The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Captain Space]

Inspired from withheldforprivacy.

Hypothetical Situation
Hypothetically, say the units read from all of the scouters in the series were in indecipherable, some alien unit + number we didn't know, and Bulma never fixed the scouter to have normal readings. So we couldn't determine power gaps in the series (i,e; not knowing Saiyan arc Vegeta is 2.25x Goku, not knowing 1st form Freeza is 12x Nail, not knowing Raditz is 3-4x Goku, not knowing Goku when arriving on Namek is 1.33x weaker than Ginyu (since we couldn't divide his Kaioken x2 by a number), etc..). Or simply put, there were no scouter readings, and no supplemental guidebook information on battle powers. Who do you think would win these fights?

1. Yajirobe (Saiyan arc) vs. Goku (23rd TB)
2. Krillin (post-Guru) vs. Vegeta (Saiyan arc)
3. Zarbon (Monster) vs. Nail
4. Base Goku (Arrival on Namek; no Kaioken) vs. Captain Ginyu
5. Base Goku ((Arrival on Namek; Kaioken x10) vs. Freeza (1st form)

1. Kami said they both surpassed him, but Goku had three years of training whereas Yajirobe had one, and he stopped training like halfway through it, soooo Goku.
2. Not knowing the numbers I would've given this one about 50/50. (I seem to do that a lot...)
3. The story sorta gives the impression that Freeza's elites are more than Namek's natives can handle, so I'd have said Zarbon.
4. Given his performance against the other Ginyus, even knowing that the Captain is a cut above the rest, Goku with ease.
5. Given that Goku was trying to "save his strength for Freeza" and that up to this point in the story our knowledge was A. Freeza has one transformation he has yet to reveal, B. Goku can probably use the Kaioken up to x10, and C. They're gonna fight soon, right? ...I'd have assumed that Goku's max (i.e. x10) power would fall somewhere between Freeza's then-thought-to-be-two forms; therefore, Goku.

[LightBing]

Inspired from withheldforprivacy.

Hypothetical Situation
Hypothetically, say the units read from all of the scouters in the series were in indecipherable, some alien unit + number we didn't know, and Bulma never fixed the scouter to have normal readings. So we couldn't determine power gaps in the series (i,e; not knowing Saiyan arc Vegeta is 2.25x Goku, not knowing 1st form Freeza is 12x Nail, not knowing Raditz is 3-4x Goku, not knowing Goku when arriving on Namek is 1.33x weaker than Ginyu (since we couldn't divide his Kaioken x2 by a number), etc..). Or simply put, there were no scouter readings, and no supplemental guidebook information on battle powers. Who do you think would win these fights?

1. Yajirobe (Saiyan arc) vs. Goku (23rd TB)
2. Krillin (post-Guru) vs. Vegeta (Saiyan arc)
3. Zarbon (Monster) vs. Nail
4. Base Goku (Arrival on Namek; no Kaioken) vs. Captain Ginyu
5. Base Goku ((Arrival on Namek; Kaioken x10) vs. Freeza (1st form)

Fun exercise.

1. I would say Goku. Yajirobe received the same training Goku did with Kami, and then just lazed around eating. It would be a very close fight, they might be even in power, unfortunately for Yajirobe he never the showed ability to use ki attacks, so he loses.
2. Vegeta very easily, from this perspective Vegeta is a beast, Kuririn boost doesn't have much to compare, I would assume he would still be well below Vegeta.
3.This one would be for Nail. Vegeta defeated Zarbon, a bit latter Nail tells the Saiyan to piss off without showing signs of being affected by his threats. Power-scaling working.
4. I wouldn't know. A tie? Both are hyped, there's their superiority when compared with the other members of the Ginyu Force, nothing more.
5. Goku after a decent fight. Kaioken was huge in the arc before, this version is immensely better. Freeza only feat is destroying Nail, we can assume that because he's the big bad, this extrapolates into much more than Ginyu could be capable off.

[AvatarReiko]

Goku(Post-King Kai) vs Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Choutsu, Gohan

- Goku cannot use Kaioken
- The Team all attack him together

[Lord Beerus]

Goku(Post-King Kai) vs Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Choutsu, Gohan

- Goku cannot use Kaioken
- The Team all attack him together

Goku blows them all away by just powering up.

[Noah]

New matches:

Hypothetical New God Transformations

- SSGSS2 Goku x Beerus

- SSGSS3 Goku x Whis

[Lunatic Fringe]

New matches:

Hypothetical New God Transformations

- SSGSS2 Goku x Beerus

- SSGSS3 Goku x Whis

- Goku wins with moderate effort.
- Whis manages to pull out ahead.

