Best plot twist in Dragon Ball?

[ABED]

So, he was hoping that pretending to faint would distract #20 and #19 so much that they didn't pay attention to Goku...?

No, their focus would be on Goku. While they are momentarily distracted, Piccolo would go as fast as he can and hit 19. 20's eyes wouldn't actively be on Piccolo. Piccolo is counting on his speed being enough. You are overthinking this. 20 is holding back Goku's friends. If his attention is split between them and looking back at Goku, Piccolo is counting on his speed to give him enough time to kick 19 away.

[TheUltimateVegito]

1. What if Android #20 had some unknown ability in regards to Ki absorption that would make attacking #20 directly lead to failure? Catching them off guard was the most sure/easiest option.

And how is pretending to faint supposed to "catch them off guard" and help Goku? Maybe if Piccolo had told Gohan or someone else to try to sneak past #20 once he pretended to faint but did he do that? Was that his intention? No. So... Absolutely no sense.

2. Bulma, like the others, had no idea that there were more Androids, she had no idea how the events would unfold and didn't know that they'd end up wanting to find the lab. It's easy to tell that Bulma thought telling them about the lab was pointless because they wouldn't try to search for it. Also, Bulma was just surprised that Dr. Gero was one of the Androids. I don't see the problem.

The problem is the writing. Because it was done poorly, Toriyama had to make Bulma speed off into the battlefield with her baby claiming that she wants to see the androids (which is incredibly stupid) just so that she can then tell them the area to look for the lab, and Toriyama completely forgot that if Bulma has that knowledge, then Future Bulma also should have that knowledge and thus Trunks should also know about it because it makes no sense for Future Bulma to not have, at least, told him about it, if not actually sent him there in search of clues in the future. So, instead, we just have an awkward scene when we actually think a little about it.

3. The difference between Cell and Freeza was that Cell was on guard for Gohan's attempt (i.e Because he can sense Ki, unlike Freeza). However, when Gohan attacked Freeza he caught him off guard and was able to continue the attack. The Cell that bled was more suppressed in comparison to the one that stopped Gohan's attack during the Cell Jrs assault, hence why Gohan was in shock. Even Cell himself pretty much said that he has to get fully mad to even hope to get past him. It's easy to believe that Cell would be able to raise his power level on the fly, he even raised his speed on the fly during his fight with Gohan.

So, in short, Gohan gave up after one generic attack because he thought Cell was very strong, like I stated. Did Gohan give up when he was fighting Reecome? No, he kept trying and trying and only stopped when Reccome broke his neck. Where is that Gohan in the Cell games? Nowhere to be found, there's only one Gohan that, for some reason, gives up after one generic attack, despite their family and friends being tortured, and stands still, watching, filled with fear over the fact that Cell is very strong.

Also, there's nothing telling us that Cell was more suppressed when Gohan made him fall down than when Gohan attacked him later. That's just a baseless assumption.

Android #20 was standing in front of the Z-Fighters, and focused his attention on them. Android #19 would be too busy absorbing Goku's energy to pay attention to Piccolo. I'm pretty sure kicking #19 is the equivalent of rescuing Goku and Piccolo would've done it in such breakneck speed that by the time #20 turns around or focuses his attention on Goku it'd be too late. Also, Gohan checking to see if Piccolo's is dead or not only made it all the more believable, there was no need for Piccolo to waste his time telling Gohan telepathically about his plan. Piccolo also didn't know if #20 was holding back or not.

What are you talking about? You aren't making any sense! Answer what I asked. What sequence of events was Piccolo's fainting supposed to trigger that could help Goku?

1. Because #20 won't have time to react. Piccolo was on the ground while Android #20 and the Z-Fighters were in the air. Piccolo would simply charge at Android 19 while Android 20 isn't paying attention.

2. It's part of Bulma's development, after her experience in Namek she became more curious about the prospect of dangers such as the Androids. Trunks didn't tell Goku about the lab because Goku told him he wanted to fight the Androids. Also, Dr. Gero was still creating the Androids during that time so it's highly unlikely that any form of countermeasures for the Androids would be present. Trunks (And most likely Future Bulma too) thought it was unlikely for a shutdown device to be in the lab. Like I said, It's likely for Trunks to have searched for the lab but not find it due to reasons I mentioned earlier.

