Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Gohan is stronger than Boo, yes.

You're still not getting the point, lol.

Rild is stronger than Gohan, okay. Now, if Goku said Rild was stronger than Kid Boo, this statement would still be true, would it not? Then, I ask you, why did he have to have been talking about Gohan Boo? When he could have been talking about ANY other Boo and his statement would have still been correct?

To say he was talking about Gohan Boo, when that's the only Boo whose strength compared to Rild's we're unsure about, is reaching just to make Rild more powerful.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Rild is stronger than Gohan, okay. Now, if Goku said Rild was stronger than Kid Boo, this statement would still be true, would it not? Then, I ask you, why did he have to have been talking about Gohan Boo? When he could have been talking about ANY other Boo and his statement would have still been correct?

It'd be true, but why would Goku make the comparison to a weaker form of Boo if the comparison could be more impressive and be referring to a stronger form of Boo.

If Goku said Rild's Ki is even greater than Nappa's it'd still be correct, right? It's just silly because he's stronger than a bunch of much stronger opponents that Goku could compare him to and make him seem even more impressive.

[Doctor.]

Rild is stronger than Gohan, okay. Now, if Goku said Rild was stronger than Kid Boo, this statement would still be true, would it not? Then, I ask you, why did he have to have been talking about Gohan Boo? When he could have been talking about ANY other Boo and his statement would have still been correct?

It'd be true, but why would Goku make the comparison to a weaker form of Boo if the comparison could be more impressive and be referring to a stronger form of Boo.

If Goku said Rild's Ki is even greater than Nappa's it'd still be correct, right? It's just silly because he's stronger than a bunch of much stronger opponents that Goku could compare him to and make him seem even more impressive.

That's true but automatically assuming that he was talking about Gohan Boo just because Rild is stronger than Gohan is reaching. He could have been talking about regular old Super Boo, the gap would be small enough where it would seem impressive and the character was relevant enough for the comparison to make sense.

[Saiga]

Well, why use a weaker Boo as an example of why he is excited to fight Rild? And if Gohan were stronger than the form of Boo Goku is referencing, why even reference Boo instead of Gohan?

[Doctor.]

Well, why use a weaker Boo as an example of why he is excited to fight Rild? And if Gohan were stronger than the form of Boo Goku is referencing, why even reference Boo instead of Gohan?

Because if Rild actually is weaker than Gohan Boo, then it wouldn't make sense for him to mention Gohan Boo now would it? lol. Because Boo was the most recent villain they fought, it's obvious saying Boo will sound more impressive to the audience.

[ahill1]

Well, why use a weaker Boo as an example of why he is excited to fight Rild? And if Gohan were stronger than the form of Boo Goku is referencing, why even reference Boo instead of Gohan?

Agreed, well put, Goku is compared Rild to Gohan Buu IMO.

If Rild is stronger than Buuhan so Goku SSJ4 would be way, way stronger than SSJ Vegetto(buu saga), right?

Where do you guys have Base Vegetto(buu saga)? Dai Kaioshin said that if Goku and Gohan fused through Potara they would be able to beat Gotenks Buu in base. This means Vegetto base can beat Gotenks Buu as well? Unless Gokan(potara fusion) >>>> Vegetto(potara fusion).

[Saiga]

Well, why use a weaker Boo as an example of why he is excited to fight Rild? And if Gohan were stronger than the form of Boo Goku is referencing, why even reference Boo instead of Gohan?

Because if Rild actually is weaker than Gohan Boo, then it wouldn't make sense for him to mention Gohan Boo now would it? lol. Because Boo was the most recent villain they fought, it's obvious saying Boo will sound more impressive to the audience.

I never said about referencing Gohan-Boo specifically. And it's not really impressive if the Boo used was a comparative weakling.

[supercat]

The vast majority of Buuhan's power was being extrapolated from Gohan, so using this particular incarnation of Buu as a comparison is nothing short of dropping the latter's name.

Well, the majority of Cell's power was being extrapolated from No. 17 and No. 18, that doesn't stop us from calling him Cell. The same could be said from Bebi, since most of his power came from Vegeta, or Rild, whose most of his power comes from Planet M2 itself.

I'm honestly a tad bit surprised you would say such a thing. Pretty sure I recall you saying something about Kaioshin referring to First Form Frieza.

Also, Cell's design entailed utilizing the androids for his own purposes, so in my opinion the two are not synonymous.

I never said about referencing Gohan-Boo specifically. And it's not really impressive if the Boo used was a comparative weakling.

Even by that point of the series, I would hardly consider Kid Buu a feeble source of power. This is especially true when you consider who Goku's faced after the vile menace's defeat --a couple of no-name aliens, a giant robot, and some more silly looking robots. As a matter of fact, the only ones who had anything on him were Goku, Vegeta, Gohan (if he continued training), and Piccolo (took over hell). From a practicality standpoint, inserting Kid Buu into the comparison makes a lot more sense for the following reasons:

1. Goku knows him best.

2. Buuhan's powers are borrowed in a sense, as a large percentage of his strength wasn't even his. Might as well drop Gohan's name, since it was his power that was primarily fueling Buu.

