Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Last time they made Pan significant she became one of the worst anime characters of all time.

[ekrolo2]

She's pretty okay in the JPN version of GT and I personally don't find her too bad in the dub either.

[Chiki]

I think it's a given that Pan will be the youngest Super Saiyan, and very well might be born already a Super Saiyan. The genetic mix of Saiyan and Human blood is shown to create an extremely powerful hybrid; Gohan was born from a Goku who's power level was just over 400, yet Gohan's maximum potential was apparently effortless Super Boo busting. Then we have Goten, who was born from a Mastered Super Saiyan Goku, and at the age of 7 with almost no training or experience of any kind (remember that Goten didn't even know how to fly) his sheer natural power was already enough to transform and land somewhere around Android 18 - Piccolo level. Gohan even said that he would need to start taking his training seriously, or else the kids were going to leave him in the dust. I have no doubt that if Goten underwent Elder Kai's potential unlocking ritual instead of Gohan, he'd be smacking around Super Vegetto as easily as he smacked around that redneck kid at the tournament. I mean think about it, Saiyan/Human hybrid born from BP 400 father has the strength to stomp Super Boo, so Saiyan/Human hybrid born from a Mastered Super Saiyan must be astronomically more powerful than even that.

And THEN we have Pan... oh my goodness, a Saiyan/Human hybrid born from Ultimate Gohan. She and Oob (who was naturally born with the power of Majin Boo so he must have insane potential, like how Freeza was born with a BP of 120 million and could become god level in a few months) are going to lead the next generation into a whole new world of power, vastly outstripping their ancestors and surpassing even Beerus and Whis. I believe that Oob and Pan are going to be the first characters in the franchise with legitimate universal-level power. It's only appropriate, if you ask me. They are both prodigies on an entirely different scale from Gohan/Goten/Freeza, who in turn are prodigies on a different scale from Saiyan Prince Vegeta.

Broly might not be canon, but on a sidenote, I would have him of comparable status to Goten.

This Pan worshipping is ridiculous. The Gods are on a completely different power level; even if Pan has more potential than Ultimate Gohan, even twice as much potential as Ultimate Gohan won't cut it against Beerus and Whis.

[Doctor.]

Why wouldn't Pan's potential cut it when Freeza is able to reach around 80% of Beerus?

[Chiki]

Why wouldn't Pan's potential cut it when Freeza is able to reach around 80% of Beerus?

Because Ultimate Gohan's potential can't even compare to Frieza's. Gohan can't even reach 5% of Beerus! How would Pan?

I doubt the difference between a hypothetical Ultimate Goku and Gohan is even x2 or x1.5 (since SSJ3 Goku is not so far away from Ultimate Gohan in terms of power, just a tier below). Ultimate Goku would definitely be able to at least compete with Gohan since SSJ3 Goku hadn't even reached his full potential yet. Pan's potential would need to be x16 greater than Gohan's to even reach Frieza's.. if Gohan's potential is only like a x1.5 above Goku's, then why should Pan's be x16 above Gohan's?

Also, I see no reason for Pan's potential to be greater than the half-Saiyans. Her blood is even more diluted compared to theirs.

[LightBing]

How strong were Goku's and Vegeta's fathers? Potential is ever-changing and ever-growing. Some characters are more advantageous than others, but there's no limitation. Be it Mr Satan or Freeza. The difference is Freeza might need to train 4 months to reach a level, and Mr Satan 1 million. I see the humans keeping up with base Saiyans if they tried. Most cases of falling behind is by choice and not having insane power-ups.

[Doctor.]

Why wouldn't Pan's potential cut it when Freeza is able to reach around 80% of Beerus?

Because Ultimate Gohan's potential can't even compare to Freeza's. Gohan can't even reach 5% of Beerus! How would Pan?

I doubt the difference between a hypothetical Ultimate Goku and Gohan is even x2 or x1.5 (since SSJ3 Goku is not so far away from Ultimate Gohan in terms of power, just a tier below). Ultimate Goku would definitely be able to at least compete with Gohan since SSJ3 Goku hadn't even reached his full potential yet. Pan's potential would need to be x16 greater than Gohan's to even reach Freeza's.. if Gohan's potential is only like a x1.5 above Goku's, then why should Pan's be x16 above Gohan's?

Also, I see no reason for Pan's potential to be greater than the half-Saiyans. Her blood is even more diluted compared to theirs.

If Gohan was a Super Saiyan God, he'd be "1.5x" stronger than Goku then, which would make him at least 90% of Beerus.

