Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Yes, not of human nor every other race. Evidence suggests there's no limit for how strong one can be, so everyone can always grow in strength. Potential is unlimited, for everyone. The difference is that some are geniuses(ex: Goku and Vegeta), which makes them have faster gains and others, are not, which makes them have different rates of growth. Like humans.

What's that evidence? I thought we agreed the manga never stated that everyone has limitless potential.

Did we also agreed the manga stated everyone has limited potential? There's no point continuing discussing with you. You're not acknowledging anything I write, you're now recurring to comebacks - for a lack of a better word - to the latest post I write, not taking into account the whole conversation. This the last of me regarding this topic with you.

[dbzfan7]

I'd say humans have limits. I doubt they can ever keep up with people like Goku and Vegeta, or even try to compare to Piccolo.

[LightBing]

I'd say humans have limits. I doubt they can ever keep up with people like Goku and Vegeta, or even try to compare to Piccolo.

They kept with them until Namek by following the same training. But then Zenkais, SSJ and Namekian assimilation created a huge gap. Until eventually we see the humans give up fighting and don't even wanting to try the recent training methods (Tenshinhan refusing to use RoSaT). My point is that nobody has limits, there's different growth rates, access to better training methods or power-up opportunity. But in the end no one has a limit. It kinda goes against many points made in the series. For example: Goku telling Vegeta that even if he's a low class, with hard work he can surpass the elites.

[Doctor.]

I'd say humans have limits. I doubt they can ever keep up with people like Goku and Vegeta, or even try to compare to Piccolo.

They kept with them until Namek by following the same training. But then Zenkais, SSJ and Namekian assimilation created a huge gap. Until eventually we see the humans give up fighting and don't even wanting to try the recent training methods (Tenshinhan refusing to use RoSaT). My point is that nobody has limits, there's different growth rates, access to better training methods or power-up opportunity. But in the end no one has a limit. It kinda goes against many points made in the series. For example: Goku telling Vegeta that even if he's a low class, with hard work he can surpass the elites.

Let's not exaggerate here. They never kept up. Kuririn always had the same training as Goku until the Super God Water, and he was always inferior.

[LightBing]

I'd say humans have limits. I doubt they can ever keep up with people like Goku and Vegeta, or even try to compare to Piccolo.

They kept with them until Namek by following the same training. But then Zenkais, SSJ and Namekian assimilation created a huge gap. Until eventually we see the humans give up fighting and don't even wanting to try the recent training methods (Tenshinhan refusing to use RoSaT). My point is that nobody has limits, there's different growth rates, access to better training methods or power-up opportunity. But in the end no one has a limit. It kinda goes against many points made in the series. For example: Goku telling Vegeta that even if he's a low class, with hard work he can surpass the elites.

Let's not exaggerate here. They never kept up. Kuririn always had the same training as Goku until the Super God Water, and he was always inferior.

By keeping up I mean not lagging immensely behind. They were always at striking distance, the gaps got wider but Kuririn and the others were always acknowledged by Goku. Until Namek were it got silly, maybe also the Saiyan Saga, but Goku had Kaio's training which benefit him greatly above the others.

[Kamiccolo9]

By keeping up I mean not lagging immensely behind. They were always at striking distance, the gaps got wider but Kuririn and the others were always acknowledged by Goku. Until Namek were it got silly, maybe also the Saiyan Saga, but Goku had Kaio's training which benefit him greatly above the others.

Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai was willing to take on Krillin, Tenshinhan, Kami, and Roshi at the same time, and he was tired from fighting Goku. If they were "acknowledged," then it was incredibly condescending.

[dbzfan7]

I'd say humans have limits. I doubt they can ever keep up with people like Goku and Vegeta, or even try to compare to Piccolo.

They kept with them until Namek by following the same training. But then Zenkais, SSJ and Namekian assimilation created a huge gap. Until eventually we see the humans give up fighting and don't even wanting to try the recent training methods (Tenshinhan refusing to use RoSaT). My point is that nobody has limits, there's different growth rates, access to better training methods or power-up opportunity. But in the end no one has a limit. It kinda goes against many points made in the series. For example: Goku telling Vegeta that even if he's a low class, with hard work he can surpass the elites.