#19(post-Goku ki absorption) vs. Android Saga Piccolo
#16 vs. SSJ Kid Trunks(pre-RoSaT)
LSSJ Broly(Movie 8 ) vs. Full Power Bojack
Saiyan Saga Mr. Popo vs. 1 Saibaman
Final Form Freeza(100%) vs. Hypothetical SSJ Vegeta(Post-Dende Zenkai)

[Lord Beerus]

New matches:

Hypothetical New God Transformations

- SSGSS2 Goku x Beerus

- SSGSS3 Goku x Whis

Now how much of a true increase in power was there when Goku combined the power of a SSJ and SSJG? I honestly think the power the SSJ transformation provided an increase in power of the equivalent of Goku becoming a 7-7.5, when he was previously a 6 as a Super Saiyan God. As Whis believed that two SSJGSSJ's would be strong enough to take on and possibly defeat Beerus. Which would mean that the SSJ transformation provided an increase of 1-1.5. By virtue, becoming a SSJGSSJ2 would make Goku an 8-8.5 and would mean he would still lose against Beerus. However, becoming a SSJGSSJ3 would make Goku a 12-12.5, and he would defeat Beerus but lose against Whis. But I reckon the stamina issue that with tapping into the realm of power that SSJ3 provides would make being an SSJGSSJ3 impractical in combat.

#19(post-Goku ki absorption) vs. Android Saga Piccolo
#16 vs. SSJ Kid Trunks(pre-RoSaT)
LSSJ Broly(Movie 8 ) vs. Full Power Bojack
Saiyan Saga Mr. Popo vs. 1 Saibaman
Final Form Freeza(100%) vs. Hypothetical SSJ Vegeta(Post-Dende Zenkai)

- 19 takes this.
- #16 gets turned into scrap metal
- Bojack one shots
- Saibaman takes this easily
- Freeza stomps. I don't think Vegeta after his third(?) zenkai even cracked the million barrier. And even if he did, it was barely over a million.

[Lunatic Fringe]

New matches:

Hypothetical New God Transformations

- SSGSS2 Goku x Beerus

- SSGSS3 Goku x Whis

Now how much of a true increase in power was there when Goku combined the power of a SSJ and SSJG? I honestly think the power the SSJ transformation provided an increase in power of the equivalent of Goku becoming a 7-7.5, when he was previously a 6 as a Super Saiyan God. As Whis believed that two SSJGSSJ's would be strong enough to take on and possibly defeat Beerus. Which would mean that the SSJ transformation provided an increase of 1-1.5. By virtue, becoming a SSJGSSJ2 would make Goku an 8-8.5 and would mean he would still lose against Beerus. However, becoming a SSJGSSJ3 would make Goku a 12-12.5, and he would defeat Beerus but lose against Whis. But I reckon the stamina issue that with tapping into the realm of power that SSJ3 provides would make being an SSJGSSJ3 impractical in combat.

#19(post-Goku ki absorption) vs. Android Saga Piccolo
#16 vs. SSJ Kid Trunks(pre-RoSaT)
LSSJ Broly(Movie 8 ) vs. Full Power Bojack
Saiyan Saga Mr. Popo vs. 1 Saibaman
Final Form Freeza(100%) vs. Hypothetical SSJ Vegeta(Post-Dende Zenkai)

- 19 takes this.
- #16 gets turned into scrap metal
- Bojack one shots
- Saibaman takes this easily
- Freeza stomps. I don't think Vegeta after his third(?) zenkai even cracked the million barrier. And even if he did, it was barely over a million.

I actually think Vegeta could either hold his own before losing or win by the skin of his teeth. 2nd Form Freeza is over a million and Vegeta is staggered by how strong he is. He seems confident that he's able to beat Freeza in his final form, which is at 3% at this point, even after observing Piccolo, who's also slightly above a million, getting beaten down by Freeza's third form. So, with that said, I personally have the PL's look like:

-3rd Form Freeza = around 2,000,000
-Dende Zenkai Vegeta = 2,300,000 - 2,500,000

With the SSJ multiplier taken into effect, that would make him 115,000,000 - 125,000,000 compared to 120,000,000 from 100% Final Form Freeza.

[Lord Beerus]

- Freeza stomps. I don't think Vegeta after his third(?) zenkai even cracked the million barrier. And even if he did, it was barely over a million.