[Chiki]

Why wouldn't Pan's potential cut it when Freeza is able to reach around 80% of Beerus?

Because Ultimate Gohan's potential can't even compare to Freeza's. Gohan can't even reach 5% of Beerus! How would Pan?

I doubt the difference between a hypothetical Ultimate Goku and Gohan is even x2 or x1.5 (since SSJ3 Goku is not so far away from Ultimate Gohan in terms of power, just a tier below). Ultimate Goku would definitely be able to at least compete with Gohan since SSJ3 Goku hadn't even reached his full potential yet. Pan's potential would need to be x16 greater than Gohan's to even reach Freeza's.. if Gohan's potential is only like a x1.5 above Goku's, then why should Pan's be x16 above Gohan's?

Also, I see no reason for Pan's potential to be greater than the half-Saiyans. Her blood is even more diluted compared to theirs.

If Gohan was a Super Saiyan God, he'd be "1.5x" stronger than Goku then, which would make him at least 90% of Beerus.

This discussion was assuming that Gohan and Pan won't turn into a Super Saiyan God (the post I was replying to said nothing about it).

How strong were Goku's and Vegeta's fathers? Potential is ever-changing and ever-growing. Some characters are more advantageous than others, but there's no limitation. Be it Mr Satan or Freeza. The difference is Freeza might need to train 4 months to reach a level, and Mr Satan 1 million. I see the humans keeping up with base Saiyans if they tried. Most cases of falling behind is by choice and not having insane power-ups.

That's not true, even in real life. The only race that seems to have limitless potential in the DB series is the Saiyans. Do you honestly really think Mr. Satan could reach Beerus's level in 1 million years of training? =_= If so I have nothing to say.

[rereboy]

Because Ultimate Gohan's potential can't even compare to Freeza's.

That's only if you assume that Gohan couldn't get stronger than he did at the Buu saga... which, considering that apparently Vegeta has surpassed that level on his own and that Gohan has always shown more potential than Vegeta, doesn't seem like a correct assumption.

Not to mention that pretty much every time someone had their potential "unlocked", they still became stronger than that afterwards.

[LightBing]

How strong were Goku's and Vegeta's fathers? Potential is ever-changing and ever-growing. Some characters are more advantageous than others, but there's no limitation. Be it Mr Satan or Freeza. The difference is Freeza might need to train 4 months to reach a level, and Mr Satan 1 million. I see the humans keeping up with base Saiyans if they tried. Most cases of falling behind is by choice and not having insane power-ups.

That's not true, even in real life. The only race that seems to have limitless potential in the DB series is the Saiyans. Do you honestly really think Mr. Satan could reach Beerus's level in 1 million years of training? =_= If so I have nothing to say.

Not sure what real life has to do with this. I do, if he has access to great training methods, instead of just doing push-ups. There were multiple "bring out your potential method"s in the series: Gohan had at least two, Kuririn got one with Guru but still felt the need to train for the Androids, Goku when he drank the Chōshinsui.
The only reason Saiyans got far ahead of the humans and everybody else, was because of zenkais and then SSJ transformations. Every time they or Piccolo undertook the same training methods, they had similar or better gains to the Saiyans. It's the same thing Goku told to Vegeta, a low-class can surpass an elite. There's different growth rates and those who can take more gains from the same training, but nobody has a ceiling. It kinda goes against a part of what Dragon Ball represents, with hard-work you can get anywhere. Even if Goku got many things to fall on his lap.

[JoeCapricorn]

We'll probably see for sure soon enough - Episode 13 could even be a slice of life episode between the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F arcs.

Or I can eat my words if I'm totally wrong. This is all just fun speculation.

At the very least, Pan transformed briefly into Super Saiyan during that ritual. No doubt in my mind about it. It even made Videl turn Super Saiyan, because there is a transfer of Saiyan blood through the umbilical cord, or something like that, that could enable a pure human to go Super Saiyan. Lots of ki of that sort as well.

I don't think this is a readily available transformation for Videl. When Pan is born, I doubt she'd be able to tap into that ability. On the other hand, I think some of the ki might have stuck around, making Videl stronger as a whole.

Here's the image of Videl as a Super Saiyan:

Spoiler:

This is at a point when the initial golden glow is more or less gone, showing that her hair in fact turned blonde for that short amount of time. That's not a result of light reflecting off of her hair - her hair is black, so is the demon face on her shirt, but the demon stays black even in the golden glow. Her eyes are also slightly paler. When the ritual ends, her hair stops floating - it doesn't spike up entirely though. Also, at no point during the ritual do they portray her hair as black, so this is unlikely to be a coloring mistake (like ginger Vegeta was).

