Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

I just can't make sense of Beerus using 10% to beat Vegeta if he was 2-4% of Beerus.

6% should be enough.

I think you guys are underestimating Vegeta.

Or Toei screwed the things up having Beerus to say a percentage of his power, they better let Beerus saying:"I have never had to use this percentage of my true power against Saiyans, like you, Vegeta.

Beerus using 10% of his true power is simply way too much, knowing Goku's decision to discard Vegetto. It's simply makes Vegetto to high if used against Beerus, potentially surpassing him.

Well, of course. Everyone knows this is the truth of it.

But as horrifically nerdy fans, it is our duty to try and make some level of sense out of Toei's bumbling decisions.

Doesn't stop people from not giving a shit about Toei's GT bumbling and usually being passive on power levels there. There's no reason to try and make sense of nonsense. It's like trying to bring sense to Wonderland. Or better yet the best thing you can do to make sense of this, is to literally throw out everything you followed before, as none of it probably applies the same as it did 18 years ago.

[Chiki]

And that matters because? Like I said, Vegeta still got a rage boost. It doesn't make sense, but he got one. The point is that it doesn't matter how much of a boost it was, because the simple concept of him getting a boost is stupid in the first place.

Concepts of boosts aren't stupid. Even in real life people get boosts in extreme situations:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... uperhuman/

But there's a limit to these boosts. Gohan's power going up to 1300 is ok because he was a baby with IMMENSE potential. It's fiction, we can allow that no problem. Vegeta, unlike Baby Gohan, is a trained Saiyan with his potential already mostly realized. SSJ2 Vegeta getting a rage boost to put him above HIS OWN FUSION is stupid. End of story.

I've been using SS as a 100x multiplier ever since Goku and Gohan mastered it in my PL lists for a long time, before this episode even aired. My reason being that Goku and Gohan's training would make more sense if they could master Grade 2 and 3's power in their normal Super Saiyan form and tap into it that way. It also fits in with Toriyama's comment about SS being more beneficial than SS2 or 3.

It's likely that Goku and Gohan's base strengths were really high, and the only thing that their new Super Saiyan form accomplished was drain their energy less.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Full-P ... per_Saiyan

Full-Power Super Saiyan (超サイヤ人フルパワー) is the mastery of the Super Saiyan form, completely unrelated to the 2nd and 3rd Grade Super Saiyan stages of the transformation. The form is the Super Saiyan state trained into a "natural" form, and removes the agitation that is present in the original Super Saiyan form, also allowing the Saiyan to easier manipulate their ki in the form and utilize it more efficiently, minimizing strain.

"Trying to make facts fit" is a bad thing, apparently?

Coming up with a reason solely to make the facts fit is pretty bad. It's like saying God exists just because we can't explain the Big Bang. This is widely accepted to be poor reasoning in science, philosophy and logic.

You need independent reasons for your arguments to be strong. I have one.

Like I said, Vegetto has to be weaker than God Goku. Reason being that Super Saiyan God's existence would be completely pointless if that wasn't the case, since Goku said he couldn't defeat Beerus

I know it's a problem, but you can't just make up bullshit reasons like SSJ2 Rageta > SSJ Vegito just to fix it.

We have an independent reason to think that SSJ multipliers go down as a person's base strength increases: SSGSS Goku. That's all.

or the story being wrong. And the story isn't wrong, so that only leaves one option.

Stories can be wrong. They're called retcons and contradictions depending on the context. For example, Pan is 5 years old in the epilogue in DBZ Kai but at least 10 according to Super now. There you go, a perfect example of a story being wrong!

I don't see why that matters. Godly Ki has different properties to normal Ki, so I don't see why it's obligatory that SS multipliers work the same way. They don't, obviously.

It has a single confirmed different property. There's no such thing as "godly ki is more powerful than normal ki."

DENDE of all people has godly ki (confirmed in Super Episode 7). Goku could kill him with a mere ki blast easily. Godly ki is nothing special, end of story.

Why obviously? Why can't the reason be because Goku has become so strong that his SS form is no longer as great of a multipler, hmm?

SSGSS is a 2x boost and Freeza's golden form is 3.5x, because I want them to be as such.

