How do you deal with overpower in the series?

[Birusu16]

And what says a Goku and Vegeta fusion is more likely to happen? You?

The fact that they have the earrings and know the dance, and that nothing is even remotely implied about them not being able to fuse other than shit you just made up.

Last I checked the Kaioshin have the earrings. And Beerus and Whis can easily take the earrings from the Kaioshin. It doesn't matter how much more likely one hypothetical fusion is over another. The fact is they're just that, hypothetical and until they become factual as in it actually happened then it's no different than discussing fan-fiction. Neither SSGSS Vegetto or SSGSS Gogeta currently exist. Do you disagree with that? If you do then you might as well say a fusion of Beerus and Whis exists as well.

Where did I say they wouldn't be able to fuse? I said that perhaps the god power would affect the power of their fusion in the same way that it affected Goku's SSJ form (i.e. the multiplier was lessened quite a bit) and I never (not once) presented this as a fact. I've said time and time again that I don't know if/how the god power would affect a fusion between Goku and Vegeta. I merely presented an option. It's you who's taking it as some cold hard fact when I never once presented it as such.

[manwolf]

The problem is that a lot of characters can´t catch up after Namek and Super only exacerbate this a lot.

In DB Goku are not absurdly stronger that the rest, for half of the series he isn't the stronger and when he is the stronger and the second is Piccolo, the humans more or less put some fight in the tournament.

In the saiyan saga Goku and Vegeta are overpowered, Nappa is very strong but the rest of the warrioRs can fight with strategy.

In Namek Goku and Freeza are overpowered but the rest of the fighters can fight Freeza in his non final forms.

In Cell saga the saiyans and Piccolo are more or less in the same tiers and Tier and Krillin can only assist and Yamcha and Chaos pretty much retire.

In Buu saga only the saiyans and Boo are useful.

And now only the gods are useful, the rest of the character are fodder, and isn't that some character like Gotenks or Mystic Gohan can give some fight no pure fodder.

The difference of power is vast and is not that the author accentuate this, Gohan becomes weaker and Gotenks and Boo are not called, is like the author only likes Goku and Vegeta.

[JulieYBM]

I haven't felt like any of the characters are particularly powerful. We are told they are powerful but it is rare we ever see it. Beers being able to destroy a planet with his finger nail is about the strongest display we've had in thirty years and even then the display itself isn't all that impressive looking.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You're right, there's no good reason at all to think that "Full Power Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto" is even part of the equation. He's a hypothetical form of a character that was never even shown to be possible. Maybe he could be, if Goku and Vegeta merged and then Vegetto spent a week or so training or something. Because precedent with Gotenks showed that the Fusion needs to train for any form that its halves don't already have, and only one of Vegetto's halves can go Super Saiyan 3.

But is there any reason to think that would happen within the short-term plot of Battle of Gods or DB Super? When Beerus is on his way to Earth and it could be destroyed within the hour? No, no there isn't.

Gotenks had to go through training in order to transform into a regular Super Saiyan on his own, but Vegetto could do it after existing for a few seconds. Who says that he can't go SS3 as well? He knows how to do it (through Goku), and he is more than strong enough to be able to transform. And even if he really needs training, if Goku has time to train in hopes of achieving Super Saiyan God, then Vegetto should also have time to achieve SS3. And SS3 Vegetto never existing before doesn't mean anything. Goku was talking & measuring SS Gotenks' power before he existed. The fact that Goku completely ruled out merging with Vegetta means, IMO, that nothing Vegetto could ever do would have been enough. To me, it doesn't make sense otherwise. "To fight him, I would have merge with Vegeta... no, even that probably won't be enough. Maybe we could try going beyond Super Saiyan, we never did that before! Nah, it never happened, so screw that idea."

