Can the SSJ4 form be considered the true Super Saiyan state?

[Duo]

Non-Canon

Yeah, that's the one. Well I feel foolish.

I'm pretty picky about terminologies, so it's nothing personal. No harm done.

[the_abberration]

I remember seeing a Golden Ozaru in a flashback or some type of sequence that showed a supposed Super Saiyan before Goku actiually transformed into one on Namek. And this is kinda similar to his form before before he shrunk back down becomes what we today call SSJ4.

I know that many of the characters call the blond haired power-ups Super Saiyan forms, but I think that it's safe to say that they may be wrong. Especially since Vegeta called himself a Super Saiyan repeatedly.




On a little side note, considering that there's not much physical difference apperance wise between SSJ1 and SSJ2, could we call SSJ2 a fully charged SSJ. Inbetween the two levels we have USSJ1 and USSJ2, and to me SSJ2 fixes the cons of these.

If I understand your post correctly, I think I know where you are getting at (I think). Given that SSJ4 is the form Goku took when he still had a tail (compared to SSJ when he had no tail), it would fall in line with Vegeta's statement of the LSSJ controlling the form in a "transformed" state.

Up until GT, no one outside of the LSSJ ever had their tail to acheive SSJ form in this manner. I always thought when GT was being drafted, it was discussed how a Saiya-jin would go "super" if they still had a tail. This may explain why the transformation was so radically different (and the most powerful form) compared to the blond SSJ form.

Then again, if Brolly still had his tail, it blows this theory out of the water.

[Duo]

If I understand your post correctly, I think I know where you are getting at (I think). Given that SSJ4 is the form Goku took when he still had a tail (compared to SSJ when he had no tail), it would fall in line with Vegeta's statement of the LSSJ controlling the form in a "transformed" state.

Well, just keep in mind...

The talks about the "Super Saiyan" 1000 years ago having to be a Great Ape and destroying himself was all filler, so how serious are you willing to take it?

Also, Broli (or, rather, his clone) sports a tail in Movie 11 for sure, and there's no reason why his true incarnation wouldn't have one under all that dress. Another thing is that Toriyama-sensei's concept art for Super Saiyan level 3 shows Goku with a tail, so you can take that however you want.

[Payne222]

Well, wouldn't the "true" Super Saiya-Jin state be Legendary?

[Duo]

Well, wouldn't the "true" Super Saiya-Jin state be Legendary?

What was un-legendary about Goku becoming nigh fifty fold stronger and an equal or greater match for the greatest tyrant in the universe?

[Payne222]

Nothing, I'm just saying, wouldn't "Legendary" be the true Super Saiya-Jin as stated in the "Every 1,000 years a Super Saiya-Jin etc., etc.", right?

[Rocketman]

If I understand your post correctly, I think I know where you are getting at (I think). Given that SSJ4 is the form Goku took when he still had a tail (compared to SSJ when he had no tail), it would fall in line with Vegeta's statement of the LSSJ controlling the form in a "transformed" state.

Goku went [gold-haired] Super Saiyan several times with his tail.

[mAcChaos]

If I understand your post correctly, I think I know where you are getting at (I think). Given that SSJ4 is the form Goku took when he still had a tail (compared to SSJ when he had no tail), it would fall in line with Vegeta's statement of the LSSJ controlling the form in a "transformed" state.

Goku went [gold-haired] Super Saiyan several times with his tail.

In what? I don't remember this.

[Rocketman]

In what? I don't remember this.

GT, Super 17 Saga.

[Conan the SSJ]

Rocketman's right. Goku actually briefly fights Bebi-Vegeta after he returns with his tail at Super Saiyan 3, this level apparently alters the tail to a golden tone. Later on in the Super 17 arc when Goku fights 17 at Super Saiyan, his tail stays brown. This may indicate that you need to have gone all three Super levels before being capable of utilizing Golden Oozaru and subsequently Super Saiyan 4. Vegeta, as we all know, had the advantages that Bulma used an advanced Bruitz Wave device on him and he already knew how to control himself in the transformed state. Possibly because he could only go as far as Super Saiyan 2, he didn't go Golden Oozaru right away when being transformed, but his power built up in the magnified state enough and he was able to pull it off (blue eyes and all in contrast to Goku's near-demonic looking eyes).

