"Who'd Win?"

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:20 pm

I know there's already a thread on here about this, but it hasn't been used since like February. So I thought I'd bring it back. So here's what I'll start off with.

Freeza (100%) V.S Goku (SSJ)- Now I know we've already seen this, but what if Freeza hadn't used the kienzan on Goku? He wouldn't have been cut in half which would have continued the fight. Here's how I see it, Freeza would win mainly because the planet would either explode allowing him to survive in space or his anger and hate would drive him into winning. Now I know Goku was pissed too, I mean who wouldn't his best friend was just killed, but I don't think he would have had the heart to kill Freeza nor the wheelpower to go on after a while.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:24 pm

CoolerEX wrote:Freeza (100%) V.S Goku (SSJ)- Now I know we've already seen this, but what if Freeza hadn't used the kienzan on Goku? He wouldn't have been cut in half which would have continued the fight. Here's how I see it, Freeza would win mainly because the planet would either explode allowing him to survive in space or his anger and hate would drive him into winning. Now I know Goku was pissed too, I mean who wouldn't his best friend was just killed, but I don't think he would have had the heart to kill Freeza nor the wheelpower to go on after a while.

Anger and hate driving him into winning? Freeza isn't a Saiyan.

Also, Goku noted Freeza's energy was dropping. Freeza was burning out, while Goku was still going strong.

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:34 pm

That's true but let us remember Freeza HATED the saiyans. I personally think more time would have given Freeza the edge. Sure his power was dropping, but it's not like Goku wasn't begining to tire either. Not only that but when Freeza begged for his life Goku didn't have what it took to kill him. Freeza being the cold hearted killer he is wouldn't be so sympathetic. Besides Goku was being too hard headed letting Freeza transform to 100%. I know Freeza is real cocky but at the time Goku was too full of himself. He was taking things too nonchalantly. Besides Freeza was taking things seriously for once during that fight.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:28 pm

But what's Freeza going to kill Goku with? Freeza is weaker (and getting moreso the longer the fight goes), and Goku already laughed off a Death Beam to the chin.

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:38 pm

He took the death beam on when Freeza was still in his 50% form if I'm not mistaken. Either that or it was 75%, either way this was not in 100%. Freeza's ki attacks were deadly enough to hurt Goku in 100% if not kill him. Besides if Goku could shake off the death beam with Freeza at 100% then the fight would have ended much quicker than it did. Goku's power was draining just as much as Freeza's. I still think Freeza would have won. Freeza is much smarter than Goku and as Freeza stated it's not the strongest fighter that wins it's the smartest. Not only that but Freeza has much more combat experience than Goku. Freeza is much older than Goku I'm sure we can all agree to. While Goku himself is a good fighter Freeza would have won. I will admit Goku was stronger than Freeza in his Super Saiyan form, but he was just pounding him. He couldn't kill Freeza. 100% nearly completely matched Super Saiyan.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:43 pm

I hate to bring in the "power level" issue, but didn't Toriyama somewhere state Goku's battle power was higher in some interview or in some collectible guide? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I very well may have been reading something made up by a fan.

Also, I always got the feeling he let the fight go on as long as it did just to fight the "strongest in the universe" ... not really to outright kill him. I'm assuming Goku's power couldn't have been that much different then as opposed to Trunks when he appeared, and he killed Freeze in one hit.

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:50 pm

Well, even though Cyborg Freeza is supposed to be stronger than his original form I think he lost to Trunks mainly because he was fighting a super saiyan far stronger than the one he fought on namek. Some people say that "Oh Goku has to be as strong or stronger than Trunks when he fought Freeza on namek" No, I think he matched Trunks in their little sparring match when he returned because he got a power-up after fighting Freeza. This means his power was far weaker then when he originally fought Freeza. When he beat Freeza he was close to dying himself. Now let us not forget that he is a saiyan and that when saiyans recover from severe injuries their power is greatly increased. Also according to Wikipedia Goku's Power was only 30 million more than Freeza's as a super saiyan. Freeza's was 120 million and Goku's was 150 million. Not much of a power gap really.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:59 pm

CoolerEX wrote:He took the death beam on when Freeza was still in his 50% form if I'm not mistaken. Either that or it was 75%, either way this was not in 100%.

Yeah, it was 50%. He was knocked back by a kaia at less than "three-quarters of my power!"

CoolerEX wrote:Freeza's ki attacks were deadly enough to hurt Goku in 100% if not kill him.

Any ki attacks you're talking about are probably filler attacks. Because besides a kaia which didn't budge Goku and the use of the Kienzan, the rest of the blows given by Freeza were physical.

CoolerEX wrote:Freeza is much smarter than Goku and as Freeza stated it's not the strongest fighter that wins it's the smartest.

I would still pick an enraged Nappa over a calm Goku from the beginning of Z any day.

CoolerEX wrote:100% nearly completely matched Super Saiyan.