Lol you're just wrong. If SSGSS is a 2x boost then Goku is 12 on Toriyama's scale, meaning he can beat Beerus. This is false. We know Base God Goku in RF = God Goku because he absorbed godly powers.

Also "I want them to be as such" is very poor reasoning.

[Doctor.]

But there's a limit to these boosts. Gohan's power going up to 1300 is ok because he was a baby with IMMENSE potential. It's fiction, we can allow that no problem. Vegeta, unlike Baby Gohan, is a trained Saiyan with his potential already mostly realized. SSJ2 Vegeta getting a rage boost to put him above HIS OWN FUSION is stupid. End of story.

I know it's stupid, that's what I've been trying to tell you. Him getting stronger than SS3 Goku through a rage boost is ALREADY stupid enough as it is.

Coming up with a reason solely to make the facts fit is pretty bad. It's like saying God exists just because we can't explain the Big Bang. This is widely accepted to be poor reasoning in science, philosophy and logic.

You need independent reasons for your arguments to be strong. I have one.

I... can't even begin. I cannot comprehend how you thought the two situations were remotely comparable.

There are two options to take here:
#1: Vegeta is weaker than Vegetto, meaning Vegetto is stronger than God Goku and potentially Beerus
#2: Vegeta is stronger, or at the very least around the same level, as Super Vegetto, meaning SS3 Vegetto would be weaker than God Goku and Beerus

The part about Vegetto being weaker than Godku and Beerus was already confirmed within the series. So there's only ONE option you can take, it doesn't matter if you think it's ridiculous or not, like I said it's already ridiculous he got stronger than SS3 Goku in the first place.

I know it's a problem, but you can't just make up bullshit reasons like SSJ2 Rageta > SSJ Vegito just to fix it.

We have an independent reason to think that SSJ multipliers go down as a person's base strength increases: SSGSS Goku. That's all.

But SS2 Rageta > SS3 Goku isn't a bullshit reason, because...?

We have no such thing. We have a theory, a very shaky one considering the basis of your theory is SSGSS, a transformation that uses Godly Ki, not normal Ki. Theories take no place in arguments like this.

Stories can be wrong. They're called retcons and contradictions depending on the context. For example, Pan is 5 years old in the epilogue in DBZ Kai but at least 10 according to Super now. There you go, a perfect example of a story being wrong!

The story isn't wrong in this context, the first episode very clearly states that "some time" passed after they wished for everyone to forget about Boo.

There's no such thing as "godly ki is more powerful than normal ki."

Why obviously? Why can't the reason be because Goku has become so strong that his SS form is no longer as great of a multipler, hmm?

I never said Godly Ki was more powerful than normal Ki, where are you getting this from? I'm saying they're two separate forms of energy. Godly Ki can do stuff normal Ki can't, so ASSUMING the multipliers work the same is just wrong.

Because, like I explained earlier, it makes sense for the SS multiplier to increase, not decrease.

Lol you're just wrong. If SSGSS is a 2x boost then Goku is 12 on Toriyama's scale, meaning he can beat Beerus. This is false. We know Base God Goku in RF = God Goku because he absorbed godly powers.

Saying Base God Goku in F = SSG Goku is a big assumption (with absolutely nothing that could make you think as such), considering Beerus says Goku lost some of his power after losing SSG, and that he gained a big boost after transforming into SS in BoG and SSGSS in F. As you can see, Goku is merely a 7.2 in SSGSS and 3.6 in base in my list.

[Chiki]

I... can't even begin. I cannot comprehend how you thought the two situations were remotely comparable.

There are two options to take here:
#1: Vegeta is weaker than Vegetto, meaning Vegetto is stronger than God Goku and potentially Beerus
#2: Vegeta is stronger, or at the very least around the same level, as Super Vegetto, meaning SS3 Vegetto would be weaker than God Goku and Beerus

The part about Vegetto being weaker than Godku and Beerus was already confirmed within the series. So there's only ONE option you can take, it doesn't matter if you think it's ridiculous or not, like I said it's already ridiculous he got stronger than SS3 Goku in the first place.

If you accept that SS multipliers decrease as you get stronger, then you can take 1 and easily say that Vegito can't beat Beerus. So they're perfectly comparable.