[the_abberration]

Goku went [gold-haired] Super Saiyan several times with his tail.

True. However, the point I was trying to make, was that the LSSJ acheived this form by going Oozaru (meaning he would need his tail). As per Vegeta's explanation in the anime of the transformation. I know it is filler but it is anime continuity.

The only other instance of this is when Goku achevies SSJ4, which he needed his tail to do. Again IMHO I think the writers of GT my have used this point as a basis for the SSJ4 transformation.

The issue now becomes Vegeta's accuracy of the legend, since he lost his tail on Earth but claimed he was a SSJ. By his own recount of the legend he contradited himself.

[Conan the SSJ]

The issue now becomes Vegeta's accuracy of the legend, since he lost his tail on Earth but claimed he was a SSJ. By his own recount of the legend he contradited himself.

Keep in mind, this was coming from an arrogant Prince who was calling himself the "most powerful warrior in the universe" when he was barely equal to Kiwi.

[EvilLaughKid]

2 - Broly: although this could be debatable on many levels, I'm talking about the state, not the character. Broly is the only one who shows a unique state of Super Saiyan. He's the least probable candidate, IMO, even more if you consider that he is just an anomaly (or like is said in his backstory, a "mutant") in Saiyan evolution.

Before I start.
roodo rora da WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I read somewhere that Toriyama said that Goku could reach the same Legendary State that Brolly achieved, and that if he did, he'd be invincible.
Or somesuch.

Theoretically, we can looka at this matter in one of two ways.

The legend can truly only be reached by one, and thus is either not obtained in the series, or is the legendary state Brolly has.

The legend is the basic SSJ1, and that by surpassing this, Goku, Vegeta, and the half-saiyajin kids become the strongest saiyajin to have ever existed, most likely due to need. Saiyajin have never really been in the same situation, in which they die and are brought back, or are brought to near death so many times by such powerful enemies, that beyond Super Saiyajin was never reached by previous super saiyajin because they most likely only had one threat strong enough to face them in a life time. The Saiyajin in Dragon Ball just lucked out in a freak evolutionary set of conditions allowing them to surpass themselves time and time again.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

I read somewhere that Toriyama said that Goku could reach the same Legendary State that Brolly achieved, and that if he did, he'd be invincible.
Or somesuch.

That's very interesting, I've never heard such a thing be said anywhere. It really makes the legendary super saiyan not so legendary now, uh?

[Kaboom]

Well, since the thread is still going strong, I'd like to bring up a probably unoriginal idea that shoved it's way into my brain earlier this evening, and that is on the definition of the term "legend," and how it can often be misinterpreted. For the heck of it, and for possible reference, here's Dictionary.com's definition...

• leg·end /ˈlɛdʒənd/ [lej-uhnd] –noun
  1. a nonhistorical or unverifiable story handed down by tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical.
  2. the body of stories of this kind, esp. as they relate to a particular people, group, or clan

...Those two were the first and most applicable definitions in the list. I put emphasis on those two words because they're what I'm talking about. Records or stories of the last "legendary" Super Saiyan could, and likely were, exaggerated and/or misinterpreted, as most legends and folklores tend to be.

Here's my theory. Say that in the 1000-year intervals before DragonBall, there were "generations" of Super Saiyans much like Goku and company. Among one or more of them, however, there could possibly have been one who, due to some mutation, or natural-born potential like Broli's, ended up reaching levels of power far greater than the others. Or even more likely, there could be one who ended up reaching a higher stage than any of the others, such as SSj2 or 3. He would obviously be seen as something special, assuming nobody else in his "Super Saiyan generation" ever reached that stage. Reaching the almighty SSj4 would be even more cause to be seen as special, with it being so hard to acheive and so radically different from the others in power and appearance.

