Thoughts on Cyborg Freeza

[soduh2]

Oftentimes fans tend to hate the fact that Freeza, after being rebuilt, decided to immediately go to Earth. They argue that he should have bided his time before getting revenge. However, I'm wondering whether or not Freeza would have been respected by his underlings and slaves with the physical reminders of his defeat (despite the fact that he's stronger now). If Freeza did lose respect as a result of his defeat by Goku, then he would need to exact revenge immediately.

What do you think? Should Freeza have waited before going to Earth, or did he have no choice?

[ekrolo2]

Oftentimes fans tend to hate the fact that Freeza, after being rebuilt, decided to immediately go to Earth. They argue that he should have bided his time before getting revenge. However, I'm wondering whether or not Freeza would have been respected by his underlings and slaves with the physical reminders of his defeat (despite the fact that he's stronger now). If Freeza did lose respect as a result of his defeat by Goku, then he would need to exact revenge immediately.

What do you think? Should Freeza have waited before going to Earth, or did he have no choice?

Logically speaking yes, Freeza should have waited. However, he was still in arrogant dumbass mode so I never really had a problem with him just going to Earth as soon as possible. Plus it served as a good way to setup the Android arc by showing Trunks, who completely annihilates the previous bad guy is completely outclassed himself by the next one. Its Resurrection F where he should've wised up a lot.

[rereboy]

Oftentimes fans tend to hate the fact that Freeza, after being rebuilt, decided to immediately go to Earth. They argue that he should have bided his time before getting revenge. However, I'm wondering whether or not Freeza would have been respected by his underlings and slaves with the physical reminders of his defeat (despite the fact that he's stronger now). If Freeza did lose respect as a result of his defeat by Goku, then he would need to exact revenge immediately.

What do you think? Should Freeza have waited before going to Earth, or did he have no choice?

Freeza never had the respect of his underlings. He ruled and conquered by fear, not respect. If any of them were able to defeat Freeza and assume his place, or something similar, prior to the events on Namek, that's what would have happened. Therefore, Freeza having lost on Namek was irrelevant... if any of his underlings got smart with him and needed a reminder of his power, Freeza would do it easily and his rule of fear would be preserved.

[manwolf]

The first time that Freeza are weakened King Cold can prevent an attack on Freeza but the second time he isn't alive so i conclude that a majority of soldiers aren't strong or brave to rule the empire and needs so strong evil guy to rule the empire and Freeza are the strongest evil guy.

In Rof his underlings try to convince Freeza to not going to Earth so no the respect or the fear of his underlings would not be lost not going to the earth.

The only beings that can affect a possible alive Freeza are Buu in his frenzy, Beerus with his decision to destroy Freeza or in non cannon Broly.

[Deathbringer]

Freeza never had the respect of his underlings. He ruled and conquered by fear, not respect. If any of them were able to defeat Freeza and assume his place, or something similar, prior to the events on Namek, that's what would have happened. Therefore, Freeza having lost on Namek was irrelevant... if any of his underlings got smart with him and needed a reminder of his power, Freeza would do it easily and his rule of fear would be preserved.

If that's the case then why did Sorbet and Tagoma have so much respect for him that they actually had him brought back to life?

[rereboy]

Freeza never had the respect of his underlings. He ruled and conquered by fear, not respect. If any of them were able to defeat Freeza and assume his place, or something similar, prior to the events on Namek, that's what would have happened. Therefore, Freeza having lost on Namek was irrelevant... if any of his underlings got smart with him and needed a reminder of his power, Freeza would do it easily and his rule of fear would be preserved.

If that's the case then why did Sorbet and Tagoma have so much respect for him that they actually had him brought back to life?

They didn't. One of them even specifically wonders if it's a good idea to bring him back because Freeza was such a tyrant to his own forces. But they had no choice because, as it was made clear, they were in trouble and kept losing planets as their forces were unable to stop the rebellions. They needed Freeza back because he was tremendously powerful and could squash those rebellions in an instant, making them an example for any who wanted to rebel. In short, bringing back his rule of fear.

[Blackstripe]

Besides, Freeza had so little of his organic body left that he may not have been able to make the tremendous gains he did post-resurrection.

[rereboy]

Besides, Freeza had so little of his organic body left that he may not have been able to make the tremendous gains he did post-resurrection.

That's pure speculation, though. Even the androids have been stated to be able to get stronger by Toriyama and they don't have a natural Ki. Cyborg Freeza actually had a natural Ki.