But SS2 Rageta > SS3 Goku isn't a bullshit reason, because...?

Because of the rage boost. He can probably tap in to whatever source of SSJ3 power than he has as a Saiyan, and more due to his rage. It's even more bullshit if he can actually beat SSJ Vegito with that boost though, because Vegito's potential is far, far greater than Vegeta's.

We have a theory, a very shaky one considering the basis of your theory is SSGSS, a transformation that uses Godly Ki, not normal Ki.

Dende has godly ki. So what? He can't even beat Chiaotzu. Godly ki is nothing special.

Frieza can stand up to God Goku no problem without godly ki. It means that the only difference between normal ki and godly ki is that godly ki can only be sensed by others with godly ki, end of story.

I never said Godly Ki was more powerful than normal Ki, where are you getting this from? I'm saying they're two separate forms of energy. Godly Ki can do stuff normal Ki can't, so ASSUMING the multipliers work the same is just wrong.

Because, like I explained earlier, it makes sense for the SS multiplier to increase, not decrease.

Ok, suppose Goku was a God during the Namek Saga, but he had the same amount of ki, but with godly ki instead. So he had a power level of 3 million with godly ki. According to you, SSGSS Goku during the Namek Saga would have a power level of 6 million. Are you honestly ok with admitting that?

The only way out of this argument is to admit that the multiplier is greater than x2, and therefore admit that I'm right.

Saying Base God Goku in F = SSG Goku is a big assumption (with absolutely nothing that could make you think as such), considering Beerus says Goku lost some of his power after losing SSG, and that he gained a big boost after transforming into SS in BoG and SSGSS in F. As you can see, Goku is merely a 7.2 in SSGSS and 3.6 in base in my list.

Goku was doing just as fine against Beerus even after the SSG transformation ended, and he's been training. There was no difference in his performance after the transformation ended. It's likely that after training, Base God Goku was probably about a 6.5 or so.

[JoeCapricorn]

Although Dragon Ball Super may tell it differently, there was a moment when Vegeta was able to land a blow on Beerus. He briefly became stronger than Goku, but was probably for a moment around 2.5 billion in power level - ten percent of Beerus. Beerus was not expecting any sort of serious competition, however, since up until that point he likely faced foes that only had power levels measurable in at most six or seven digits. In other words, extremely small in comparison. The Super Saiyans would have provided him some competition, but even a Super Saiyan 3 could not come close. Goku already had shown Beerus all three stages of Super Saiyan, so to see a "mere" Super Saiyan 1 come at him even with the amount of fury Vegeta had after Beerus struck Bulma, it probably didn't register in his mind that maybe he might be able to land a blow.

Over a month ago I speculated that Vegeta would hit a power level around 10% of Beerus when he briefly manages to land a blow.

It's kind of funny to see that the show actually mentions 10%. Or spooky.

In the original post I did, I merely multiplied SSJ Gogeta's stated power level of 2.5 billion by the numbers Akira Toriyama gave about Super Saiyan God Goku, Beerus and Whis being 6, 10 and 15. So Beerus in my list was at a power level of 25 billion.

[Doctor.]

I'm not really interested in having this argument. It's pointless. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe.

[nickzambuto]

Mr. Satan has now tanked hits from every major villain in the series since his introduction.

1. Cell
2. Boo
3. Omega Shenron
4. Beerus

Beerus vaporized a planet by tapping his finger, and recently poked Mr. Satan much in the same fashion. Furthermore, Boo poked Mr. Satan at the exact same time, adding even more power to it! Mr. Satan more durable than planets confirmed.

[Blackstripe]

Mr. Satan has now tanked hits from every major villain in the series since his introduction.

1. Cell
2. Boo
3. Omega Shenron
4. Beerus

Beerus vaporized a planet by tapping his finger, and recently poked Mr. Satan much in the same fashion. Furthermore, Boo poked Mr. Satan at the exact same time, adding even more power to it! Mr. Satan more durable than planets confirmed.

Well, he IS the number #1 World Champion, after all.

Mr. Satan > Rageta AND Super Vegetto together.