[Chiki]

How strong were Goku's and Vegeta's fathers? Potential is ever-changing and ever-growing. Some characters are more advantageous than others, but there's no limitation. Be it Mr Satan or Freeza. The difference is Freeza might need to train 4 months to reach a level, and Mr Satan 1 million. I see the humans keeping up with base Saiyans if they tried. Most cases of falling behind is by choice and not having insane power-ups.

That's not true, even in real life. The only race that seems to have limitless potential in the DB series is the Saiyans. Do you honestly really think Mr. Satan could reach Beerus's level in 1 million years of training? =_= If so I have nothing to say.

Not sure what real life has to do with this. I do, if he has access to great training methods, instead of just doing push-ups. There were multiple "bring out your potential method"s in the series: Gohan had at least two, Kuririn got one with Guru but still felt the need to train for the Androids, Goku when he drank the Chōshinsui.
The only reason Saiyans got far ahead of the humans and everybody else, was because of zenkais and then SSJ transformations. Every time they or Piccolo undertook the same training methods, they had similar or better gains to the Saiyans. It's the same thing Goku told to Vegeta, a low-class can surpass an elite. There's different growth rates and those who can take more gains from the same training, but nobody has a ceiling. It kinda goes against a part of what Dragon Ball represents, with hard-work you can get anywhere. Even if Goku got many things to fall on his lap.

Real life has plenty to do with it. After all, humans, Saiyans, Earth, the universe, four-limbed creatures, science etc. is all based on real life!

If everyone has the same potential then who cares about Pan? Her potential is the same as Mr. Satan's and Mr. Briefs's.

[LightBing]

Real life has plenty to do with it. After all, humans, Saiyans, Earth, the universe, four-limbed creatures, science etc. is all based on real life!

If everyone has the same potential then who cares about Pan? Her potential is the same as Mr. Satan's and Mr. Briefs's.

Why the sarcasm? The real-life line is in response to your own.
My point is that nobody has a limit and there's different growth rates, I said it more than once and explained it. What are your points? You're being dismissive and not challenging my opinion nor providing prove for yours.

[Chiki]

Real life has plenty to do with it. After all, humans, Saiyans, Earth, the universe, four-limbed creatures, science etc. is all based on real life!

If everyone has the same potential then who cares about Pan? Her potential is the same as Mr. Satan's and Mr. Briefs's.

Why the sarcasm? The real-life line is in response to your own.
My point is that nobody has a limit and there's different growth rates, I said it more than once and explained it. What are your points? You're being dismissive and not challenging my opinion nor providing prove for yours.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Some statements you just can't prove because they're obvious. Ex: the external world exists. How do you know the external world exists? Do you have any evidence for it? You might say "oh, we can just see and touch and interact with the external world!" but how do you know you're not a brain in the vat, fed with illusory experiences like that?

Similarly, there's no way you can just "prove" that Mr. Satan and Mr. Briefs don't have the same amount of potential as Whis. It was never mentioned in the manga, so even asking for a proof is silly. But the statement and thought of it is so ridiculous that it's obvious Mr. Briefs can never be as powerful as Whis, not even if he took an infinite number of years to train.

[LightBing]

Real life has plenty to do with it. After all, humans, Saiyans, Earth, the universe, four-limbed creatures, science etc. is all based on real life!

If everyone has the same potential then who cares about Pan? Her potential is the same as Mr. Satan's and Mr. Briefs's.

Why the sarcasm? The real-life line is in response to your own.
My point is that nobody has a limit and there's different growth rates, I said it more than once and explained it. What are your points? You're being dismissive and not challenging my opinion nor providing prove for yours.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Some statements you just can't prove because they're obvious. Ex: the external world exists. How do you know the external world exists? Do you have any evidence for it? You might say "oh, we can just see and touch and interact with the external world!" but how do you know you're not a brain in the vat, fed with illusory experiences like that?

Similarly, there's no way you can just "prove" that Mr. Satan and Mr. Briefs don't have the same amount of potential as Whis. It was never mentioned in the manga, so even asking for a proof is silly. But the statement and thought of it is so ridiculous that it's obvious Mr. Briefs can never be as powerful as Whis, not even if he took an infinite number of years to train.