And if you ask me "what makes you think that Vegetto can turn SS3?", this is my theory about why Gotenks couldn't go SS at first, while Vegetto could, and how SS/2/3 in general work for merged fighters.
Goten & Trunks were born with the ability to easily turn SS, they first transformed at a very young age, young enough for Goten to not remember when he did. They also probably mastered the form soon after they achieved it. So, by the time of Boo arc, they can just transform, without getting angry or anything, since they have mastered the form. So, if you were to ask them "how do you transform", they would just answer "I dunno, I just do it".
However, Goku & Vegeta didn't start like them. They had to train & go through various situations in order to achieve the form, and they had to actually learn how to do it, it didn't come naturally to them like it did for Goten & Trunks. When Gohan asked Goku "how do you transform", Goku answered "you raise your ki and get really angry".
So, Gotenks had to re-discover how to turn Super Saiyan, but Vegetto already knew how to do it, and they were both more than strong enough to easily awaken the form. Gotenks also had the idea of going beyond Super Saiyan, which is how he also discovered Super Saiyan 3, as he was more than strong enough to transform. Vegetto knows how to go SS2 & SS3, and he is more than strong enough, so it should be as easy as it was to turn into a regular Super Saiyan for him to awaken these forms as well. Same goes for Gogeta, of course.

Whis and Beerus don't have access to the earrings (or an easy method of separating themselves), nor do they know the dance.

They do have access to them, they even have access to Kaioshin's dick if they want to (seriously). But I think that Goku & Vegeta would produce a better result than them, since the gap in Goku's & Vegeta's strength is much smaller than Beerus' & Whis', and we know that rivaling powers make a better result.

[Sayo-chan]

Gotenks had to go through training in order to transform into a regular Super Saiyan on his own, but Vegetto could do it after existing for a few seconds. Who says that he can't go SS3 as well?

The antithetical argument holds about the same merit: "Who says they can go SSJ3?"

He knows how to do it (through Goku), and he is more than strong enough to be able to transform. And even if he really needs training, if Goku has time to train in hopes of achieving Super Saiyan God, then Vegetto should also have time to achieve SS3. And SS3 Vegetto never existing before doesn't mean anything. Goku was talking & measuring SS Gotenks' power before he existed. The fact that Goku completely ruled out merging with Vegetta means, IMO, that nothing Vegetto could ever do would have been enough. To me, it doesn't make sense otherwise. "To fight him, I would have merge with Vegeta... no, even that probably won't be enough. Maybe we could try going beyond Super Saiyan, we never did that before! Nah, it never happened, so screw that idea."

You're making assumptions you can't prove.

I. We have no idea if Vegetto during his existence knew how to go SSJ3.
II. We we have no way of knowing how these are comparable (i.e., Goku's time to become a god and Vegetto's to become SSJ3).

Now, SSJ3 Vegetto not existing does mean something, despite your assertion here. It means we've never seen him use the transformation. This follows in conjunction with the fact that we still have no idea if he can actually use it. These two things are very important to this debacle. As for Goku measuring Gotenks power before he existed, he didn't. He can't measure something that doesn't exist. That doesn't even make sense. I'm assuming you're meaning to say he made an educated guess about his strength beforehand. Goku knows the intricacies of the fusion dance, he knows what the boys are capable of. He put two and two together. He's still inaccurate, seeing that he never factored SSJ3 as an option for them. That isn't evidence in the slightest for SSJ3 Vegetto. Goku doesn't know the intricacies of merging. Vegetto doesn't know his own limits, which you've prior attributed to not existing long enough; however, we're never given the implication he ever figures it out. Goku has a rough idea of Vegetto's power, but there's nothing to say he knows anything about his potential.

Goku ruling out Vegetto in favor of himself is somehow a better strategy? No, it's an awful strategy that worked because of the god ceremony actually being a thing and working. Present Vegetto will always be stronger than present Goku, making Vegetto, despite Goku and Vegeta's meaningless squabbling, the better option. The assumption you're making here is that Goku bothered to think these things out, as opposed to just thinking Vegetto as is wouldn't cut it. We still have no verification whatsoever about Vegetto's potential. One could assume Vegetto has the potential to become SSJ3, but the time required, however short, wouldn't be enough.

So, Gotenks had to re-discover how to turn Super Saiyan, but Vegetto already knew how to do it, and they were both more than strong enough to easily awaken the form. Gotenks also had the idea of going beyond Super Saiyan, which is how he also discovered Super Saiyan 3, as he was more than strong enough to transform. Vegetto knows how to go SS2 & SS3, and he is more than strong enough, so it should be as easy as it was to turn into a regular Super Saiyan for him to awaken these forms as well. Same goes for Gogeta, of course.