Not saying this is the case with you, but GT fans tend to go above and beyond to try and justify some of the nonsensical power hax the show unnecessarily had an abundance of. Exactly why I'm personally not a fan of GT

[ahill1]

Kibito = Goku SSJ(yardrat saga)
East Kaioshin = Vegeta SSJ(android arc)
South Kaioshin = Kid Trunks SSJ(buu saga)

What do you guys think?

Goku SSJ(yardrat saga) 280,000,000
Kibito 280,000,000
Vegeta SSJ(android arc) 500,000,000
East Kaioshin 560,000,000
Kid Trunks SSJ 37,500,000,000
South Kaioshin 37,500,000,000

[supercat]

Kibito = Goku SSJ(yardrat saga)
East Kaioshin = Vegeta SSJ(android arc)
South Kaioshin = Kid Trunks SSJ(buu saga)

What do you guys think?

Goku SSJ(yardrat saga) 280,000,000
Kibito 280,000,000
Vegeta SSJ(android arc) 500,000,000
East Kaioshin 560,000,000
Kid Trunks SSJ 37,500,000,000
South Kaioshin 37,500,000,000

Kibito couldn't even budge the Z-Sword; I would place him no higher than a fifth Frieza's full power on Namek. As for Base Gohan, I have him somewhere around 30% of the tyrant's true power (Namek).

[ahill1]

Kibito = Goku SSJ(yardrat saga)
East Kaioshin = Vegeta SSJ(android arc)
South Kaioshin = Kid Trunks SSJ(buu saga)

What do you guys think?

Goku SSJ(yardrat saga) 280,000,000
Kibito 280,000,000
Vegeta SSJ(android arc) 500,000,000
East Kaioshin 560,000,000
Kid Trunks SSJ 37,500,000,000
South Kaioshin 37,500,000,000

Kibito couldn't even budge the Z-Sword; I would place him no higher than a fifth Freeza's full power on Namek. As for Base Gohan, I have him somewhere around 30% of the tyrant's true power (Namek).

Do you think South Kaioshin weaker than Gohan SSJ(buu saga)?

[supercat]

Kibito = Goku SSJ(yardrat saga)
East Kaioshin = Vegeta SSJ(android arc)
South Kaioshin = Kid Trunks SSJ(buu saga)

What do you guys think?

Goku SSJ(yardrat saga) 280,000,000
Kibito 280,000,000
Vegeta SSJ(android arc) 500,000,000
East Kaioshin 560,000,000
Kid Trunks SSJ 37,500,000,000
South Kaioshin 37,500,000,000

Kibito couldn't even budge the Z-Sword; I would place him no higher than a fifth Freeza's full power on Namek. As for Base Gohan, I have him somewhere around 30% of the tyrant's true power (Namek).

Do you think South Kaioshin weaker than Gohan SSJ(buu saga)?

Well we honestly don't have much to go by since the only real indicator of his strength was a filler scene where he fought on par with Buu for a brief moment or two. That said, if Buu opted into absorbing him, I would place him no lower than an SSJ2. I honestly doubt an SSJ3-tier Kid Buu would bother wasting time absorbing a fodderish tool, when his existence itself was fueled by the desire to cause destruction. Meaning, he would prioritize beating down a weaker foe over consolidating their essence with his own.

[RandomGuy96]

When I first saw that GT quote, I assumed Goku was talking about the Buu that still existed, the one that the people he's talking to would be most familiar with.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I agree it'd make sense... if Rild wasn't stronger than a trained Gohan. Also, he wasn't talking to Pan and Trunks, that was in the English dub only. He was talking to Rild in the subbed version.

[supercat]

When I first saw that GT quote, I assumed Goku was talking about the Buu that still existed, the one that the people he's talking to would be most familiar with.

That's actually very plausible as well. Even among the main cast, only a few of them actually stood above Mr. Buu, so encountering someone of that caliber could still have been significant enough to warrant some attention. Again, who exactly has Goku fought after Buu's defeat? A few no-name aliens, a giant robot, and another band of fodder robots who even Pan was able to stand up to. Given that track record, I'd say running into an opponent on par with any form of Buu would have been one to remark about.

[RandomGuy96]

I agree it'd make sense... if Rild wasn't stronger than a trained Gohan.

I also never, ever agreed with the assumption that Gohan is as strong as his Ultimate self here in SS/SS2, when nothing of the sort is ever implied. It seems quite clear that he just lost that state regardless of whatever training he did. Hence why he never uses it (even though it's explicitly stated to be superior to Super Saiyan), he's weaker than Vegeta, and the other stronger-than-Goku character from the Buu arc just never shows up.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He still has his Ultimate exclusive eyes and hair, so I don't see how he lost it.

"Ultimate" doesn't seem like a form. It's all of Gohan's latent power and more drawn out into his base form, so there's no need to change forms during fighting. It just seems in GT his potential grew and he was able to unlock Super Saiyan again through his training.

