Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Saiga]

I just assume he's being a complete fucking idiot, as per usual. We see quite plainly that he's totally wrong.

[Analytical Delusion]

It's probably been addressed here before, but how do you guys deal with that comment by Piccolo in the ROSAT about Gotenks having a chance in base state, without knowing at the time that he could transform after fusing?

Easiest hand-wave answer is that he's just desperate for hope and overreacting. But a better answer I've taken a liking to is that he may have expected them to go Super Saiyan, become disheartened when they didn't and it appeared they couldn't, and then became optimistic again when they revealed they could.

I guess it's also possible that he had already decided that he was going to blow up the door at that point, so maybe he was acting out of character.

Maybe he also figured "Hey, they're so strong now, and they escaped from the original [Fat] Buu. He's much stronger now, maybe if somehow Gotenks can survive, or if we can trick [the current, Super] Buu into letting the fusion run out, Goten and Trunks can turn Super Saiyan and re-fuse, and we'll have a shot!". Typing that out actually, it doesn't seem like the worst idea.

[Blackstripe]

It's probably been addressed here before, but how do you guys deal with that comment by Piccolo in the ROSAT about Gotenks having a chance in base state, without knowing at the time that he could transform after fusing?

Easiest hand-wave answer is that he's just desperate for hope and overreacting. But a better answer I've taken a liking to is that he may have expected them to go Super Saiyan, become disheartened when they didn't and it appeared they couldn't, and then became optimistic again when they revealed they could.

I guess it's also possible that he had already decided that he was going to blow up the door at that point, so maybe he was acting out of character.

Maybe he also figured "Hey, they're so strong now, and they escaped from the original [Fat] Buu. He's much stronger now, maybe if somehow Gotenks can survive, or if we can trick [the current, Super] Buu into letting the fusion run out, Goten and Trunks can turn Super Saiyan and re-fuse, and we'll have a shot!". Typing that out actually, it doesn't seem like the worst idea.

Except they have to wait an hour in between fusions.

[Analytical Delusion]

Except they have to wait an hour in between fusions.

Right, but you don't think Buu would be willing to wait? He was impatient at that point for the most part, but had he known that they'd be significantly stronger, maybe he'd be willing to wait longer.

(Just trying to justify it in-universe. Realistically it was probably a throw-away statement.)

[supercat]

Gogeta SSJ4 GT would one - shot Whiss IMO

It's extremely unlikely that this speculation holds any truth.

-We know Beerus was worlds above SSJ Vegetto, who's merely been stated to be on par with SSJ4 Goku.

-While Omega Shenron stood leagues above SSJ Goku, the latter still endured quite a beating from the former without immediately keeling over. This likely shows that the gap between the two is not nearly as wide as Beerus and SSJ Vegetto / SSJ4 Goku.

-Even with the usage of his Big Bang Kamehameha, SSJ4 Gogeta was unable to secure his victory against Omega Shenron. Whis outclassed this moment of failure when he rendered Beerus unconscious with an effortless chop. Based on the implied gap between the destroyer and Vegetto (who's on par with SSJ4), he sits a few notches above the Shadow Dragon, who again didn't perform so impressively against a duo of SSJ4's. Therefore, nonchalantly taking down Beerus holds far more value than simply kicking Omega Shenron around.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Don't see anything saying his speculation "doesn't hold any truth". Any power comparison between GT and Battle of Gods is purely opinion.

stated to be on par with SSJ4 Goku.

That's never stated. Vegetto (in general; no specific form) is said to be perhaps (i.e., not definitive) greater than Super Saiyan 4, not Super Saiyan 4 Goku. It could be a comparison between potara in general and SS4 in general, SS3 Vegetto and SS4 Goku, or SS Vegetto and SS4 Goku like you're saying. You're free to interpret it however you like, but the statement is not definitive and can mean so many different things.

-While Omega Shenron stood leagues above SSJ Goku, the latter still endured quite a beating from the former without immediately keeling over. This likely shows that the gap between the two is not nearly as wide as Beerus and SSJ Vegetto / SSJ4 Goku.

Because Super Yi Xing Long was toying. He could've ended them whenever he wanted. It's like trying to say the humans surviving against the Cell kids proves the gap between them isn't huge.