3. Is there anything that stated the attack was generic? That's just baseless assumptions. Melee attacks can be powerful too. Also, I think you should re-read my previous posts.

[rereboy]

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

He 's only ever been semi-aware of it. Whenever he activated those hidden powers, he wasn't fully conscious of it or how he did it. If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much proven on-screen too, when Piccolo hurled him to a mountain, he obliterated it, and was later puzzled over what happened to his surroundings.

This was a situation where his father was depending on him to use this latent ability to save the day and kill someone he has no direct connection with. It was the first time he was dependent on it and internally focused on activating it at will.

You are interpreting it wrong. What he is beginning to understand is Goku's motivation for calling him into the fight. He's understanding what Goku expects to happen. And he mentions subconsciously because he never had conscious control over his bursts of power, not because he didn't know that he had rage boosts and great power inside of him.

Like I stated, Piccolo quite literally informs him of such, and then proves to him that he has it by launching him into a boulder. After that, Gohan spend half a year realizing that he indeed has power and gradually becoming stronger by himself, and then another half year training with Piccolo, where, once again, Piccolo trained him to improve his potential and certainly told him that he was needed to save the planet and had the power to do so.

After that, Gohan unleashes various rage boosts in various fights until the Cell arc, never really being surprised by the fact that he had a sudden burst of power, like he did when he destroyed that boulder after Piccolo throwing him.

You are quite literally saying that we should forget all that because Gohan says "it seems", which is nothing more than an expression, and "subconsciously", which refers to him not knowing how to consciously access it and control it, and not to being aware of it.

All those other times, he acted on an impulse/instinctively, and subconsciously powered up. This time, he was conflicted because he knew he had to bring out those powers at will, had no idea how to do that, and was scared to because, again, all those other times, he wasn't even fully aware he was doing it. It's not in his nature to become that fierce savage; it's randomly occurred every other time.

It didn't occur randomly every other time. It occurred because Gohan simply attacked with all his heart and might, in order to defend people who were about to die, because that's how Gohan's personality was. He simply couldn't stand to see good people suffer and die, he would simply not care about anything else and attack the villain. He didn't care that it was hopeless or how hard it was. Even when he was the one fighting, like he was when he was fighting Reccome, he simply didn't give up because he knew that the enemy would kill people he cared about, and thus, he only stopped when Reccome broke his neck. That was his personality, that was how he reacted to seeing good people about to die at the hands of villains.

Is that his personality in the Cell games? No. Suddenly, it appears he can stand it. He no longer ceases to care about anything else except protecting the people he cares about, and instead cares about about other things and prefers to commit himself to fear, which is exactly what happened when he faced Nappa. Isn't that a regression to how he was...?

Well, I'm not arguing that the writing is good. I agree that there was a poor lack of build-up. However, I disagree that the character was altered, changed, or regressed. The problem with the scene is exactly that: there was no proper build up to Gohan's development and stance on fighting.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if there was proper and satisfactory build-up and development to it, but, like I stated and explained above, the difference is quite clear and if there's not a change in his personality, then there's a regression.

So, he was hoping that pretending to faint would distract #20 and #19 so much that they didn't pay attention to Goku...?

No, their focus would be on Goku. While they are momentarily distracted, Piccolo would go as fast as he can and hit 19. 20's eyes wouldn't actively be on Piccolo. Piccolo is counting on his speed being enough. You are overthinking this. 20 is holding back Goku's friends. If his attention is split between them and looking back at Goku, Piccolo is counting on his speed to give him enough time to kick 19 away.

What? #20 was paying attention to Goku before Piccolo made his move but once Piccolo made his move, obviously, #20 started paying attention just to the gang which was surrounding Piccolo to not let any of them pass and ceased to pay attention to what was happening to Goku and #19 until Vegeta intervened. #20 didn't even look once to Goku and #19 after Piccolo made his move until Vegeta showed up.

How was Piccolo supposed to sneak past #20 with #20 now paying close attention to the gang (that was surrounding Piccolo) instead of Goku to not let any of them pass? If he had told anyone (telepathically or otherwise) to try to sneak past once he went down or to lure #20 away from where he had fallen so that he could sneak past #20 once #20 went after them thinking that Piccolo was done for, sure, that seems like a plan. But as it stands? Er, not really.

