Mr. Toriyama return to his roots

[LuckyCat]

I missed my Super Saiyan fries this go around...

Those were a thing? Wow, that sounds great. Now I'm trying to imagine what kind of blue spikey food they could have gone for in RoF.

[Chuquita]

Some kind of blue raspberry Popsicle. :3 That would've been fun (imo).

[Faustus]

EXBadguy, understood.

But, as a small point of contention, I don't think it's particularly that standards for storytelling in general have shifted (to any substantial degree) since the time of Dragon Ball's first publication and it needs to adjust with the times, so much as it is that you've been reading fiction to which different, more rigorous, standards apply for things like continuity (e.g. other shonen stuff, mature literature) since your first experiences with the series.

[ekrolo2]

Still it wouldn't kill Dragon Ball to try going a bit further into stuff. Say having Earth get destroyed at the end of Super F, causing a character arc for Goku where he can't put his own thrill seeking ahead of saving the planet. I mean Toriyama says he wants to emphasize his flaws but only to a very superficial level. I'll take his statements seriously once either Goku comes to the realization he's an asshole & terrible dad or one of his kids and/or Chi-Chi calls him out on it in-universe.

There are other characters who could get similar treatments like Vegeta trying to atone for his past by spending what time he has left to basically clear the mud still sticking to his name in Enma's book. You could even do an arc for Goten where he feels inadequate about how he can never be as smart as his big brother or can never dedicate to fighting like his dad and keeps getting lumped with Trunks all the time.

All this is potentially interesting character stuff to explore but Toriyama won't because I guess the target demographic can't take anything with a little more brains to it.

[Cipher]

Am I the only one who doesn't want Dragon Ball to be smarter? I want it to be charming.

Which, yes, can sometimes come from its attempts at more complex storytelling, and I absolutely enjoy mining its subtle character arcs and appreciate that they, along with a realistic portrayal of the passage of time, are part of the series. But I have a healthy diet of literary, even experimental, fiction outside Dragon Ball. Its pleasures are wholly different to me. In fact, one of the reasons I find myself not enjoying other anime, including light shonen series like One Piece, is that they dishonestly and half-assedly attempt headier thematic content (which can be wonderful for younger audiences as a gateway into the power of fiction, as long as they move beyond it, but I don't think that applies to most viewers/readers here).

[ekrolo2]

Dragon Balls been charming for a long time, and it only got a smidge smarter at some points in GT. Having at least one arc digging into stuff with a little more brains for once wouldn't derail the entire franchise forever.

[Faustus]

Cipher: Right on the mark.

Though I don't think One Piece pushes its themes "half-assedly" so much as hamfistedly, to the point of castrating or at least severely diminishing any potential for the kind of genuine complexity and nuance to which it seems to aspire a lot of the time (I'm not sure I can say unambiguously that it does).

In addition to your point, though, what I love all the more about Dragon Ball is that it's not only simple, but often deceptively so. That it's so simple and void of pretence and explicit theme-pushing that at times it nearly passes for a deliberate trick of subtlety and economy on Toriyama's part -- almost as though it's got tantalizingly hidden depths just begging to be plumbed -- rather than the silly piece of nonsense that it really is. Which, I've found, can -- without detracting from the simple childish pleasure of the experience -- make for and sustain delightfully intricate conversation surrounding it.

[Cipher]

Dragon Balls been charming for a long time, and it only got a smidge smarter at some points in GT. Having at least one arc digging into stuff with a little more brains for once wouldn't derail the entire franchise forever.

No, and one of the things I love about GT is that it -- accidentally? -- makes some thematic sense of the series, even if it's far removed from Toriyama's vision. But while Dragon Ball can do smarter arcs, I don't think it's a direction the series needs to move or stay in.

Also, agreed with Faustus.

[Doctor.]

Dragon Balls been charming for a long time, and it only got a smidge smarter at some points in GT. Having at least one arc digging into stuff with a little more brains for once wouldn't derail the entire franchise forever.

Last time Toriyama tried that, we ended up with the mess that is the Cell arc.

[EXBadguy]

Dragon Balls been charming for a long time, and it only got a smidge smarter at some points in GT. Having at least one arc digging into stuff with a little more brains for once wouldn't derail the entire franchise forever.

Last time Toriyama tried that, we ended up with the mess that is the Cell arc.

You might as well call the first two Z sagas a mess too, since the backstories did offer complexity.

Man, thatdbzguy would've loved this conversation. Reminds me of him.

[ekrolo2]

Dragon Balls been charming for a long time, and it only got a smidge smarter at some points in GT. Having at least one arc digging into stuff with a little more brains for once wouldn't derail the entire franchise forever.

Last time Toriyama tried that, we ended up with the mess that is the Cell arc.

You might as well call the first two Z sagas a mess too, since the backstories did offer complexity.

Man, thatdbzguy would've loved this conversation. Reminds me of him.

Except those offered it and it for the most part worked. The Cell Saga almost exclusively exists and keeps on going because of either plot contrivances or the characters being complete idiots. Their idea of defeating the Androids is to train a whole lot instead of doing the smart thing and using Shenron to find Gero and annihilate him outright. It really shows you these guys are only better than the "villains" they fight because their morality is only somewhat above amoral prick level.