[ahill1]

Gogeta SSJ4 GT would one - shot Whiss IMO

It's extremely unlikely that this speculation holds any truth.

-We know Beerus was worlds above SSJ Vegetto, who's merely been stated to be on par with SSJ4 Goku.

-While Omega Shenron stood leagues above SSJ Goku, the latter still endured quite a beating from the former without immediately keeling over. This likely shows that the gap between the two is not nearly as wide as Beerus and SSJ Vegetto / SSJ4 Goku.

-Even with the usage of his Big Bang Kamehameha, SSJ4 Gogeta was unable to secure his victory against Omega Shenron. Whis outclassed this moment of failure when he rendered Beerus unconscious with an effortless chop. Based on the implied gap between the destroyer and Vegetto (who's on par with SSJ4), he sits a few notches above the Shadow Dragon, who again didn't perform so impressively against a duo of SSJ4's. Therefore, nonchalantly taking down Beerus holds far more value than simply kicking Omega Shenron around.

Who said Vegetto SSJ = Goku SSJ4? Like SSJ2FutureGohan said, it could be a comparison between Vegetto and SSJ4 in general, like the "boosts" provided by each. Hell IMO even Goku SSJ4(vs Baby) would win against Whiss swimmingly.

[Saiga]

Except they have to wait an hour in between fusions.

That only applies to using Super Saiyan 3 with fusion.

[Blackstripe]

Except they have to wait an hour in between fusions.

That only applies to using Super Saiyan 3 with fusion.

Which they did, and would certainly need to fight Super Buu again.

[Saiga]

Except they have to wait an hour in between fusions.

That only applies to using Super Saiyan 3 with fusion.

Which they did, and would certainly need to fight Super Buu again.

But it has nothing to do with the current topic, because Piccolo didn't know about Gotenks having Super Saiyan 3 or its effects on fusion.

The topic was about base Gotenks defusing.

[Blackstripe]

But it has nothing to do with the current topic, because Piccolo didn't know about Gotenks having Super Saiyan 3 or its effects on fusion.

The topic was about base Gotenks defusing.

Ah, I see. Nevermind, then.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I just assume he's being a complete fucking idiot, as per usual. We see quite plainly that he's totally wrong.

I don't see how he's being an idiot, Trunks and Goten came to the same conclusion as him, separately. If anyone was misjudged it was Boo, not Gotenks.

[Doctor.]

People continue to put much trust into what was clearly a gag scene. The gag was that Piccolo was super surprised at Gotenks' strength, believed the could win and two seconds later was completely shut down once they attacked Boo. It is highly unlikely that Toriyama wanted to imply that Base Gotenks after training is superior to Super Saiyan Gotenks before, otherwise he would have made that more clear.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The 'gag' was the actual fight, Chichi getting killed, Goten wanting revenge, and Goten and Trunks training hard for revenge, Trunks thinking Gotenks could match Boo in base and Piccolo saying Gotenks vastly powered up is not 'gag'. Also, who said gag negates statements? What's in the manga is in the manga regardless of it's humorous or not. Also, he did make it clear. SS Gotenks pre has no chance against Evil Boo while Base Gotenks post powered up vastly and just may stand a chance, that's very clear if you ask me.

[Doctor.]

Also, who said gag negates statements?

So Goku doesn't need to breathe while in space?

[Kamiccolo9]

If we're taking gag feats as legitimate, Roshi and Krillin have Buu-Like regeneration powers, and humans in Dragon Ball can unhinge their jaws like snakes.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I said statements, not feats. Gotenks' fight with Boo was humorous, yes, but the statements before the fights about Gotenks being able to match Boo in base and having powered up vastly are not humorous or "gag".

[supercat]

Don't see anything saying his speculation "doesn't hold any truth". Any power comparison between GT and Battle of Gods is purely opinion.

stated to be on par with SSJ4 Goku.

That's never stated. Vegetto (in general; no specific form) is said to be perhaps (i.e., not definitive) greater than Super Saiyan 4, not Super Saiyan 4 Goku. It could be a comparison between potara in general and SS4 in general, SS3 Vegetto and SS4 Goku, or SS Vegetto and SS4 Goku like you're saying. You're free to interpret it however you like, but the statement is not definitive and can mean so many different things.