Again, you're still asserting assumptions as factual. We don't know if Vegetto can go SSJ3. I also don't why you keep bringing up strength. It's never confirmed that there's a strength requirement for SSJ.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The antithetical argument holds about the same merit: "Who says they can go SSJ3?"

And I already gave my answer:

And if you ask me "what makes you think that Vegetto can turn SS3?", this is my theory about why Gotenks couldn't go SS at first, while Vegetto could, and how SS/2/3 in general work for merged fighters.

You're making assumptions you can't prove.

Err...

And if you ask me "what makes you think that Vegetto can turn SS3?", this is my theory about why Gotenks couldn't go SS at first, while Vegetto could, and how SS/2/3 in general work for merged fighters.

Again, you're still asserting assumptions as factual.

Well...

And if you ask me "what makes you think that Vegetto can turn SS3?", this is my theory about why Gotenks couldn't go SS at first, while Vegetto could, and how SS/2/3 in general work for merged fighters.

Doesn't sound like I'm talking about facts.

[Sayo-chan]

And I already gave my answer:

I'm aware of what you stated, however that's not an answer to my question. I'm not referring to fans and I figured that much was obvious.

Doesn't sound like I'm talking about facts.

Well, that much we're clear on. That's why I said you were asserting things as though they were factual. I'm referring to very specific parts of what you're stating, not the conglomerate itself. Flat out saying Vegetto knows how to go SSJ3 is an assumption that can't be proved, which is my point. If you want to contest that in the name of an unproved hypothesis, that's fine, but then the issue still dwells on the phrasing you're using, which is what I bolded in the last post.

What's more is, the parts you're cherry picking from my post aren't relevant to what you're comparing them to (especially considering I never mentioned what you quoted, because it's irrelevant to my post). That said, I never commented on your hypothesis about Gotenks, at least not beyond Goku's predictions.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's at the point where you just expect there to be some new villain/character who is way more powerful than anything that's been seen before. I mean, it happens all the time it's become a cliche in the series, so you might as well run with it.