And how is that more effective than simply fighting seriously with #20 (especially after realizing that his attack wasn't that powerful) so that someone could go help Goku while he kept #20 busy?

Not to mention that Goku was pretty much dying while Piccolo was pretending to faint. Was Piccolo's plan to wait until #20 averted his eyes to Goku again, despite with every second gone by Goku was closer to death instead of just fighting #20, especially after realizing that #20's attack wasn't that powerful? That sounds idiotic to me and clearly something that was patched up once Toriyama decided to make #20 and #19 not be as powerful as he originally planned.

[TheUltimateVegito]

What? #20 was paying attention to Goku before Piccolo made his move but once Piccolo made his move, obviously, #20 started paying attention just to the gang which was surrounding Piccolo to not let any of them pass and ceased to pay attention to what was happening to Goku and #19 until Vegeta intervened. #20 didn't even look once to Goku and #19 after Piccolo made his move until Vegeta showed up.

How was Piccolo supposed to sneak past #20 with #20 now paying close attention to the gang (that was surrounding Piccolo) instead of Goku to not let any of them pass?

How is that more effective than simply fighting seriously with #20 (especially after realizing that his attack wasn't that powerful) so that someone could go help Goku while he kept #20 busy?

Not to mention that Goku was pretty much dying while Piccolo was pretending to faint. Was Piccolo's plan to wait until #20 averted his eyes to Goku again, despite every second gone by Goku was closer to death instead of just fighting him, especially after realizing that #20's attack wasn't that powerful? That sounds idiotic to me and clearly something that was patched up once Toriyama decided to make #20 and #19 not be as powerful as he originally planned.

That's the point. Piccolo could have rescued Goku without having to attack Android 20 directly. Why do you think Piccolo made his move in the first place? To get as close to Goku as possible before #20 intervened. #20 wouldn't pay attention to Piccolo because Piccolo was on the ground (While #20 was up in the air) and presumed dead. Piccolo would then continue to charge towards #19 just as #20 wasn't paying attention to save Goku. Also, Piccolo can sense Goku's energy, he can sense how long it'll take for Goku's energy to deplete, so he knew fully well how much time he had to rescue Goku.

[rereboy]

That's the point. Piccolo could have rescued Goku without having to attack Android 20 directly. Why do you think Piccolo made his move in the first place? To get as close to Goku as possible before #20 intervened. #20 wouldn't pay attention to Piccolo because Piccolo was on the ground (While #20 was up in the air) and presumed dead. Piccolo would then continue to charge towards #19 just as #20 wasn't paying attention to save Goku. Also, Piccolo can sense Goku's energy, he can sense how long it'll take for Goku's energy to deplete, so he knew fully well how much time he had to rescue Goku.

It doesn't matter if #20 wasn't looking directly at Piccolo because #20 was looking at the gang who was surrounding Piccolo to not let any pass (Gohan at the very least was right beside Piccolo and #20 was watching him), thus, making Piccolo still be on #20 field of vision. If Piccolo actually wanted to sneak past #20 that way, he would probably have to tell some of the gang to lure #20 away from where he fell. Did he do that? No. And even in that case that plan would take much longer and would probably be less effective than simply fighting #20 (especially after realizing that #20 attack wasn't that powerful) so that someone else could help Goku while he kept #20 busy, which was paramount since Goku was pretty much dying while Piccolo pretended to faint.

In any case, in the manga Piccolo stated that his intention was to distract them from Goku with his "defeat", he doesn't mention any of this sneaking past, he just mentions that he wanted to distract them from Goku. What you are saying is already a interpretation beyond what Piccolo says in the manga, and it still doesn't resolve the issue without it making apparent that it was patched up after Toriyama changed his mind.

[ABED]

The blocking isn't great in the anime, but in the manga it's just Gohan that goes to Piccolo's side. 20 and the Z Team are in the air. Piccolo would've had the time to help Goku.

he doesn't mention any of this sneaking past

He does mention that Vegeta butted in.

What you are saying is already a interpretation beyond what Piccolo says in the manga

It's a logical inference.

