popo showing you how to sense "spirit." Anime ADDED fight scenes between Vegetto and Super Buu 3 showing how powerful these two really are and showing the audience that these two are ABOVE the rest of the characters. Which the Manga fight barely even lasts two chapters.

My point is that the Dragonball Z Anime COMPLETED Toriyama's manga, explaining certain scenario's with MORE detail to TRY and give the audience a great reference point.

Just because Toriyama-sensei designed a few characters and came up with the base idea's for a few Fillers doesn't mean the Anime overwrites the Manga canon-wise. You can't pick and choose what is and isn't canon either and call it absolute. Quite frankly, it's all just a personal choice, so forcing it on anyone or calling one official is out of line and wrong. That's why Conan wisely chooses to approach in such a manner and taught me to do so as well.

Also, Toriyama-sensei didn't watch all of the Anime, so he doesn't know everything that happened. Undoubtedly, there are many Fillers he wouldn't have wanted in the manga, particularly redundant battle Filler that is only entertaining to watch once or twice, as well as the Bulma-crap episode. Still, we can't judge for him, but there are things in the Anime that blatantly wouldn't go with the Manga, hence the slight canonity separation.

Might I add, also, the Burdock was not a Movie character. He was from a TV Special, which is VERY MUCH part of the Anime and not an alternate movie universe.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:31 pm

Canon is something that was in the manga right. Non-canon is something that wasn't created by Toriyama and sometimes contradics canon.. I'm not saying these are what they mean. I'm trying to get this information together myself.

Could someone define these words when it comes to Dragonball (or anime/manga itself):

Filler

Canon

Non-canon
-Rick

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:37 pm

All and all, I feel that Toriyama's manga is the original story and Toei adapted it for thier own purposes keeping many of the same elements and plot points while adding their own ideas in the mix. They asked for input for the original author and used many of his suggestions. The anime parralels the manga at many areas. I compare it to when a story from one form of media gets tranfered to a different form of media (book to movie/television, Life story to movie/television) there are gonna be thing added, remove, and/or changed.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:41 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:Could someone define these words when it comes to Dragonball (or anime/manga itself):
Filler
Canon
Non-canon

I don't think you can come up with an "absolute" definition of "canon" (or "non-canon") when it comes to "Dragon Ball". The very notion of "Dragon Ball canon" itself is pretty much fan-made, so mileages may (or rather will) vary.

"Filler", on the other hand... I believe that's self-explanatory.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:41 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:For these events to contradict the manga, they'd have to simply not be possible. There would have to be an actual consistency problem.

Roshi not recognizing Goku when he meets him?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:46 pm

Rocketman wrote:Roshi not recognizing Goku when he meets him?

Bah. Could be explained away with a mere "that was a while ago."

But if that's not enough for you, I guess I can also play the Trunks card. Even if the mechanics of Trunks' time-travels are still subject to much debate, I think (hope?) we all agree that he always goes back to his own time-line. So...

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:59 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:"Filler", on the other hand... I believe that's self-explanatory.

Well, what I was trying to say with the whole filler part was asking if filler is often neglected because its, well, "busy work"? Busy work meaning its there just to take up time and that it doesn't exactly have to make sense? Seeing it from this way, could the existence of characters like Garlic Jr. be avoided all together in a "canon" universe? Removing him wouldn't affect any part of the manga but the fact that he's in the anime almost makes it like movies are part of the storyline. (So why would Piccolo be so shocked about Gohan's power against Raditz if Gohan used that power against Garlic Jr. the first time around)

-Rick

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:12 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:what I was trying to say with the whole filler part was asking if filler is often neglected because its, well, "busy work"? Busy work meaning its there just to take up time and that it doesn't exactly have to make sense?

Well... Yeah, that's pretty much what filler is, so...

Seeing it from this way, could the existence of characters like Garlic Jr. be avoided all together in a "canon" universe? Removing him wouldn't affect any part of the manga but the fact that he's in the anime almost makes it like movies are part of the storyline. (So why would Piccolo be so shocked about Gohan's power against Raditz if Gohan used that power against Garlic Jr. the first time around)

"Removing" an entire filler arc probably wouldn't be that difficult (I believe?), just a bit fastidious ("OK, so the first minutes of that episode are fine, but starting right there, it's not canon anymore!").
But that's not the only kind of filler there is...

Which is one of the reasons why I think we'd be better off just saying that "canon = manga", period.
Of course, there would still be a few issues here and there ("what's canon about Barduck? just his name, Freeza's comments and the two drawings of him in the manga? or the whole TV special?", "are the author's official comments canon?", "what's the status of the official manga-based guides?", "what about the author's notes for the anime staff?", etc)...

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:10 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Roshi not recognizing Goku when he meets him?
Bah. Could be explained away with a mere "that was a while ago."

Pretty much. Similar to how in Fack to the Future 1, they don't notice the similarity of their son to the guy who got them together.