Now this isn't really bad, it could be an interesting thing to explore with the characters. But Toriyama isn't interested in that, not really. He says he's annoyed the anime portrays Goku as less of a dick than he really is but I don't see Toriyama exactly digging into that aspect too deep either. I'm not saying make all of Dragon Ball some grim dark 90s comic with loads of blood, tits, swearing and guns but having the character be a little more self aware of themselves wouldn't be such a bad thing. Especially since their personalities have been locked in for years now.

[Doctor.]

You might as well call the first two Z sagas a mess too, since the backstories did offer complexity.

Man, thatdbzguy would've loved this conversation. Reminds me of him.

I like the Cell arc. I think it, however, is a severe step down from the three arcs that came before it. It's fun, it's enjoyable, it's entertaining, but it's the one with the most plot holes BY FAR and extremely sloppily written. It's good, sure, but it's not amazing and really should not be used as something to strive towards especially when it's a one-time thing in the entire series, more like Toriyama's experiment that he didn't enjoy writing.

[EXBadguy]

I like the Cell arc. I think it, however, is a severe step down from the three arcs that came before it. It's fun, it's enjoyable, it's entertaining, but it's the one with the most plot holes BY FAR and extremely sloppily written. It's good, sure, but it's not amazing and really should not be used as something to strive towards especially when it's a one-time thing in the entire series, more like Toriyama's experiment that he didn't enjoy writing.

We can agree to disagree. I'd say the same thing about the Buu saga, but instead that I don't think it's good at all and has way more plot holes and inconsistencies than any other saga, including some of GT.

Their idea of defeating the Androids is to train a whole lot instead of doing the smart thing and using Shenron to find Gero and annihilate him outright.

Isn't that a good thing, though? Cuz it began the development of the sense of loss, leading to Goku's declining the warriors wish. Now, I give the Shadow Dragon Saga some credit for expanding that theme, cuz death is a part of life. You can't just be relying on the dragonballs forever. Plus, it gets annoying too.

[ekrolo2]

Their idea of defeating the Androids is to train a whole lot instead of doing the smart thing and using Shenron to find Gero and annihilate him outright.

Isn't that a good thing, though? Cuz it began the development of the sense of loss, leading to Goku's declining the warriors wish. Now, I give the Shadow Dragon Saga some credit for expanding that theme, cuz death is a part of life. You can't just be relying on the dragonballs forever. Plus, it gets annoying too.

It is the good thing to do, but instead Goku just tells everyone he really wants to fight and everyone goes along with it. Even the human characters who basically know they're the most likely to get boned even with training. It shows a really big problem with the characters that really becomes more glaring. Everyone is completely un self aware of anything remotely resembling the concept of responsibility and consequences for your action/inaction.

The only times they wise up in the Cell Saga specifically is when Trunks rightfully blasts Vegeta away and goes to take out Cell and when Piccolo chews Goku out over his insane plan to beat Cell. But even these are fleeting any no one after these scenes holds a grudge or remembers it happened. They just beat the villain and yuck it up until the next guy almost kills them again. Resurrection F is really the point where they decided to be smarter but nope, we can't even have Goku and company say "We can't leave the Dragon Balls out there for anyone to take and use. We need to safeguard them now or else something worse might happen."

[LuckyCat]

It is the good thing to do, but instead Goku just tells everyone he really wants to fight and everyone goes along with it. Even the human characters who basically know they're the most likely to get boned even with training.

I think that whole scene is meant to be played for humor, though. There are always like a million ways the heroes can avoid the big bad (Don't challenge Freeza, Don't let Cell become perfect, Don't let Buu revive, Don't anger Beerus) but Goku and Vegeta, who pretty much lead the show, always take the route of the warrior. I don't think it's fair to call Android saga "a mess" because the heroes enjoy fighting over a simpler solution.

[EXBadguy]

It is the good thing to do, but instead Goku just tells everyone he really wants to fight and everyone goes along with it. Even the human characters who basically know they're the most likely to get boned even with training. It shows a really big problem with the characters that really becomes more glaring. Everyone is completely un self aware of anything remotely resembling the concept of responsibility and consequences for your action/inaction.

I agree that summoning Shenron would've been a great idea, but I don't think Goku turning down that decision wasn't a bad one, self-sufficiency is key. And besides, it was only three characters who were blown out of the water(the humans), despite them getting out and doing something, while in the Buu saga and most of GT, it's always either Goku or the Saiyans getting spotlight and everyone gets the ax.

The only times they wise up in the Cell Saga specifically is when Trunks rightfully blasts Vegeta away and goes to take out Cell and when Piccolo chews Goku out over his insane plan to beat Cell. But even these are fleeting any no one after these scenes holds a grudge or remembers it happened. They just beat the villain and yuck it up until the next guy almost kills them again. Resurrection F is really the point where they decided to be smarter but nope, we can't even have Goku and company say "We can't leave the Dragon Balls out there for anyone to take and use. We need to safeguard them now or else something worse might happen."