Besides, even if Freeza's rate of improvement was impaired by the fact that he had less organic body, he wouldn't need anything close to what he achieved in ROF. If he, for example, only managed to improve 25% of what he could improve otherwise in a certain length of time, that just means that instead of 4 months, Freeza would have to train for 16 months to get to where he was in ROF.

[Doctor.]

That's pure speculation, though. Even the androids have been stated to be able to get stronger by Toriyama and they don't have a natural Ki. Cyborg Freeza actually had a natural Ki.

Besides, even if Freeza's rate of improvement was impaired by the fact that he had less organic body, he wouldn't need anything close to what he achieved in ROF. If he, for example, only managed to improve 25% of what he could improve otherwise in a certain length of time, that just means that instead of 4 months, Freeza would have to train for 16 months to get to where he was in ROF.

Sure, but it doesn't mean that just because the androids can get stronger, that Freeza can get stronger. The mechanical parts that make up Freeza's body may not be as advanced as 17's and 18's and, as such, it may limit Freeza's growth with training.

[rereboy]

Sure, but it doesn't mean that just because the androids can get stronger, that Freeza can get stronger. The mechanical parts that make up Freeza's body may not be as advanced as 17's and 18's and, as such, it may limit Freeza's growth with training.

It doesn't give us a certainty but it does imply it. There is no reason to think that anyone who still had a natural Ki couldn't get stronger, which Freeza still had and was even greater than on Namek, and even the only other examples of cyborgs in the series, who no longer even have a natural Ki, are stated to, nonetheless, still be able to get stronger. It's rather illogical, presented with this, to assume that Freeza couldn't get stronger.

[Doctor.]

It doesn't give us a certainty but it does imply it. There is no reason to think that anyone who still had a natural Ki couldn't get stronger, which Freeza still had and was even greater than on Namek, and even the only other examples of cyborgs in the series, who no longer even have a natural Ki, are stated to, nonetheless, still be able to get stronger. It's rather illogical, presented with this, to assume that Freeza couldn't get stronger.

Freeza says he powered-up a lot, but did he really? Gohan says Freeza can get a lot stronger when Mecha Freeza arrives, implying he's in some kind of suppressed state. Later on, Trunks goes on to tell Freeza to power-up and go at him at full power, and Freeza is still beaten quite easily. The same Trunks could barely touch Goku, who probably didn't train that much aside from learning Instant Transmission. I think it's fair to say there's an argument for both sides here.

[rereboy]

Freeza says he powered-up a lot, but did he really? Gohan says Freeza can get a lot stronger when Mecha Freeza arrives, implying he's in some kind of suppressed state. Later on, Trunks goes on to tell Freeza to power-up and go at him at full power, and Freeza is still beaten quite easily. The same Trunks could barely touch Goku, who probably didn't train that much aside from learning Instant Transmission. I think it's fair to say there's an argument for both sides here.

Not really. One argument simply assumes that Freeza doesn't know what he's talking about when he talks about his own power, while the other simply argues that Freeza, like we saw on Namek, while in his true form, can change the level of his power and that there's no reason for him to be at his maximum when Gohan comments on it since he wasn't fighting, nor had he yet land. The first one doesn't seem at all logical, faced with the second.

Also, Goku himself states that he only had such a easy time with Trunks because his heart isn't truly in it, so the manga already explains the ease that Goku had with his attacks.

[FoolsGil]

First off, Freeza ruled by fear, not respect, so there is no worry about the solders suddenly thinking of rebelling or providing backtalk or whatever you think would happen if they decided Freeza wasn't worth following.

Second, of course Freeza should not have went to Earth immediately. He also should have listened to his father about nuking the planet from orbit, but Freeza's hubris is his greatest weakness.

[Blackstripe]

Not really. One argument simply assumes that Freeza doesn't know what he's talking about when he talks about his own power, while the other simply argues that Freeza, like we saw on Namek, while in his true form, can change the level of his power and that there's no reason for him to be at his maximum when Gohan comments on it since he wasn't fighting, nor had he yet land. The first one doesn't seem at all logical, faced with the second.

Also, Goku himself states that he only had such a easy time with Trunks because his heart isn't truly in it, so the manga already explains the ease that Goku had with his attacks.

The Cyborgs are still mostly organic, though. 18 can have a baby, after all.