[JoeCapricorn]

Do we ever see Beerus intentionally kill anyone? He roughs them up, sure, but it seems to me he is taking care not to deliver fatal blows.

Except when it comes to planets. Then everyone dies. But maybe he only feels compelled to kill by destroying entire worlds.

Mr. Satan was dispatched with comic effect - but Bulma is clearly not dead. She probably has a power level that is at most 5, and yet Beerus smacked her away with just enough force to knock her out - not kill her. Still pissed off Vegeta.

So if Beerus only uses a certain amount of power to dispatch those he hits - which would vary immensely between Rageta, SSJ3 Goku, Majin Buu, Gohan, Piccolo, Tienshinhan, 18, Mr. Satan, Gotenks and Bulma. There is a lot of variety of power among all of those characters - a hit to dispatch SSJ3 Goku would certainly kill Mr. Satan, Bulma and maybe Tienshinhan. A hit to dispatch Mr. Satan wouldn't feel like anything to SSJ3 Goku. What I'm trying to get at is Beerus has a lot of control over how much force he uses - the minimal, at all times, even when destroying planets (or half of planets), or smacking ordinary women away. Him powering up is probably not going to look like anything - he can raise or lower his power level without moving or having to squat and scream.

With that said, I think the 10% figure comes from the power Beerus needed to prevent Vegeta's Gallick Cannon from scuffing his clothing. I don't think Beerus himself would be harmed by it, but he doesn't want to be indecent and that blast would have vaporized everything on his body, resulting in a totally naked Beerus - unless his clothing was made from something very durable.

[Blackstripe]

Do we ever see Beerus intentionally kill anyone? He roughs them up, sure, but it seems to me he is taking care not to deliver fatal blows.

Except when it comes to planets. Then everyone dies. But maybe he only feels compelled to kill by destroying entire worlds.

Mr. Satan was dispatched with comic effect - but Bulma is clearly not dead. She probably has a power level that is at most 5, and yet Beerus smacked her away with just enough force to knock her out - not kill her. Still pissed off Vegeta.

So if Beerus only uses a certain amount of power to dispatch those he hits - which would vary immensely between Rageta, SSJ3 Goku, Majin Buu, Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, 18, Mr. Satan, Gotenks and Bulma. There is a lot of variety of power among all of those characters - a hit to dispatch SSJ3 Goku would certainly kill Mr. Satan, Bulma and maybe Tenshinhan. A hit to dispatch Mr. Satan wouldn't feel like anything to SSJ3 Goku. What I'm trying to get at is Beerus has a lot of control over how much force he uses - the minimal, at all times, even when destroying planets (or half of planets), or smacking ordinary women away. Him powering up is probably not going to look like anything - he can raise or lower his power level without moving or having to squat and scream.

With that said, I think the 10% figure comes from the power Beerus needed to prevent Vegeta's Gallick Cannon from scuffing his clothing. I don't think Beerus himself would be harmed by it, but he doesn't want to be indecent and that blast would have vaporized everything on his body, resulting in a totally naked Beerus - unless his clothing was made from something very durable.

Well, I doubt it would have blown it all off, since it's at least partially protected by his aura. But yes, he wouldn't want his outfit to be ruined.

I have it so that Beerus is always at 2.5% of his full power, which is the highest he can perfectly control when striking someone like, say, Bulma. Beerus doesn't mind blowing up worlds, but seems to dislike personally soiling his hands with blood if he can help it.

[singsing]

I have it so that Beerus is always at 2.5% of his full power, which is the highest he can perfectly control when striking someone like, say, Bulma. Beerus doesn't mind blowing up worlds, but seems to dislike personally soiling his hands with blood if he can help it.

Geez how strong do you have Bulma then? 2.5% of Beerus's full power should eviscerate someone like Bulma.

[Blackstripe]

I have it so that Beerus is always at 2.5% of his full power, which is the highest he can perfectly control when striking someone like, say, Bulma. Beerus doesn't mind blowing up worlds, but seems to dislike personally soiling his hands with blood if he can help it.

Geez how strong do you have Bulma then? 2.5% of Beerus's full power should eviscerate someone like Bulma.

You misunderstood my point.