[TheUltimateVegito]

That's the point. Piccolo could have rescued Goku without having to attack Android 20 directly. Why do you think Piccolo made his move in the first place? To get as close to Goku as possible before #20 intervened. #20 wouldn't pay attention to Piccolo because Piccolo was on the ground (While #20 was up in the air) and presumed dead. Piccolo would then continue to charge towards #19 just as #20 wasn't paying attention to save Goku. Also, Piccolo can sense Goku's energy, he can sense how long it'll take for Goku's energy to deplete, so he knew fully well how much time he had to rescue Goku.

It doesn't matter if #20 wasn't looking directly at Piccolo because #20 was looking at the gang who was surrounding Piccolo to not let any pass (Gohan at the very least was right beside Piccolo and #20 was watching him), thus, making Piccolo still be on #20 field of vision. If Piccolo actually wanted to sneak past #20 that way, he would probably have to tell some of the gang to lure #20 away from where he fell. Did he do that? No. And even in that case that plan would take much longer and would probably be less effective than simply fighting #20 (especially after realizing that #20 attack wasn't that powerful) so that someone else could help Goku while he kept #20 busy, which was paramount since Goku was pretty much dying while Piccolo pretended to faint.

In any case, in the manga Piccolo stated that his intention was to distract them from Goku with his "defeat", he doesn't mention any of this sneaking past, he just mentions that he wanted to distract them from Goku. What you are saying is already a interpretation beyond what Piccolo says in the manga, and it still doesn't resolve the issue without it making apparent that it was patched up after Toriyama changed his mind.

It does matter because Piccolo was on the ground while #20 was up in the air. It's debatable whether or not Piccolo was in #20's field of vision, because they were a good distance away from each other. Plus, #20 wasn't looking at Gohan/Piccolo he was looking at the Z-Fighters in front of him while commenting on how unwise Piccoo's attempt was.

And his "defeat" did distract #20 from Goku, he was talking to the Z-Fighters afterwards did he not?

[TheUltimateVegito]

That's the point. Piccolo could have rescued Goku without having to attack Android 20 directly. Why do you think Piccolo made his move in the first place? To get as close to Goku as possible before #20 intervened. #20 wouldn't pay attention to Piccolo because Piccolo was on the ground (While #20 was up in the air) and presumed dead. Piccolo would then continue to charge towards #19 just as #20 wasn't paying attention to save Goku. Also, Piccolo can sense Goku's energy, he can sense how long it'll take for Goku's energy to deplete, so he knew fully well how much time he had to rescue Goku.

It doesn't matter if #20 wasn't looking directly at Piccolo because #20 was looking at the gang who was surrounding Piccolo to not let any pass (Gohan at the very least was right beside Piccolo and #20 was watching him), thus, making Piccolo still be on #20 field of vision. If Piccolo actually wanted to sneak past #20 that way, he would probably have to tell some of the gang to lure #20 away from where he fell. Did he do that? No. And even in that case that plan would take much longer and would probably be less effective than simply fighting #20 (especially after realizing that #20 attack wasn't that powerful) so that someone else could help Goku while he kept #20 busy, which was paramount since Goku was pretty much dying while Piccolo pretended to faint.

In any case, in the manga Piccolo stated that his intention was to distract them from Goku with his "defeat", he doesn't mention any of this sneaking past, he just mentions that he wanted to distract them from Goku. What you are saying is already a interpretation beyond what Piccolo says in the manga, and it still doesn't resolve the issue without it making apparent that it was patched up after Toriyama changed his mind.

It does matter because Piccolo was on the ground while #20 was up in the air. It's debatable whether or not Piccolo was in #20's field of vision, because they were a good distance away from each other. Plus, #20 wasn't looking at Gohan/Piccolo he was looking at the Z-Fighters in front of him while commenting on how unwise Piccoo's attempt was.

And his "defeat" did distract #20 from Goku, he was talking to the Z-Fighters afterwards wasn't he?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

To put things back on topic:

Goku being killed by Piccolo in the Raditz fight, even though he is still ok and goes to train with Kaiosama that moment was pretty shocking the first time i saw it, it may not be the best of all plot twist but at least this one is in my top 5 list.

[fadeddreams5]

You are interpreting it wrong. What he is beginning to understand is Goku's motivation for calling him into the fight. He's understanding what Goku expects to happen. And he mentions subconsciously because he never had conscious control over his bursts of power, not because he didn't know that he had rage boosts and great power inside of him.