I actually think Vegeta could either hold his own before losing or win by the skin of his teeth. 2nd Form Freeza is over a million and Vegeta is staggered by how strong he is. He seems confident that he's able to beat Freeza in his final form, which is at 3% at this point, even after observing Piccolo, who's also slightly above a million, getting beaten down by Freeza's third form. So, with that said, I personally have the PL's look like:

-3rd Form Freeza = around 2,000,000
-Dende Zenkai Vegeta = 2,300,000 - 2,500,000

With the SSJ multiplier taken into effect, that would make him 115,000,000 - 125,000,000 compared to 120,000,000 from 100% Final Form Freeza.

See, I think Vegeta was just being overconfident. I mean, like you said yourself, Freeza was using roughly 3% of the power in his Final Form first time round and when Vegeta takes him on, he gets his ass kicked effortlessly, and Freeza BP must have been ~3,500,000, and for Vegeta to get his ass kicked the way he did, that would put his BP at ~1,500,000 at best.

[Captain Space]

See, I think Vegeta was just being overconfident. I mean, like you said yourself, Freeza was using roughly 3% of the power in his Final Form first time round and when Vegeta takes him on, he gets his ass kicked effortlessly, and Freeza BP must have been ~3,500,000, and for Vegeta to get his ass kicked the way he did, that would put his BP at ~1,500,000 at best.

Whatever the exact number, it's definitely well over a million--since Piccolo was hovering somewhere around the million mark, and Vegeta was the only one who could keep up with (some of) Freeza's movements (the blast meant for Gohan, and the first time Freeza dodged him, Vegeta managed to see and follow it, something I'm pretty sure nobody else including Piccolo did/could do).

#19(post-Goku ki absorption) vs. Android Saga Piccolo
#16 vs. SSJ Kid Trunks(pre-RoSaT)
LSSJ Broly(Movie 8 ) vs. Full Power Bojack
Saiyan Saga Mr. Popo vs. 1 Saibaman
Final Form Freeza(100%) vs. Hypothetical SSJ Vegeta(Post-Dende Zenkai)

I got the impression that Piccolo, (non-sick) Goku and Vegeta were all just laughably above the first two androids whatever they did, so Piccolo.
At a guess, Trunks.
Broly; Bojack wasn't even that far above FPSSJ level.
The Saibaman, ridiculously easy; I don't buy that Popo is anything but weaker than Kami.
Given that SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza were equal, and there was quite the gap between Goku and Vegeta at that point, I have to imagine Vegeta would lose rather horribly (unless SSJ is, like, a flat additive boost or something, which I guess isn't impossible but seems much less likely).

[Lunatic Fringe]

Whatever the exact number, it's definitely well over a million--since Piccolo was hovering somewhere around the million mark, and Vegeta was the only one who could keep up with (some of) Freeza's movements (the blast meant for Gohan, and the first time Freeza dodged him, Vegeta managed to see and follow it, something I'm pretty sure nobody else including Piccolo did/could do).

#19(post-Goku ki absorption) vs. Android Saga Piccolo
#16 vs. SSJ Kid Trunks(pre-RoSaT)
LSSJ Broly(Movie 8 ) vs. Full Power Bojack
Saiyan Saga Mr. Popo vs. 1 Saibaman
Final Form Freeza(100%) vs. Hypothetical SSJ Vegeta(Post-Dende Zenkai)

I got the impression that Piccolo, (non-sick) Goku and Vegeta were all just laughably above the first two androids whatever they did, so Piccolo.
At a guess, Trunks.
Broly; Bojack wasn't even that far above FPSSJ level.
The Saibaman, ridiculously easy; I don't buy that Popo is anything but weaker than Kami.
Given that SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza were equal, and there was quite the gap between Goku and Vegeta at that point, I have to imagine Vegeta would lose rather horribly (unless SSJ is, like, a flat additive boost or something, which I guess isn't impossible but seems much less likely).

It's not impossible if each fighter is at 100%. Given how Vegeta was healed of all of his injuries after Dende healed him and Freeza barely took any damage that would make a significant difference, if Vegeta were to trasnform into a SSJ right from the start, instead of letting Freeza pound him into the dirt, and Freeza were to do the same to try and hold off Vegeta, I'd say it'd be a pretty even fight where either Vegeta holds his own for a bit but loses, even taking Freeza's fatigue into account, or Vegeta eventually overcomes, which is made MUCH easier when fatigue is taken in account.

Also, when were SSJ Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza equal? That's news to me.

[Captain Space]

It's not impossible if each fighter is at 100%. Given how Vegeta was healed of all of his injuries after Dende healed him and Freeza barely took any damage that would make a significant difference, if Vegeta were to trasnform into a SSJ right from the start, instead of letting Freeza pound him into the dirt, and Freeza were to do the same to try and hold off Vegeta, I'd say it'd be a pretty even fight where either Vegeta holds his own for a bit but loses, even taking Freeza's fatigue into account, or Vegeta eventually overcomes, which is made MUCH easier when fatigue is taken in account.