I'm saying that Beerus can perfectly control himself at 2.5% of his full power. In other words, even though he is an eternity beyond Bulma even with that tiny amount of his power, he can easily restrain himself while using it.

[Chiki]

Bulma isn't that weak, her speed and accuracy is well above Gohan's since she landed a hit on Beerus.

[Blackstripe]

So, I've been thinking something over.

I made a joke earlier about how Vegeta didn't get a noticeable power boost when he flew into a rage over SPC killing Trunks, but did when Beerus merely slapped Bulma.

Someone else (I'm sorry, I forget who) also speculated that maybe Vegeta tapped into some latent God-power for a brief period. I thought that was an interesting idea, and it would explain the scene nicely. I thought about it some more, and I think I came up with a pretty decent reason why he received no such rage boost against Cell.

To put it bluntly, Vegeta was still too much of an asshole back then.

If you recall, it's stated that to become a Super Saiyan God, you must have five Saiyans with righteous hearts infuse a sixth with their power. We know for certain that Vegeta by the BoG era meets this qualification. If he indeed temporarily tapped into some latent God-power, then it makes sense why Cell Saga Vegeta couldn't, no matter how angry he was.

If Vegeta had been as righteous as he was in BoG when SPC killed Trunks, he probably would have received the power up, and SPC would've been obliterated in a heartbeat.

[Bullza]

I was just reminded of something. Remember when Goku was fighting Frieza and they were roughly even? At that point Frieza's power level would have been 2.5% of his maximum. Then to deal with Goku he powers up to what would seem to be an unnecessarily high level of 50% even though so much as 10% would have been far above what Goku had shown him to be capable of at that point?

Maybe it's the same thing with Beerus and 10% is far more than what was required to withstand Vegeta's attacks.

[Doctor.]

I was just reminded of something. Remember when Goku was fighting Freeza and they were roughly even? At that point Freeza's power level would have been 2.5% of his maximum. Then to deal with Goku he powers up to what would seem to be an unnecessarily high level of 50% even though so much as 10% would have been far above what Goku had shown him to be capable of at that point?

Maybe it's the same thing with Beerus and 10% is far more than what was required to withstand Vegeta's attacks.

Goku was using Kaioken x10, 10% wouldn't have been enough.

[Blackstripe]

I was just reminded of something. Remember when Goku was fighting Freeza and they were roughly even? At that point Freeza's power level would have been 2.5% of his maximum. Then to deal with Goku he powers up to what would seem to be an unnecessarily high level of 50% even though so much as 10% would have been far above what Goku had shown him to be capable of at that point?

Maybe it's the same thing with Beerus and 10% is far more than what was required to withstand Vegeta's attacks.

Goku was using Kaioken x10, 10% wouldn't have been enough.

Had he used it up to that point? I don't recall.

[Doctor.]

I was just reminded of something. Remember when Goku was fighting Freeza and they were roughly even? At that point Freeza's power level would have been 2.5% of his maximum. Then to deal with Goku he powers up to what would seem to be an unnecessarily high level of 50% even though so much as 10% would have been far above what Goku had shown him to be capable of at that point?

Maybe it's the same thing with Beerus and 10% is far more than what was required to withstand Vegeta's attacks.

Goku was using Kaioken x10, 10% wouldn't have been enough.

Had he used it up to that point? I don't recall.

He started using it when Freeza used 50% of his power.

[Blackstripe]

He started using it when Freeza used 50% of his power.

Right, I think what Bullza was saying was that Freeza did it as a precaution. Gokuu's KKx10 was merely half of Freeza's 50% strength, so there is truth in this.

[Doctor.]

He started using it when Freeza used 50% of his power.

Right, I think what Bullza was saying was that Freeza did it as a precaution. Gokuu's KKx10 was merely half of Freeza's 50% strength, so there is truth in this.

Freeza probably just wanted to induce a sense of despair before killing Goku off, just like he did with the rest of the group.

But that's different than Beerus, the God didn't want to see Vegeta suffer, he used 10% because that's how much he had to use in order to defeat him.

You can say Vegeta is like 5% of Beerus because his Galick Gun did nothing and normally attacks like that have a 2x multiplier (though that's a very shaky argument since the power an attack has is never set and is dependent on what the writer feels like).