Along the decades as the Super Saiyans faded away, he might eventually become seen as a "legend" for his uniqueness. Add a few millenia, and we've got Vegeta telling everyone he fights about the "Legendary Super Saiyan," and boasting that he's going to be the "next one."

Long story short, I'm saying that the term "legendary," by its very nature, is by no means anything specific or concrete, and that the "Legendary Super Saiyans" of millenias past may be nothing more than those who simply managed to reach SSj3 or SSj4 when nobody else did. Simple stories tend to be exaggerated, modified, and become "legends" over long periods of time.




...But, with all due respect to the Cell and Buu arcs and their greatness, it still should've been just Goku.


P.S. - SSj4 rules!


[size=0] This font is very small. I congratulate your curiosity in going through the trouble of reading it.[/size]

[Maphisto86]

Well, since the thread is still going strong, I'd like to bring up a probably unoriginal idea that shoved it's way into my brain earlier this evening, and that is on the definition of the term "legend," and how it can often be misinterpreted. For the heck of it, and for possible reference, here's Dictionary.com's definition...

• leg·end /ˈlɛdʒənd/ [lej-uhnd] –noun
  1. a nonhistorical or unverifiable story handed down by tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical.
  2. the body of stories of this kind, esp. as they relate to a particular people, group, or clan

...Those two were the first and most applicable definitions in the list. I put emphasis on those two words because they're what I'm talking about. Records or stories of the last "legendary" Super Saiyan could, and likely were, exaggerated and/or misinterpreted, as most legends and folklores tend to be.

Here's my theory. Say that in the 1000-year intervals before DragonBall, there were "generations" of Super Saiyans much like Goku and company. Among one or more of them, however, there could possibly have been one who, due to some mutation, or natural-born potential like Broli's, ended up reaching levels of power far greater than the others. Or even more likely, there could be one who ended up reaching a higher stage than any of the others, such as SSj2 or 3. He would obviously be seen as something special, assuming nobody else in his "Super Saiyan generation" ever reached that stage. Reaching the almighty SSj4 would be even more cause to be seen as special, with it being so hard to acheive and so radically different from the others in power and appearance.

Along the decades as the Super Saiyans faded away, he might eventually become seen as a "legend" for his uniqueness. Add a few millenia, and we've got Vegeta telling everyone he fights about the "Legendary Super Saiyan," and boasting that he's going to be the "next one."

Long story short, I'm saying that the term "legendary," by its very nature, is by no means anything specific or concrete, and that the "Legendary Super Saiyans" of millenias past may be nothing more than those who simply managed to reach SSj3 or SSj4 when nobody else did. Simple stories tend to be exaggerated, modified, and become "legends" over long periods of time.




...But, with all due respect to the Cell and Buu arcs and their greatness, it still should've been just Goku.


P.S. - SSj4 rules!


[size=0] This font is very small. I congratulate your curiosity in going through the trouble of reading it.[/size]

That's why I make the excuse that THE legendary super saiyan is not a form but rather an individual. Either that or only one saiyan centuries before reached the golden haired stage of saiyan power and no one knew any saiyan could achieve it. I personally like to think of the latter as being Goku. Unlike Vegeta, Goku just seems to come by it naturally when it comes to overcoming obstacles. Yeah sure Vegeta, Gohan, Future Trunks, etc also overcame adversity but Goku seemed to always be the better fighter.

Even though he was not always the sharpest when it came to brain power Goku just seems to have an instinct the others lack. For example wasen't it Goku who came up with the solution to mastering the first SSJ state? From what I saw Vegeta (who always some himself as the "chosen one") felt angry at himself for not thinking of such a simple solution in order to master his own SSJ powers. Goku just knew that if he got his body used to the stresses of the SSJ form he could put more power into it without tiring himself out. I don't think anyone else came even close to figuring that out. So instead of the true SSJ form being SSJ2, 3 or 4 it is actually a single person with the ability to finally overcome the odds and come out on top. Still I think it would have been better if Goku was the only one to become SSJ 4. That would have solidified his status as the number one saiyan among the fanbase. Yet for me... Goku is always going to be thee legendary super saiyan just because of who he is.