-While Omega Shenron stood leagues above SSJ Goku, the latter still endured quite a beating from the former without immediately keeling over. This likely shows that the gap between the two is not nearly as wide as Beerus and SSJ Vegetto / SSJ4 Goku.

Because Super Yi Xing Long was toying. He could've ended them whenever he wanted. It's like trying to say the humans surviving against the Cell kids proves the gap between them isn't huge.

Seeing as how SSJ Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku were the two that were actually shown on screen at the time, it seems pretty darn logical that the comparison was pertaining to them. In my opinion, taking a simple comparison and tacking on hypothetical forms and such is a tad bit excessive and unnecessary. I'm all for speculations, but when these types of lines are dropped, I find that dragging in unseen transformations usually makes the discussion too convoluted.

Who said Vegetto SSJ = Goku SSJ4? Like SSJ2FutureGohan said, it could be a comparison between Vegetto and SSJ4 in general, like the "boosts" provided by each. Hell IMO even Goku SSJ4(vs Baby) would win against Whiss swimmingly.

Not sure how anything even remotely akin to that was ever implied and/or stated, but okay.

The 'gag' was the actual fight, Chichi getting killed, Goten wanting revenge, and Goten and Trunks training hard for revenge, Trunks thinking Gotenks could match Boo in base and Piccolo saying Gotenks vastly powered up is not 'gag'. Also, who said gag negates statements? What's in the manga is in the manga regardless of it's humorous or not. Also, he did make it clear. SS Gotenks pre has no chance against Evil Boo while Base Gotenks post powered up vastly and just may stand a chance, that's very clear if you ask me.

Becoming SSJ3 was necessitated for Gotenks to actually be on fighting terms with Buu. I doubt they were able to see a fiftyfold increase during that short duration of training.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Seeing as how SSJ Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku were the two that were actually shown on screen at the time, it seems pretty darn logical that the comparison was pertaining to them. In my opinion, taking a simple comparison and tacking on hypothetical forms and such is a tad bit excessive and unnecessary. I'm all for speculations, but when these types of lines are dropped, I find that dragging in unseen transformations usually makes the discussion too convoluted.

That's subjective. It's logical to you. And as I said, you're fine to interpret it that way, that's your opinion, but my main point is it's subjective and open to different interpretation.

Not sure how anything even remotely akin to that was ever implied and/or stated, but okay.

It's just his opinion. Nothing from the actual show contradicts that, he's free to disregard outside sources not from the creators if he wishes.

I doubt they were able to see a fiftyfold increase during that short duration of training.

Piccolo and Trunks + Goten had more faith in Base Gotenks post than they did SS Gotenks pre against Evil Boo, so it's quite clearly implied. You can disregard it / have a different opinion if you wish, but it's still definitely implied.

[supercat]

Seeing as how SSJ Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku were the two that were actually shown on screen at the time, it seems pretty darn logical that the comparison was pertaining to them. In my opinion, taking a simple comparison and tacking on hypothetical forms and such is a tad bit excessive and unnecessary. I'm all for speculations, but when these types of lines are dropped, I find that dragging in unseen transformations usually makes the discussion too convoluted.

That's subjective. It's logical to you. And as I said, you're fine to interpret it that way, that's your opinion, but my main point is it's subjective and open to different interpretation.

Not sure how anything even remotely akin to that was ever implied and/or stated, but okay.

It's just his opinion. Nothing from the actual show contradicts that, he's free to disregard outside sources not from the creators if he wishes.

I doubt they were able to see a fiftyfold increase during that short duration of training.

Piccolo and Trunks + Goten had more faith in Base Gotenks post than they did SS Gotenks pre against Evil Boo, so it's quite clearly implied. You can disregard it / have a different opinion if you wish, but it's still definitely implied.

The only time an implication is the go-to indicator is when no other sources and/or variables are available for comparison. In this particular case, Gotenks was completely outclassed until he went Super Saiyan 3. In my opinion, an outcome of a major battle has a lot more validity backing it up than a nonchalantly dropped line.