- First part of DB: Roshi is the strongest guy in the world, way above everyone else. He can do all of these amazing things and has all of these powers, and everyone acknowledges him as the most legendary fighter in the world.
- RRA saga: Goku, having just barely lost to Roshi, is getting stronger and stronger. So you think Goku has to be the strongest guy in the world now. Suddenly, here comes Taopaipai, who treats Goku like a weakling. Where did this guy come from and how come we've never heard of him before? Then you get Karin, and a freaking cat is stronger than everyone else. And after a bit of training, Goku surpasses Tao.
- 22nd Budokai: Here we've got Tien, who is like Tao taken up to 11. He's not only stronger than Roshi, but seemingly stronger than Goku. Goku just barely loses to him.
- King Piccolo arc: There's this ancient sealed evil in a can who Roshi is terrified of, he easily beats the crap out of Goku, then makes a wish to become even stronger and actually kills Shenron (major wow factor there), and takes over the world, wiping out whole armies by himself. His weaker minions defeat Tien, who was the big threat in the last arc. He's clearly built up as a huge, ultimate evil threat. Goku needs a Deus Ex Machina powerup to just barely beat him.
- Post-King Piccolo arc: Goku is surely the strongest guy in the world now, right? I mean, he beat the ultimate evil, Demon King Piccolo! But here comes Mr. Popo, who treats Goku like a child. And Kami, who is even stronger than him, and defeats him with a finger flick.
- 23rd Budokai arc: Piccolo is back and stronger than ever. Even Kami (who is literally the god of the planet) is no match for him. Yet Goku beats him. Goku is finally the strongest in the world!
- Beginning of DBZ: Unfortunately, there's more than just one world. Raditz shows up and makes Goku and Piccolo combined seem powerless. They barely manage to defeat him with a strategy. Then he reveals that two guys who are even stronger than him are showing up soon.
- Saiyan arc: The invaders can mass-produce warriors who are around as strong as Raditz. But those guys are fodder now. Then Nappa comes in and starts owning everyone. Finally Goku returns and beats Nappa, but then it's revealed that Vegeta is way more powerful, and Goku has to exert himself to the breaking point to beat him. Surely Vegeta was the strongest threat in the universe they could ever face, right?
- Namek saga: Vegeta's back, stronger than ever, and there are a bunch of other guys even stronger than him. Then the Ginyu Force comes in, and they are way beyond Vegeta. Goku one-shots the guy who was beating Vegeta, but has trouble with the captain. Then Freeza gets hyped up like crazy, with Kaioh saying he's the strongest enemy Goku could ever face, he stands no chance, etc. Even after getting tons of powerups, Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo are still no match, and Freeza still has more and more forms, getting ridiculously more and more powerful, to where even Kaioh says he never thought Freeza was that strong. Freeza keeps going on about being the strongest in the entire universe. Goku finally becomes the legendary SSJ and defeats him. So now it's over, right? Goku is the strongest in the universe. Nowhere else to go from here, surely.
- Android saga: Freeza is back, stronger than before, along with his father who is nearly as strong. They get defeated easily by an unknown SSJ from the future. Then Goku blocks this new guy's attacks with one finger. But he reveals that some guy on Earth is building cyborgs that are stronger than both of them... somehow. Three years of training, and the cyborgs show up. They don't seem to be that much of a threat, really. Vegeta is now SSJ and stronger than Goku. Suddenly, we get 17 and 18, who wipe out the Z-senshi including Trunks and Vegeta effortlessly.
- Piccolo gets another powerup, he's now on par with 17. But there's a mysterious new enemy who's able to fight almost equally with him.
- After absorbing a few thousand humans (seriously, this never made sense to me), Cell is now way beyond 17, 18, and Piccolo. But surprise, 16 is equal to him. Then he absorbs 17 and is beyond them all again.
- Vegeta and Trunks achieve a level beyond Super Saiyan (which was considered impossible) and make Semi-Perfect Cell seem useless. Then he absorbs 18 and is stronger than them all again.
- Gohan eventually goes SSJ2 and is stronger than Cell.
- Cell gets a zenkai, and Gohan still wins. Now it's Gohan who's the strongest in the universe. No one is getting stronger than him, right?
- Buu saga. Oops, Vegeta and Goku have both surpassed him. And Buu is beyond both of them. Then Goku reveals he has another form, SSJ3. Not to be outdone, Buu gets more and more powerups, starts absorbing people, then Gohan is once again the strongest, but gets absorbed too. Then we get Vegeto, who makes the strongest form of Buu look powerless. Vegeto is the strongest guy who ever existed, right?
- Wait, here comes Beerus. One-shotting everybody. And once again a freaking cat is stronger than everyone else.
- And here's Whis, one-shotting Beerus.

I'm fully expecting there to be at least one character in one of the other universes who puts even Whis to shame.

[TripleRach]

The fact that they have the earrings and know the dance, and that nothing is even remotely implied about them not being able to fuse other than shit you just made up.

Please use a more respectful tone when responding to other members.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm aware of what you stated, however that's not an answer to my question. I'm not referring to fans and I figured that much was obvious.

You asked me what makes me think that Vegetto can go SS3, and I gave my answer with my theory about why I believe that Vegetto can go SS3.

Flat out saying Vegetto knows how to go SSJ3 is an assumption that can't be proved, which is my point.

Why wouldn't he know how to do it? He has all of Goku's memories, and Goku knows how to do it. That doesn't mean that he is capable of doing it, but he should know how to do it. Gohan knew how to turn Super Saiyan after Goku told him how, but he wasn't capable of doing it.

[Sayo-chan]

You asked me what makes me think that Vegetto can go SS3, and I gave my answer with my theory about why I believe that Vegetto can go SS3.[/quote]
No, I didn't. I didn't ask why you think anything. I just stated I wasn't referring to anything fan related in what you just quoted.

Why wouldn't he know how to do it? He has all of Goku's memories, and Goku knows how to do it. That doesn't mean that he is capable of doing it, but he should know how to do it. Gohan knew how to turn Super Saiyan after Goku told him how, but he wasn't capable of doing it.