They literally can not catch up at any time if the tried. They don't have the potential of the saiyans. They don't have transformations or assimilation like saiyans and nameks. They have no happy fun time circle that beats out even potara. They don't get zenkai's. Humans do not have unlimited potential. Only saiyans it seems have unlimited potential cause every now and then there's new ways for them to constantly transform and reach new levels. Humans don't have anything like that.

By keeping up I mean not lagging immensely behind. They were always at striking distance, the gaps got wider but Kuririn and the others were always acknowledged by Goku. Until Namek were it got silly, maybe also the Saiyan Saga, but Goku had Kaio's training which benefit him greatly above the others.

Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai was willing to take on Krillin, Tenshinhan, Kami, and Roshi at the same time, and he was tired from fighting Goku. If they were "acknowledged," then it was incredibly condescending.

Also this. By the 23rd budokai I'd say the humans were simply outmatched. They thankfully got one last good showing, but that's about it. They powered up for the saiyan saga, but were still so behind by that time they couldn't do much beyond the Saibamen. After that they were done. They could rosat train or train with Whis, and they'll still never be anything special again unfortunately.

[irreality]

Let's not exaggerate here. They never kept up. Kuririn always had the same training as Goku until the Super God Water, and he was always inferior.

I think humans in general start from a lower baseline and have much slower gains. That doesn't mean they don't have potential, though. I think if Krillin learnt the Kaioken he would have no trouble being very strong with that multiplier. But because they lack easy transformations and boosts, their gains will be slower. That is not the same as potential, though.

Goku and Krillin were never that far apart in DB, and Goku had lots of amazing advantages Krillin never had at the same time. Krillin only had the same training at the same time as Goku during the first saga, and even then, Goku started out stronger (and had previous Turtle school training) and could still go Oozaru at the time. Krillin wasn't much weaker, even with that. After that, Goku had Karin training Krillin didn't get until later, then he had Popo/Kami training Krillin didn't get until the Saiyan saga (and Krillin was a lot stronger after that than Goku was with Popo/Kami Training, even if it was years earlier).

And after that, he never got Kaio training (and even those who trained with Kaio were never taught the Kaioken or Spirit Bomb, I think?), couldn't get Zenkais or transformations. Krillin consistently showed he could make impressive gains, even as much as an untransformed Saiyan, provided a little more time and the same opportunities. And there is no reason he can't go beyond that, provided motivation and time (which he lost during the Buu saga, with a kid and wife). It will always be way, way, slower than a Saiyan, to the point it would seem glacial, but that doesn't mean he can't keep getting stronger, and wasn't in some instances stronger than Goku with equivalent training, even if a few years later.

That said, to bring it back to Super: God Ki is something "different" than just strength, I think, even if not well explained. Unless there is some "Human God" transformation, I don't think they can compete just from the standpoint that they can't sense the ki and it operates on a different wavelength, almost. It is not something you "train into", even for Saiyans.

[LightBing]

By keeping up I mean not lagging immensely behind. They were always at striking distance, the gaps got wider but Kuririn and the others were always acknowledged by Goku. Until Namek were it got silly, maybe also the Saiyan Saga, but Goku had Kaio's training which benefit him greatly above the others.

Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai was willing to take on Krillin, Tenshinhan, Kami, and Roshi at the same time, and he was tired from fighting Goku. If they were "acknowledged," then it was incredibly condescending.

He said a many things/thought:

Chapter: 173, P14.6-8
Goku: “Kuririn! You were really amazing! You’ve gotten super-duper better! I’m surprised!”
Kuririn: “Hehe…but I couldn’t help losing…”
Kame-sennin: “Kuririn, you’ve become a magnificent martial artist…”
Piccolo: “It seems that I won’t be able to take over the world so easily…”

This contradicts his later statement. The author didn't want the fight to have such an anti-climatic conclusion. Plus we know the relative gaps later on with the introduction of power levels and can make an assessment of the possible outcome.

But this isn't that important for my main point. There's no limits, even if people believe the humans didn't properly keep up, there's no denying a ceiling was never reached. If Tenshinhan had trained for a year with Kuririn in the RoSaT, are you guys in agreement with that they would power up immensely? They would still be useless for the SSJ characters, but they would be close to their base forms.