Freeza seems far more...clunky. Far less competently constructed, to the point that TFS actually made it a running joke. His power might have increased in literal terms, but I think his mechanical parts were in fact the bulk of his overall power at that point. I mean...just look at what was left of him after Namek.

His natural potential comes from him being a mutant prodigy, from his incredibly powerful body. If you remove most of that body, it would logically remove most of his potential.

What does this mean? Well, you say he can reach the same power as in RoF by training 16 months...but that wasn't how his training worked. That training drew out all of his latent potential. If Freeza did the same training, it would last for 4 months just like in RoF, but yield far less impressive results, and no Golden Form. Freeza was at his natural limit in RoF, and that natural limit would've been much lower with those clunky mechanical parts.

Mind you, he would still be too much for Trunks or Gokuu if he trained for 4 months before coming to Earth. Even with only a small fraction of his RoF gains, he would have utterly obliterated them.

[rereboy]

The Cyborgs are still mostly organic, though. 18 can have a baby, after all.

Yet, their power comes from their artificial parts and is different to such a degree that the others don't even register it as Ki. But they can still get stronger by training.

but I think his mechanical parts were in fact the bulk of his overall power at that point.

If they were, they wouldn't be able to sense it. They sensed it because it's natural Ki.

His natural potential comes from him being a mutant prodigy, from his incredibly powerful body. If you remove most of that body, it would logically remove most of his potential.

Not really. 4 year old Gohan had a tiny body with tiny muscles and was more powerful than his adult father, who was huge in comparison. Nothing implies that Future Gohan lost Ki when he lost his arm or that it prevented him from improving. There's nothing in the series telling that just because Freeza lost body parts his Ki and his training would be permanently affected. And even if it did, it doesn't make sense to believe that he wouldn't be able to improve at all since he still had natural Ki, and, considering what he achieved in 4 months, even if he had much more difficulty training, 2 or 3 years of training would be more than enough to surpass Goku, maybe even enough to match what he would achieve with 4 months and his intact body.

[Blackstripe]

Not really. 4 year old Gohan had a tiny body with tiny muscles and was more powerful than his adult father, who was huge in comparison. Nothing implies that Future Gohan lost Ki when he lost his arm or that it prevented him from improving. There's nothing in the series telling that just because Freeza lost body parts his Ki and his training would be permanently affected. And even if it did, it doesn't make sense to believe that he wouldn't be able to improve at all since he still had natural Ki, and, considering what he achieved in 4 months, even if he had much more difficulty training, 2 or 3 years of training would be more than enough to surpass Goku, maybe even enough to match what he would achieve with 4 months and his intact body.

Losing an arm isn't the same as losing over 65% of your body.

And I never said he couldn't get any stronger. I even said that he could still surpass Goku and Trunks with training. I just don't believe he could ever reach RoF levels with that busted up body. Also, we don't even know how much stronger the Cyborgs could really get through training. For all we know, they're just increasing their natural human ki. Considering it would only be about 5, they've got plenty of room to grow.

[rereboy]

Losing an arm isn't the same as losing over 65% of your body.

Why not? It's just a matter of percentage really. An arm might not be 60% of your body, but it might be 15%.

And I never said he couldn't get any stronger. I even said that he could still surpass Goku and Trunks with training. I just don't believe he could ever reach RoF levels with that busted up body. Also, we don't even know how much stronger the Cyborgs could really get through training. For all we know, they're just increasing their natural human ki. Considering it would only be about 5, they've got plenty of room to grow.

I don't see why not. Freeza got there with just 4 months. If his wounds impaired him, he should take longer to improve but I don't see why it would be impossible to match it. Like I said, even if it was 4 times harder for him to improve, he would still only need 16 months. Even if it was 10 times harder for him to improve, it would only take him 40 months (aka little over 3 years).

[Blackstripe]

Why not? It's just a matter of percentage really. An arm might not be 60% of your body, but it might be 15%.

If you lose a leg, you can still compete in a triathlon with a cybernetic one, and people will still credit you for your victory, cause it is mostly still you doing it. If you lose your entire lower torso, an arm, and half your face (and are somehow still alive), and have it all replaced by cybernetics, it's now then doing the vast majority of the work and people will call you out on it.

Freeza is supposed to be a fighting prodigy, but most of his fighting parts are now gone, as is part of his brain. Ki is energy generated by the body. Freeza has much less of a body now. His cybernetic parts may give his ki a conduit to flow through again, but they're just metal parts. He wouldn't be able to improve them through training.