Also, when were SSJ Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza equal? That's news to me.

Okay, addressing the second point first: Until Freeza started getting tired and losing power, they were completely even. (After the bit where Goku was just testing Freeza) They both made some preliminary blows at first, then had a big energy-clash, which was deadlocked until Freeza ducked out of it; then they stopped fighting for a bit to muck around with dragons and such, then they settled down to fight again, and were basically blow-for-blow equal until the very end when Freeza's power suddenly slipped away, leading to Goku smacking him around and etc.

And I...don't really understand your first point. If Vegeta were to transform into an SSJ right from the start instead of getting beaten up...his base was still significantly weaker than Goku, right? So...his SSJ would be weaker than Goku's...so...he'd do worse against Freeza...? I don't see what you're saying or why the scenario you're offering would happen.

In any case, the only reason 100% Freeza's stamina was so limited was because of all the damage he previously took at 50% (Genkidama and the initial beating from SSJ Goku). So, since the match just specifies normal 100% Freeza I assume this doesn't mean a previously-beaten-up 100% Freeza (in the same way that Vegeta wouldn't already be beaten up here), so he wouldn't tire out nearly as fast, if at all.

[Lunatic Fringe]

Okay, addressing the second point first: Until Freeza started getting tired and losing power, they were completely even. (After the bit where Goku was just testing Freeza) They both made some preliminary blows at first, then had a big energy-clash, which was deadlocked until Freeza ducked out of it; then they stopped fighting for a bit to muck around with dragons and such, then they settled down to fight again, and were basically blow-for-blow equal until the very end when Freeza's power suddenly slipped away, leading to Goku smacking him around and etc.

And I...don't really understand your first point. If Vegeta were to transform into an SSJ right from the start instead of getting beaten up...his base was still significantly weaker than Goku, right? So...his SSJ would be weaker than Goku's...so...he'd do worse against Freeza...? I don't see what you're saying or why the scenario you're offering would happen.

In any case, the only reason 100% Freeza's stamina was so limited was because of all the damage he previously took at 50% (Genkidama and the initial beating from SSJ Goku). So, since the match just specifies normal 100% Freeza I assume this doesn't mean a previously-beaten-up 100% Freeza (in the same way that Vegeta wouldn't already be beaten up here), so he wouldn't tire out nearly as fast, if at all.

He'd do worse than SSJ Goku but with the numbers I posted earlier, pertaining to how strong I think he was after his final Zenkai, I don't think it'd be a foregone conclusion that he outright loses.

- Vegeta gets stronger from Zenkai. Vegeta transforms into SSJ.
- Freeza retaliates by going at 100%
- Then they fight.

Like I said, Freeza barely took any damage and only got really beat up by the time Goku shows up and Dende completely heals Vegeta of all of his injuries so any power boosts to both characters at that point could be taken at face value, without having to factor in how much damage would come into play. Even though SSJ Goku vs. 100% Final Form Freeza was at one point even, that wouldn't be the case if both were at 100% before they transformed so I don't think it's a good comparison to make between a fight between a worn out SSJ Goku vs. a worn out 100% Final Form Freeza vs. a fight between completely healthy SSJ Freeza Saga Vegeta and a completely healthy 100% Final Form Freeza.

[Captain Space]

He'd do worse than SSJ Goku but with the numbers I posted earlier, pertaining to how strong I think he was after his final Zenkai, I don't think it'd be a foregone conclusion that he outright loses.

- Vegeta gets stronger from Zenkai. Vegeta transforms into SSJ.
- Freeza retaliates by going at 100%
- Then they fight.

Like I said, Freeza barely took any damage and only got really beat up by the time Goku shows up and Dende completely heals Vegeta of all of his injuries so any power boosts to both characters at that point could be taken at face value, without having to factor in how much damage would come into play. Even though SSJ Goku vs. 100% Final Form Freeza was at one point even, that wouldn't be the case if both were at 100% before they transformed so I don't think it's a good comparison to make between a fight between a worn out SSJ Goku vs. a worn out 100% Final Form Freeza vs. a fight between completely healthy SSJ Freeza Saga Vegeta and a completely healthy 100% Final Form Freeza.

I dunno...doesn't Goku and Freeza both being damaged kind of cancel each other out? Anyway, Freeza's injuries were stated to decrease his stamina (hence why he got tired), not his power. I got the impression that going SSJ pretty much revitalised him (he was pretty much done before transforming, he seemed fine after doing so) so his injuries so far weren't really a factor (or rather, at worst he was operating on 0 base power + all his SSJ power, and the only way that translates to Vegeta doing as well or better is if the relatively-tiny amount Goku's base amounted to is more of a difference than the gap between SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta).