[Bullza]

So surely there must be some explanation as to why Super Saiyan God Goku fired a Kamehameha that hit the planet and yet it did not explode.

He seemed a little more evenly matched against Beerus in God form than he did in the movie from what I saw (when the ad's went interrupting it). In the movie he didn't really do anything until after he went out of God form which was a bit odd, half the time he fought without it.

It looks like he might not be going back to base form then Super Saiyan in the series but we'll see.

[Raizel]

So surely there must be some explanation as to why Super Saiyan God Goku fired a Kamehameha that hit the planet and yet it did not explode.

Earth have a plot armor.

[Saiyan007]

So surely there must be some explanation as to why Super Saiyan God Goku fired a Kamehameha that hit the planet and yet it did not explode.

He seemed a little more evenly matched against Beerus in God form than he did in the movie from what I saw (when the ad's went interrupting it). In the movie he didn't really do anything until after he went out of God form which was a bit odd, half the time he fought without it.

It looks like he might not be going back to base form then Super Saiyan in the series but we'll see.

C'mon man it's ki control this is basic DB knowledge

Also this tweet from Herms

Elder Kaioshin is concerned about the fight because "you know what will happen to the universe if Beerus fights seriously!"

Universal Hype!!!!!!

[Bullza]

Why would he fire a Kamehameha weak enough to not destroy the Earth at Beerus the guy he's supposed to defeat?

When he fought Cell they were all shitting themselves over Goku's Kamehameha before he fired it upwards through Cell's face.

[Doctor.]

Why would he fire a Kamehameha weak enough to not destroy the Earth at Beerus the guy he's supposed to defeat?

When he fought Cell they were all shitting themselves over Goku's Kamehameha before he fired it upwards through Cell's face.

This isn't the first time this happens. It has happened every single fight ever since the Freeza arc.

[Bullza]

It never happened in either of the two new movies. No Kamehameha or any major attack hit the Earth from what I can recall.

[Saiyan007]

Seriously..........

attack potency and ki control are things in Dragon Ball they happen all throughout the series

[Bullza]

With physical attacks and mainly small Ki attacks.

That's why Vegeta purposefully aimed the Final Flash away from the Earth. Why Goku fired his Kamehameha upwards. Why Piccolo warned Gotenks about destroying the Earth when he was firing a volley downwards at Buu.

Big attacks like that don't usually hit the ground, that was sorta the point.

[Doctor.]

With physical attacks and mainly small Ki attacks.

That's why Vegeta purposefully aimed the Final Flash away from the Earth. Why Goku fired his Kamehameha upwards. Why Piccolo warned Gotenks about destroying the Earth when he was firing a volley downwards at Buu.

Big attacks like that don't usually hit the ground, that was sorta the point.

They hit the ground, but they're only dangerous because they hit the ground at a 90 degree angle, or close to it. We have countless examples of Ki blasts making big explosions on the surface of the planet, such as Recoome's blast on Namek, Vegeta's sacrifice and so on and so forth. If we use Toei filler, then that number rises even more. This isn't anything new, I don't know why you're paying special attention to this.

[Blackstripe]

Is there still someone claiming that Gokuu couldn't blow up a planet cause he never did it?

I'm going to try and be respectful here when I say that this person is wrong. Just because a character never does something doesn't mean they can't when Every. Single. Scrap. of evidence suggests that they can in fact do so. Gokuu has reflected planet destroying blasts with his own, so that necessarily must mean his blast packs at least that much power behind it.

They can focus and concentrate their ki to the point where it doesn't blow everything up, otherwise they wouldn't be able to fight at all. As Freeza in Revival of F showed, however, he can quite casually push down on a planet (in an exhausted 4th form) and destroy it. Gokuu was taking blows from his much, much stronger Golden form, and was far above the Freeza that destroyed Earth, and yet he couldn't do that if he wanted to?

I'm sorry, but that is patently absurd.

[Saiyan007]

It never happened in either of the two new movies. No Kamehameha or any major attack hit the Earth from what I can recall.

Like SSGSS Goku throws a KHH twice in Fukkatsu No F at earth and didn't even destroy cliffs