Like I stated, Piccolo quite literally informs him of such, and then proves to him that he has it by launching him into a boulder. After that, Gohan spend half a year realizing that he indeed has power and gradually becoming stronger by himself, and then another half year training with Piccolo, where, once again, Piccolo trained him to improve his potential and certainly told him that he was needed to save the planet and had the power to do so.

After that, Gohan unleashes various rage boosts in various fights until the Cell arc, never really being surprised by the fact that he had a sudden burst of power, like he did when he destroyed that boulder after Piccolo throwing him.

You are quite literally saying that we should forget all that because Gohan says "it seems", which is nothing more than an expression, and "subconsciously", which refers to him not knowing how to consciously access it and control it, and not to being aware of it.

He may have been made aware of it in the past, but he wasn't directly aware when or how he did it during the moments it actually happened. That's what I mean. He said, "I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power." He's describing the entire action of fighting while enveloped with that strength, not just his lack of control over the actual power. When it happens, he never has control over it because he's not fully conscious of what he's even doing; he's fueled by rage, and rage alone. I know it's filler, but this is, again, directly seen in the scene where Goku finds out about Gohan's SSJ2 state in the RoSAT. Gohan's NEVER been fully aware of the depth of his powers, even when they're explained to him. I mean, he didn't even realize he surpassed his father, for Pete's sake.

It didn't occur randomly every other time. It occurred because Gohan simply attacked with all his heart and might, in order to defend people who were about to die, because that's how Gohan's personality was. He simply couldn't stand to see good people suffer and die, he would simply not care about anything else and attack the villain. He didn't care that it was hopeless or how hard it was. Even when he was the one fighting, like he was when he was fighting Reccome, he simply didn't give up because he knew that the enemy would kill people he cared about, and thus, he only stopped when Reccome broke his neck. That was his personality, that was how he reacted to seeing good people about to die at the hands of villains.

Is that his personality in the Cell games? No. Suddenly, it appears he can stand it. He no longer ceases to care about anything else except protecting the people he cares about, and instead cares about about other things and prefers to commit himself to fear, which is exactly what happened when he faced Nappa. Isn't that a regression to how he was...?

Gohan is still that way during the Cell Games. I mean, he pretty much voluntarily trained for the androids since the beginning of the arc, was willing to help out, and fought Cell for a bit. Seeing his father forfeit in favor of him, and later coming to the conclusion that his dad was relying entirely on something he's never been in control of, made him freak out. The whole point was that he wanted to save them, but he knew his best option was to let go. At the same time, he was terrified because it was the first time in his life he'd have to, somehow, consciously do it. While other times, he acted on an impulse, this time, he created a mental block because he was directly thinking about those powers. Add to the fact that the purpose of all of this was to kill someone. This is partially how I've always interpreted it, anyways.

I don't see it as a regression. I see it as Gohan being one of the most human characters. It just so happens the writing got in the way of showcasing and building that up better.

[SuicidalZerg]

Gohan, seeing Dende about to be murdered, and with no chance of beating Dodoria, Zarbon and Freeza, still acted and attacked because no one would.

Gohan, seeing Piccolo about to die at the hands of third from Freeza, and with no chance of beating Freeza, attacked to defend him, because no one would.

Gohan, at the Cell games, seeing his friends and family being tortured and about to die, is frozen in place, without acting, after only trying to hit Cell twice before he started attacking his family and friends.

You forgot an example... we never see Gohan attempt to go charging at Android 19 as he was absorbing Goku's energy, even though nobody else would at the time. 4 years is a very long time to think about things, mature, etc. Being an impulsive 5-year old is one thing... being a less-impulsive 9 year old, and then a slightly less-impulsive 10 year old is different. It's also entirely possible that Goku or Piccolo trained Gohan to not be so impulsive, and he just happened to take it a bit too far.

[MCDaveG]

Kuririn's death after Budokai shocked me as a kid!!!

[NintendoFan28]

Kuririn's first death.
Freeza surviving Namek's destruction.
The introduction of Imperfect Cell.
Super Boo transforming into Pure Boo (Even if it didn't make any sense).