He may know how Goku can transform, but not himself. We have no idea how their personalities merging affects the thought process of Vegetto. We don't know what gets discarded, what gets remembered and what kind of gets remembered. For all we know, it's not entirely clear how he would apply it to himself. There's not enough information to make the assertion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He may know how Goku can transform, but not himself. We have no idea how their personalities merging affects the thought process of Vegetto. We don't know what gets discarded, what gets remembered and what kind of gets remembered. For all we know, it's not entirely clear how he would apply it to himself. There's not enough information to make the assertion.

Why would he forget anything? And why would it be any different for him to transform? That doesn't make sense.

[Sayo-chan]

He may know how Goku can transform, but not himself. We have no idea how their personalities merging affects the thought process of Vegetto. We don't know what gets discarded, what gets remembered and what kind of gets remembered. For all we know, it's not entirely clear how he would apply it to himself. There's not enough information to make the assertion.

Why would he forget anything? And why would it be any different for him to transform? That doesn't make sense.

Last time I checked, Goku was never suggested to have an ieidetic memory. We don't know how the merge affects Vegetto's mind. We don't know what takes priority or what he remembers and what he doesn't. People forget things, remember things wrong, inadvertently alter their own memories, etc. I'm not saying he forgot about Goku transforming (in fact I'm not saying he forgot anything), I'm saying this is a basic tenet of how people operate and and he's no exception.

Onto the main point. There's nothing to tell us Vegetto knows how to apply the transformation to himself. That's not saying SSJ3 is any different on a fundamental level as you're basing your question to me on, but it is saying Vegetto's knowledge may be inadequate on transforming himself. He may have a rough idea, he may not. It may be that he needs to sit down and think about it for 10 seconds, 10 minutes or 10 hours. We have no indication SSJ3 ever crossed his mind at any point in his lifespan. How would someone know something that's never been on their mind? If he does have the memory, then he may not "know" it until he thinks of it for the first time. That however, doesn't answer if he knows exactly how it would work for him, seeing that's a completely different being than Goku. This is why it's important to note we don't understand enough about how the merge affects his mind, because epistemological questions/statements become murky water.

As I've stated, there isn't enough information to validate such an assertion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Last time I checked, Goku was never suggested to have an ieidetic memory. We don't know how the merge affects Vegetto's mind. We don't know what takes priority or what he remembers and what he doesn't. People forget things, remember things wrong, inadvertently alter their own memories, etc. I'm not saying he forgot about Goku transforming (in fact I'm not saying he forgot anything), I'm saying this is a basic tenet of how people operate and and he's no exception.

But this isn't something he may not remember well, Goku used it a few minutes before Vegetto was born.

Onto the main point. There's nothing to tell us Vegetto knows how to apply the transformation to himself. That's not saying SSJ3 is any different on a fundamental level as you're basing your question to me on, but it is saying Vegetto's knowledge may be inadequate on transforming himself. He may have a rough idea, he may not. It may be that he needs to sit down and think about it for 10 seconds, 10 minutes or 10 hours. We have no indication SSJ3 ever crossed his mind at any point in his lifespan. How would someone know something that's never been on their mind? If he does have the memory, then he may not "know" it until he thinks of it for the first time. That however, doesn't answer if he knows exactly how it would work for him, seeing that's a completely different being than Goku. This is why it's important to note we don't understand enough about how the merge affects his mind, because epistemological questions/statements become murky water.

Why would he need to sit and think about how to do it when he should know how to do it from Goku's memories? There is no indication that he, or other merged beings like Gotenks & Piccolo after merging with Nail & Kami lost any memories from their parts (except for Boo). Vegetto should know everything Goku & Vegeta knew when they merged, and Goku knew very well how to turn SS3. Maybe Vegetto's body wasn't capable to transform, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to transform or doesn't remember well.

[Sayo-chan]

But this isn't something he may not remember well, Goku used it a few minutes before Vegetto was born.

This is true, but it still remains that we don't know much about his mind. Again, I'm not stating he forgot anything, but there's no way to know how he remembers anything.