Again, like I always say, there's no reason to note he trained if he's supposed to be massively weaker. And there's no reason to just randomly make Gohan lose his Ultimate. No one has yet provided a good reason Toei would even have to strip Gohan of his Ultimate power up.

[RandomGuy96]

He still has his Ultimate exclusive eyes and hair, so I don't see how he lost it.

He still uses Super Saiyan, so clearly he doesn't have it. They don't stack.

"Ultimate" doesn't seem like a form. It's all of Gohan's latent power and more drawn out into his base form, so there's no need to change forms during fighting. It just seems in GT his potential grew and he was able to unlock Super Saiyan again through his training.

Again, like I always say, there's no reason to note he trained if he's supposed to be massively weaker. And there's no reason to just randomly make Gohan lose his Ultimate. No one has yet provided a good reason Toei would even have to strip Gohan of his Ultimate power up.

That doesn't even make sense. His Ultimate form is stated to be outright superior to his Super Saiyan form, and is the result of him trying to go Super Saiyan after the ritual. If he got Super Saiyan back, it'd just make him weaker. Also, again, he's never implied to be hot shit anywhere, with Vegeta clearly being treated as stronger than him.

Because if he had his Ultimate power-up, he'd be stronger than Goku. This is the same reason that there was no Gotenks in GT.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He still uses Super Saiyan, so clearly he doesn't have it. They don't stack.

I don't see where that's stated. Ultimate brought out all of Gohan's dormant power, but there's nothing saying if his dormant power continues to grow he couldn't unlock Super Saiyan again. That's what Super Saiyan draws from, dormant power, does it not?

That doesn't even make sense. His Ultimate form is stated to be outright superior to his Super Saiyan form, and is the result of him trying to go Super Saiyan after the ritual.

His Ultimate 'form' isn't stated to be superior to his Super Saiyan form. Old Kaioshin just said transformations are the wrong way of doing things, and that Ultimate is accessing all of that power without any transformations. Ultimate Gohan = Base Gohan.

If he got Super Saiyan back, it'd just make him weaker.

Don't see why. Super Saiyan only makes a Saiyan stronger.

Also, again, he's never implied to be hot shit anywhere, with Vegeta clearly being treated as stronger than him.

Which would make Vegeta stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Is there a problem?

Because if he had his Ultimate power-up, he'd be stronger than Goku.

Why do they need to get rid of Gohan's Ultimate form for that? Why can't they just make Goku stronger? Wouldn't that make Goku look more impressive? Everyone says Toei loves Goku so much, so why not make him super strong as opposed to making everyone else weak?

This is the same reason that there was no Gotenks in GT.

Gotenks wasn't necessary until the Baby arc, at which point Goku had got SS4 and stated SS3 Gotenks would be weaker than Great Ape Baby and himself.

[ahill1]

Dragon Ball power levels - ignoring scouters

Dragon balls arc

Kuririn 7

Yamcha 9

Goku 10

Gyumao 20

Roshi 30




21st Budokai

Yamcha 12

Giran 16

Kuririn 20

Namu 28.5

Goku 30

Roshi 30




Red Ribbon arc part 1

Colonel Silver 10

Ninja Murasaki 20

Sergeant Metallic 27

Goku 30

Android 8 40




Red Ribbon arc part 2

Kuririn 20

Pirate Robot 24

General Blue 27

Bora 27

Goku 36

Tao Pai Pai 75

Goku(post karin training) 83




Uranai Baba arc

Dracula Man 10.6

Invisible Man 11

Yamcha 12

Kuririn 20

Mummy 36

Akkuman 54

Son Gohan 80

Son Goku 83




22nd Budokai

Panputt 36

Chapa-o 83

Chaozu 95

Yamcha 97.5

Kuririn 100

Tsuru 120

Roshi 139

Tenshinhan 180

Goku
~initial 100
~little more serious(vs kuririn) 120
~speedup 155
~Full power 180




Piccolo Daimao arc

Roshi(young) 155
Tsuru(young) 155
Mutaito 170

Kuririn 100

Cymbal 110

Tambourine 145

Yajirobe 160

Karin 170

Tenshinhan 180

Goku 180

Drum 300

Piccolo Daimao Old
~40% 360
~100% 900

Piccolo Daimao Young
~initial 1,200
~Full power 1,800

Goku(post water) 1,800

Mr Popo 4,000

Kami-Sama 12,000




23rd Budokai

Chapa-o 110

Chaozu 800

Yajirobe 840

Chi Chi 900

Yamcha 1,440

Kuririn 1,500

Tenshinhan 2,200

Shen 12,000

Kami-Sama 12,000

Goku
~weighted
------------strength 2,200
------------speed 1,800
~unweighted(vs ten) 3,400
~tenshinhan's estimation 6,800
~vs Piccolo(warm up) 12,500
~full power 20,000

Piccolo
~initial 1,600
~little more serious 1,800
~vs Shen 13,000
~vs Goku(warm up) 13,000
~full power 20,000