Key word: "nearly." And according to Goku, that "nearly" ran out as soon as he said, "I quit. You hit your peak. You've burned out your power, so your ki is dropping fast... I don't see any point in fighting you anymore. I'm satisfied your pride's been shredded. You've met somebody who surpassed the supposedly unsurpassable Freeza... And he was only a Saiyan. You've felt fear...haven't you? What's the point in rubbing it in? Just go off and cower someplace.... I'm going back to Earth. I can just make it in time if I go now."

Payne222 · Post by **Payne222** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:13 pm

It's pointless, this is a "what if". What happened, happened. No one could ever accually know what would have happened except Toriyama-Sensei himself.

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:15 pm

Remember this is a "what-if" not only that, but didn't Goku say that after Freeza was cut in half? Either that or it was right before Freeza used the kienzan. The power levels of the two were close. If Goku would have fought Freeza longer it could have been anyone's game. They were both tired and they were both at their peaks. While Goku was stronger this still doesn't override what could have happened. Freeza losing was supposed to happen. Even though it's clear that given more time it could have been either of the two that would have won. I stick with Freeza winning. We don't know what he could have pulled out if the fight lasted longer. Which makes me think, wouldn't it be cool to see Freeza get so mad it triggers a new transfromation?

Alright I'm done with that for now. New one.
Cooler (Transformed) V.S Goku (SSJ)- We've seen this too, but I think logically Cooler Should have won. This is a movie, so they had to finish it up quick and let Goku win. But Cooler is much stronger than his brother, and with his Transformed state he should've won. He already passed 100% of his penultimate form, which was a complete match for SSJ with Freeza. If it weren't a movie he should've won. The only other reason Goku would've won is if this took place much later in the story, but this is a movie it isn't canon which means they pretty much gave Goku an unfair advantage.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:22 pm

CoolerEX wrote:Cooler (Transformed) V.S Goku (SSJ)- We've seen this too, but I think logically Cooler Should have won. This is a movie, so they had to finish it up quick and let Goku win. But Cooler is much stronger than his brother, and with his Transformed state he should've won. He already passed 100% of his penultimate form, which was a complete match for SSJ with Freeza.

Cooler punched an unblocking Goku directly in the stomach and Goku didn't even blink. Cooler was Goku's bitch.

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:29 pm

Yeah, because it was a movie. It's not like they could've made Cooler win. But what if it wasn't a movie and we put this say right after Freeza. There's no way Goku could've won. Cooler was just as strong as Goku and Vegeta in the next movie. This isn't because of the Big Gete Star it's just because of the fact that it's a movie. If they would have brought the Cooler from the last movie back the new movie would be 5 minutes long. I do think it would be fair to say that Goku was much stronger when he returned from Namek, but I still think if you compared Cooler and Goku without it being a movie so that Goku HAS to win, Cooler would be the dominant one. At the same time you'd have to figure out how much stronger Goku had become, etc.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:30 pm

Rocketman wrote:Cooler punched an unblocking Goku directly in the stomach and Goku didn't even blink. Cooler was Goku's bitch.

That line was actually in the daizenshuu. Word for word; and now you know.

It's pointless, this is a "what if". What happened, happened. No one could ever accually know what would have happened except Toriyama-Sensei himself.

Depends how big the paycheck is I suppose..(Oh, yeah, there was a magical being hidden in Earth. I forgot to mention that)
-Rick

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:32 pm

These kinds of threads tread on very, very, very thin ice on this forum. Please keep that in mind when making your replies.

Payne222 · Post by **Payne222** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:35 pm

VegettoEX wrote:These kinds of threads tread on very, very, very thin ice on this forum. Please keep that in mind when making your replies.

Yes Sir! <(^^)

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:35 pm

CoolerEX wrote:Yeah, because it was a movie. It's not like they could've made Cooler win. But what if it wasn't a movie and we put this say right after Freeza. There's no way Goku could've won.

Except that he's the hero of the story.

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:39 pm

Ok, fine let's say we threw all the "Hero" crap out of the window. Then what? Cooler would've won. If Goku weren't the hero and we're talking in terms of sheer power then Cooler could've owned Goku.

Payne222 · Post by **Payne222** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:40 pm

CoolerEX wrote:Ok, fine let's say we threw all the "Hero" crap out of the window. Then what? Cooler would've won. If Goku weren't the hero and we're talking in terms of sheer power then Cooler could've owned Goku.

If there was no "hero" or "villain", then what would be the point of the fight...?

CoolerEX · Post by **CoolerEX** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:43 pm

Ok, let me change. How about if Goku was just a minor character. He keeps the strength he has he's just not as improtant.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:46 pm

CoolerEX wrote:Ok, fine let's say we threw all the "Hero" crap out of the window. Then what?

This forum implodes. That's what.

I think what happens when people have a favorite character is, they tend to ignore certain reasons that show their character's flaws. For an example, it took me about three years to accept that the only person that was stronger than Vegetto was Piccolo. In time, you'll accept that too. When you bring Trunks into the picture, remember that Freeza was weaker and caught off-guard. Trunks is such a bully.
-Rick

Kanzenshuu

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