Why would he need to sit and think about how to do it when he should know how to do it from Goku's memories? There is no indication that he, or other merged beings like Gotenks & Piccolo after merging with Nail & Kami lost any memories from their parts (except for Boo). Vegetto should know everything Goku & Vegeta knew when they merged, and Goku knew very well how to turn SS3. Maybe Vegetto's body wasn't capable to transform, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to transform or doesn't remember well.

As I've stated, he simply may not know. There's no evidence they didn't either. We don't know anything about how the fusion affects their mind. I believe it was stated that Nail's personality would evaporate, or at least it was said in the English dub of Kai.

Again, how would he know something that may not have crossed his mind? You still have no way to verify whether or not he knows how to use SSJ3 as a transformation for himself. That is to say, he doesn't know if he's capable and is thereby not only ignorant about himself but may also be about the application of SSJ3. I also again, never stated he has a hard time remembering anything. I stated there's no way to know.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe it was stated that Nail's personality would evaporate, or at least it was said in the English dub of Kai.

Nail did say that, but it seems that he lied, since Piccolo knew who Dende was.

As I've stated, he simply may not know. There's no evidence they didn't either.

There is no reason to think that he didn't. This is a baseless assumption that you are making.

[Sayo-chan]

Nail did say that, but it seems that he lied, since Piccolo knew who Dende was.

That's a good point. So there's even more of a shroud of mystery concerning Nail and Piccolo.

There is no reason to think that he didn't. This is a baseless assumption that you are making.

I'm not making an assumption. I'm stating there's not enough information to make a valid assertion either way. There's nothing to suggest SSJ3 ever crossed his mind.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not making an assumption. I'm stating there's not enough information to make a valid assertion either way. There's nothing to suggest SSJ3 ever crossed his mind.

Who cares if SS3 ever crossed his mind? That doesn't mean he doesn't know how to do it from Goku's memories. And yes, you are making assumptions. You are assuming that Vegetto doesn't know how to go SS3, which is something he should know, since Goku knows this. We have no prior incident that shows Vegetto not knowing something Goku or Vegeta knew, so we have no reason to assume that any memories from Goku & Vegeta were lost in the merging process.

[Sayo-chan]

I'm not making an assumption. I'm stating there's not enough information to make a valid assertion either way. There's nothing to suggest SSJ3 ever crossed his mind.

Who cares if SS3 ever crossed his mind? That doesn't mean he doesn't know how to do it from Goku's memories. And yes, you are making assumptions. You are assuming that Vegetto doesn't know how to go SS3, which is something he should know, since Goku knows this. We have no prior incident that shows Vegetto not knowing something Goku or Vegeta knew, so we have no reason to assume that any memories from Goku & Vegeta were lost in the merging process.

Well, as I've been saying now in almost every post, we don't know how Vegetto's mind works. If something doesn't cross his mind, how could he know it? He's never thought of it before. This is why I stated the epistemological statements being made cause trouble.

I feel as though you're not reading my posts. I never assumed that at all (in fact I stated that's exactly what I wasn't saying). I'm going out of my way to phrase things so it doesn't come across like that. I stated we don't know if he knows how. That is completely different than saying he doesn't know how. You also can't prove that he should know it, seeing again, we don't understand how Vegetto's mind works. He may know it crystal clear, but he may not. Your last sentence I've addressed several times now. It's not just an issue of IF he lost any memories (note that I'm not saying did), it's how the merging process affects his mind as a whole. What has priority? What is remembered in part? What's remembered clearly? Vegetto isn't Goku, his thought process is the product of two people put together, not just one. We simply do not know what he remembers, what crossed his mind to be remembered or anything related that wasn't implied or shown. Goku doesn't have an ieidetic memory, he's just like everyone else. Same with Vegeta. Vegetto is different than the two and never suggested to have an ieidetic memory either. There's not enough information to make a valid epistemological assertion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He knows who Goku & Vegeta is, he knows Japanese, he knows how to fight, he knows how to go Super Saiyan, he knows exactly who Majin Boo is and what abilities he has. We have seen enough to know how Vegetto's mind works, it's a combination of Goku's & Vegeta's, and he knows everything they know.