I'd say the only few dumb moments were Krillin refusing to press the button(though it was a good character trait of him) and Gohan's "I don't care who's wrong or right. I don't really wanna fiiiight no moooore" moment, and Gohan refusing to finish Cell, despite me liking the dark vibe of it. Other than that, I don't think there were any more dumb decisions.

And as for you second point about them just beating the villain, that's why I keep saying the series should've ended at either Freeza or Cell, cuz it makes sense, starting from a unusual race coming to earth to remind the protagonist that he's part of the race, to beating the villain who enslaved the race, and to kill the last two main threats who remain hidden on Earth(i.e. Dr Gero and Cell) who had history with the protagonist.

[Cipher]

I also think that's exactly what Toriyama means about Goku being a bit of a dick (though the anime nails that scene, and by and large I think it's the movies that are more off the mark). It's just something that, in typical -- glorious -- Dragon Ball fashion, doesn't need to be explored or course-corrected. It's just part of the character and the world.

It is development, though, in that Goku's progression into a hyper-bored, occasionally dangerous obsessive is an element that steadily progresses in the latter half of the series, even as he continues to better those around him. And there's one of those "deceptively simple" elements. Not all development needs to be moralizing.

[fadeddreams5]

Something doesn't need to be overly complex, profound, or pretentious to invoke the sense of tension fans crave. I feel the Piccolo Jr-Frieza sagas were a perfect balance of this, light-heartedness, and simplicity. After minion #6343 was killed by Frieza, did we have an episode offering a flashback of how he joined Frieza's army and the family he had to leave behind? NO! Nobody cares. lol. Did Toriyama delve too deeply into the origins of the saiyans, their emotions during their last days, or Frieza's enslavement of various races? No, but we learned that Frieza does enslave innocent people and murder anyone who opposes him, regardless of age or gender. He's evil and ruthless. That's easy enough to get. But besides that, he's also much stronger than anyone else, which makes his presence intimidating.

These sagas set a tone that emphasized on the action and dire situations over gags and everyday occurrences. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to watch Pilaf sap away screen time; I don't want to see episode after episode of characters taking trips, working, or celebrating parties; I don't want garsh darn funny villains who just want some puddinnnn' and play janken with pigs for 30 minutes; and I don't want transformations that make the characters cuter, or are just palette swaps of previously established ones.

[ekrolo2]

I also think that's exactly what Toriyama means about Goku being a bit of a dick (though the anime nails that scene, and by and large I think it's the movies that are more off the mark). It's just something that, in typical -- glorious -- Dragon Ball fashion, doesn't need to be explored or course-corrected. It's just part of the character and the world.

It is development, though, in that Goku's progression into a hyper-bored, occasionally dangerous obsessive is an element that steadily progresses in the latter half of the series, even as he continues to better those around him. And there's one of those "deceptively simple" elements. Not all development needs to be moralizing.

If you're not going to explore it, don't bring it up in the first place is what I say on the matter. Once again, if everyone just decided fighting was the better option against the Androids and there's no scene in-universe pointing out how f*cking stupid of an idea that is through Bulma, this would probably work as an excuse. The problem is the series actively draws attention to this kind of thing at different points then just drops it immediately.

Don't tease the audience with something if you're not going to explore or properly address it.

It is the good thing to do, but instead Goku just tells everyone he really wants to fight and everyone goes along with it. Even the human characters who basically know they're the most likely to get boned even with training.

I think that whole scene is meant to be played for humor, though. There are always like a million ways the heroes can avoid the big bad (Don't challenge Freeza, Don't let Cell become perfect, Don't let Buu revive, Don't anger Beerus) but Goku and Vegeta, who pretty much lead the show, always take the route of the warrior. I don't think it's fair to call Android saga "a mess" because the heroes enjoy fighting over a simpler solution.

The problem is everyones thinking like Goku and Vegeta except for Bulma. Even the character who should be smarter and question this stuff like Piccolo, Gohan and maybe Tien just go with it because why not? Hell, why are they even listening to what Vegeta wants in the first place? For most of them he's still the dick who tried to murder them two years ago and they probably barely tolerate his presence on Earth as is. Since when did everyone become a mindless fighting junkie like Goku?

As for the other examples, I think Buu and Cell at least work better because it fits with Vegeta's motivation at those points in the story. Its when they do stupid stuff like the aforementioned Cell Saga scene, Goku's schemes for the kids and his & Vegeta's ass backwards idea of beating Kid Buu.

[EXBadguy]

The problem is everyones thinking like Goku and Vegeta except for Bulma.

If characters agreeing on a plan is "thinking like x and x", then I rather have it that way. It'd be too predictable and boring as hell to just come to a solution to just call "Daddy Shenron" and blast villains away or Krillin pushing the button.

Hell, why are they even listening to what Vegeta wants in the first place? For most of them he's still the dick who tried to murder them two years ago and they probably barely tolerate his presence on Earth as is.

Maybe because in the afterworld, they found out that Vegeta was unwittingly evil? I'm not saying if Frieza didn't enslave Vegeta, he'd be good, but he would definitely have a different alignment.