I don't see why not. Freeza got there with just 4 months. If his wounds impaired him, he should take longer to improve but I don't see why it would be impossible to match it. Like I said, even if it was 4 times harder for him to improve, he would still only need 16 months. Even if it was 10 times harder for him to improve, it would only take him 40 months (aka little over 3 years).

I think this comes down how we view his training. I'm following his wording in Revival of F to the letter: he did a training regimen designed to draw out ALL of his potential. He could go no further than this, save for mastering his Golden Form to eliminate stamina issues.

With his mutant prodigy body damaged, that potential should be gone with it. He could improve well beyond Trunks saga fighters, so there's no excuse for him not trying, but you're basically trying to say that he could train his metal parts and make them stronger. Does that make any sense?

From everything we see of training in Dragon Ball, training your ki is the same as training your body. It's pushing yourself beyond your body's previous limits. He no longer has that much of a body to push. It isn't a matter of time, it's a matter of him no longer having the parts to improve.

[rereboy]

If you lose a leg, you can still compete in a triathlon with a cybernetic one, and people will still credit you for your victory, cause it is mostly still you doing it. If you lose your entire lower torso, an arm, and half your face (and are somehow still alive), and have it all replaced by cybernetics, it's now then doing the vast majority of the work and people will call you out on it.

Freeza is supposed to be a fighting prodigy, but most of his fighting parts are now gone, as is part of his brain. Ki is energy generated by the body. Freeza has much less of a body now. His cybernetic parts may give his ki a conduit to flow through again, but they're just metal parts. He wouldn't be able to improve them through training.

Ki is in great part spiritual energy that is given expression with and through the body. It seems you haven't realized that.

Also, real life examples like that don't really work well in Dragon Ball because there's no Ki in real life, it's better to stay in the franchise. Vegetto, for example, got reduced to a tiny piece of chocolate, which didn't even have limbs and yet his Ki was as big as ever and he still beat up Buu. If this was in real life, Vegetto would be done, but since it's Dragon Ball, and Vegetto's Ki was so enormous, the transformation of his body meant very little.

I think this comes down how we view his training. I'm following his wording in Revival of F to the letter: he did a training regimen designed to draw out ALL of his potential. He could go no further than this, save for mastering his Golden Form to eliminate stamina issues.

With his mutant prodigy body damaged, that potential should be gone with it. He could improve well beyond Trunks saga fighters, so there's no excuse for him not trying, but you're basically trying to say that he could train his metal parts and make them stronger. Does that make any sense?

From everything we see of training in Dragon Ball, training your ki is the same as training your body. It's pushing yourself beyond your body's previous limits. He no longer has that much of a body to push. It isn't a matter of time, it's a matter of him no longer having the parts to improve.

I don't remember anything about him stating that he would reach his top possible max with his transformation/training.

[Blackstripe]

Ki is in great part spiritual energy that is given expression with and through the body. It seems you haven't realized that.

Also, real life examples like that don't really work well in Dragon Ball because there's no Ki in real life, it's better to stay in the franchise. Vegetto, for example, got reduced to a tiny piece of chocolate, which didn't even have limbs and yet his Ki was as big as ever and he still beat up Buu. If this was in real life, Vegetto would be done, but since it's Dragon Ball, and Vegetto's Ki was so enormous, the transformation of his body meant very little.

And it is brought out by training your body, and pushing it beyond it's limits.

The coffee candy scene was done through magic, and we don't know if his ki dropped or not. All we know is that Vegetto was so absurdly strong, that even a small fraction of his power would've still been enough to troll Buu. Evidence supports one's power normally dropping when they're turned into something: you didn't see Dabura continue to fight/resist after being turned into a cookie, right?

Either his power dropped but was still high enough for him to be able to move, or, possibly more likely, the Potara fusion's magic interfered with Buu's, hence the odd result with Vegetto which was different from anyone else that was turned into food.

I don't remember anything about him stating that he would reach his top possible max with his transformation/training.

Akira Toriyama said that he would never be any match for Beerus, no matter what he did. Coupled with him saying he was going to draw out all of his potential (or something along those lines), it seems impossible for him to go any higher. He was already reasonably close to the God of Destruction's power, though he would still lose badly if Beerus went 100% against him. There's nowhere else for him to really go between those two points.