Anyway, my overall point is that if tired Freeza and tired Goku were equal--if they were even weaker than they would otherwise be, which I don't think they were as I said above--it should probably still hold that fresh Freeza and fresh Goku would be equal too. And therefore the significantly-weaker Vegeta would be at a disadvantage, and probably lose.

[Doctor.]

Gohan Boo (with SS4 Gogeta absorbed; no time limit) vs Beerus
Gohan Boo (with Beerus absorbed) vs Whis

[Lunatic Fringe]

I dunno...doesn't Goku and Freeza both being damaged kind of cancel each other out? Anyway, Freeza's injuries were stated to decrease his stamina (hence why he got tired), not his power. I got the impression that going SSJ pretty much revitalised him (he was pretty much done before transforming, he seemed fine after doing so) so his injuries so far weren't really a factor (or rather, at worst he was operating on 0 base power + all his SSJ power, and the only way that translates to Vegeta doing as well or better is if the relatively-tiny amount Goku's base amounted to is more of a difference than the gap between SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta).

Anyway, my overall point is that if tired Freeza and tired Goku were equal--if they were even weaker than they would otherwise be, which I don't think they were as I said above--it should probably still hold that fresh Freeza and fresh Goku would be equal too. And therefore the significantly-weaker Vegeta would be at a disadvantage, and probably lose.

They'd only cancel each other out if both injuries took into effect at an equal rate, which I don't think they do for the following reason, which also ties into your "tired Freeza vs. Tired SSJ Goku being equal = Fresh Freeza vs. Fresh SSJ Goku" theory:

Playing the numbers game straight out means that this is a curbstomp in Goku's favor since 3,000,000 x 50 = 150,000,000, which wouldn't be much of an issue to beat a BP of 120,000,000. In order for them to be equal after both fighters would take damage, Goku would've had to have endured worse than Freeza.

[LightBing]

Gohan Boo (with SS4 Gogeta absorbed; no time limit) vs Beerus
Gohan Boo (with Beerus absorbed) vs Whis

Don't know the first match up. But Whis wins the second easily, unless you consider Gohan Boo, half of Beerus or close to it. Of course people might have different formulas of how absorption works, but for me is pure addition.

[Doctor.]

Gohan Boo (with SS4 Gogeta absorbed; no time limit) vs Beerus
Gohan Boo (with Beerus absorbed) vs Whis

Don't know the first match up. But Whis wins the second easily, unless you consider Gohan Boo, half of Beerus or close to it. Of course people might have different formulas of how absorption works, but for me is pure addition.

I was wondering if Boo's abilities and regeneration would make a difference or not.

[supercat]

Gohan Boo (with SS4 Gogeta absorbed; no time limit) vs Beerus
Gohan Boo (with Beerus absorbed) vs Whis

Well Buuhan is an irrelevant variable in this equation, so these two fights would be nothing short of SSJ4 Gogeta vs Beerus and Whis (in terms of power).

I have Gogeta a notch or two above Beerus, so Buu-Gogeta takes this after exerting a massive amount of effort. That said, if Buu inherits Gogeta's tendency to moronically fool around, I'd say he's definitely in for a beating. Between the destroyer's adept combat prowess and years of experience, this would be anything but a walk in the park for the vile menace --even with dragon-busting power at his disposal.

As for match #2, Whis annihilates GT's finest warrior in a matter of seconds. Effortlessly rendering Beerus unconscious with a mere chop is a major feat that I doubt anyone in GT could ever even conceive of pulling off. Gogeta's failure to incinerate Omega Shenron (around Golden Frieza-tier in my opinion) with his Big Bang Kamehameha is a good enough indicator to me that the two were not that far apart.

Abilities and regeneration would only help him in match #1. Feeble attacks like Candy Beam and such would likely do nothing against an insurmountable force like Whis.

[LightBing]

Gohan Boo (with SS4 Gogeta absorbed; no time limit) vs Beerus
Gohan Boo (with Beerus absorbed) vs Whis

Don't know the first match up. But Whis wins the second easily, unless you consider Gohan Boo, half of Beerus or close to it. Of course people might have different formulas of how absorption works, but for me is pure addition.

I was wondering if Boo's abilities and regeneration would make a difference or not.

With a power gap this big, it wouldn't. For it to have an effect, the gap would have to be a bit smaller than Super Boo vs SSJ3 Gotenks.