You're doing the same. Calling everything I say ridiculous, so much that it doesn't even need justification. Again, that's no argument. Plus you're reducing it to a extreme case "Mr. Briefs and Whis", to further diminish my point. Telling my views are so silly they don't deserve answer is insulting. I won't repeat myself, if you read my other posts I give reasons to support my claim.

[Chiki]

You're doing the same. Calling everything I say ridiculous, so much that it doesn't even need justification. Again, that's no argument. Plus you're reducing it to a extreme case "Mr. Briefs and Whis", to further diminish my point. Telling my views are so silly they don't deserve answer is insulting. I won't repeat myself, if you read my other posts I give reasons to support my claim.

Um.. yeah, I am doing the same. I'm saying we can know the external world exists because it's obvious. This is called an "a priori" justification: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/apriori/

The justification for Mr. Briefs not having the same potential as Whis is that it's obvious. It's an a priori justification, not an a posteriori one (which would be something like a manga statement). So yes, it is valid reasoning to say that "something is intuitively obvious, therefore it is true."

[LightBing]

You're doing the same. Calling everything I say ridiculous, so much that it doesn't even need justification. Again, that's no argument. Plus you're reducing it to a extreme case "Mr. Briefs and Whis", to further diminish my point. Telling my views are so silly they don't deserve answer is insulting. I won't repeat myself, if you read my other posts I give reasons to support my claim.

Um.. yeah, I am doing the same. I'm saying we can know the external world exists because it's obvious. This is called an "a priori" justification: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/apriori/

The justification for Mr. Briefs not having the same potential as Whis is that it's obvious. It's an a priori justification, not an a posteriori one (which would be something like a manga statement). So yes, it is valid reasoning to say that "something is intuitively obvious, therefore it is true."

That argument is completely arbitrary to the individual and based on intuition. Dragon Ball is an exposition, we need to think to reach meaning, even more because information is always adding up.
It isn't obvious:

1. Kuririn is a human, Mr Briefs is also a human.
2. Kuririn obtained power far surpassing the presumed limits of a regular person.
3. He surpasses creatures(Ginyu Force) that are considered mutants.
4. He never stops growing stronger.

Therefore Mr Briefs can do the same.

And there's examples in the manga I gave before, that further support my view.

Just throwing your "a priori" justification doesn't defend your views or challenges mine. It doesn't provide discussion, there's a reason we don't use the Geocentric model and many other intuitive knowledge...

[Chiki]

You're doing the same. Calling everything I say ridiculous, so much that it doesn't even need justification. Again, that's no argument. Plus you're reducing it to a extreme case "Mr. Briefs and Whis", to further diminish my point. Telling my views are so silly they don't deserve answer is insulting. I won't repeat myself, if you read my other posts I give reasons to support my claim.

Um.. yeah, I am doing the same. I'm saying we can know the external world exists because it's obvious. This is called an "a priori" justification: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/apriori/

The justification for Mr. Briefs not having the same potential as Whis is that it's obvious. It's an a priori justification, not an a posteriori one (which would be something like a manga statement). So yes, it is valid reasoning to say that "something is intuitively obvious, therefore it is true."

That argument is completely arbitrary to the individual and based on intuition. Dragon Ball is an exposition, we need to think to reach meaning, even more because information is always adding up.
It isn't obvious:

1. Kuririn is a human, Mr Briefs is also a human.
2. Kuririn obtained power far surpassing the presumed limits of a regular person.
3. He surpasses creatures(Ginyu Force) that are considered mutants.
4. He never stops growing stronger.

Therefore Mr Briefs can do the same.

And there's examples in the manga I gave before, that further support my view.

Just throwing your "a priori" justification doesn't defend your views or challenges mine. It doesn't provide discussion, there's a reason we don't use the Geocentric model and many other intuitive knowledge...

Or maybe we never knew the true limits of a human in the first place?

[LightBing]

Yes, not of human nor every other race. Evidence suggests there's no limit for how strong one can be, so everyone can always grow in strength. Potential is unlimited, for everyone. The difference is that some are geniuses(ex: Goku and Vegeta), which makes them have faster gains and others, are not, which makes them have different rates of growth. Like humans.

[Chiki]

Yes, not of human nor every other race. Evidence suggests there's no limit for how strong one can be, so everyone can always grow in strength. Potential is unlimited, for everyone. The difference is that some are geniuses(ex: Goku and Vegeta), which makes them have faster gains and others, are not, which makes them have different rates of growth. Like humans.

What's that evidence? I thought we agreed the manga never stated that everyone has limitless potential.