Mr. Toriyama return to his roots

[ekrolo2]

Hell, why are they even listening to what Vegeta wants in the first place? For most of them he's still the dick who tried to murder them two years ago and they probably barely tolerate his presence on Earth as is.

Maybe because in the afterworld, they found out that Vegeta was unwittingly evil? I'm not saying if Freeza didn't enslave Vegeta, he'd be good, but he would definitely have a different alignment.

Still, that would be only enough for them to tolerate his presence on Earth but I don't buy it as enough for them to care or listen to what he has to say on any matter. Especially one which could lead to him becoming a lot stronger and a potential danger for the Earth again.

[Doctor.]

Something doesn't need to be overly complex, profound, or pretentious to invoke the sense of tension fans crave. I feel the Piccolo Jr-Frieza sagas were a perfect balance of this, light-heartedness, and simplicity. After minion #6343 was killed by Freeza, did we have an episode offering a flashback of how he joined Freeza's army and the family he had to leave behind? NO! Nobody cares. lol. Did Toriyama delve too deeply into the origins of the saiyans, their emotions during their last days, or Freeza's enslavement of various races? No, but we learned that Freeza does enslave innocent people and murder anyone who opposes him, regardless of age or gender. He's evil and ruthless. That's easy enough to get. But besides that, he's also much stronger than anyone else, which makes his presence intimidating.

These sagas set a tone that emphasized on the action and dire situations over gags and everyday occurrences. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to watch Pilaf sap away screen time; I don't want to see episode after episode of characters taking trips, working, or celebrating parties; I don't want garsh darn funny villains who just want some puddinnnn' and play janken with pigs for 30 minutes; and I don't want transformations that make the characters cuter, or are just palette swaps of previously established ones.

I'm really curious about what you feel about most of part 1, before the Daimao arc at least. Just because it isn't DEE BEE ZEE doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

[EXBadguy]

Hell, why are they even listening to what Vegeta wants in the first place? For most of them he's still the dick who tried to murder them two years ago and they probably barely tolerate his presence on Earth as is.

Maybe because in the afterworld, they found out that Vegeta was unwittingly evil? I'm not saying if Freeza didn't enslave Vegeta, he'd be good, but he would definitely have a different alignment.

Still, that would be only enough for them to tolerate his presence on Earth but I don't buy it as enough for them to care or listen to what he has to say on any matter. Especially one which could lead to him becoming a lot stronger and a potential danger for the Earth again.

I'd rather for them to hear Vegeta out then just fight him, cuz where would that lead to? Heck, Vegeta didn't go around blasting shit or tried to kill anyone when he came back to Earth. Remember, at least 80% of Vegeta's attitude came from Frieza, and since Frieza's destroyed, he's mellowed out.

[ekrolo2]

I'd rather for them to hear Vegeta out then just fight him, cuz where would that lead to? Heck, Vegeta didn't go around blasting shit or tried to kill anyone when he came back to Earth. Remember, at least 80% of Vegeta's attitude came from Freeza, and since Freeza's destroyed, he's mellowed out.

I'm not saying just punch him in the face to shut him up lol. Just ignore him and try to have a reasonable conversation with the people who's opinions you actually hold some regard for. To address a point of yours from before, them using Shenron wouldn't even need to necessarily just end the Android arc right then and there. Who's to say they did that, kill Gero only to find out he had already setup a counter measure to finish the Androids regardless somewhere else? Hell, them intervening could backfire and cause the Android threat to happen even earlier.

My point is, I'd prefer for the characters to do the smart thing and potentially fail rather than them doing the obnoxiously dumb thing and have them win only by virtue of being the protagonists and their bad guys being even dumber than them.

[Faustus]

If you're not going to explore it, don't bring it up in the first place is what I say on the matter. Once again, if everyone just decided fighting was the better option against the Androids and there's no scene in-universe pointing out how f*cking stupid of an idea that is through Bulma, this would probably work as an excuse. The problem is the series actively draws attention to this kind of thing at different points then just drops it immediately.

Don't tease the audience with something if you're not going to explore or properly address it.

Your notion of something getting “proper” treatment I think is poorly defined.

I can say, at the very least, that the moment Dragon Ball starts self-consciously shoveling through character flaws with a heavy hand and at painstaking length and in the way you’re suggesting is the moment it's either got to a) leave its characters as-is or b) (more likely) reform them in ways and by methods every bit as gross and heavy-handed, which is the moment it commits itself to being drippingly moralizing and the moment it mutates into One Piece -- and the moment I check out, for better or for worse.

Rendering the elements of “poison” in such subtle and understated ways as happens in the Dr. Gero "debate" without ever completely drilling the point into the ground is precisely what makes that development so refreshing and organic as far as I'm concerned -- and this series in general so fertile a site for discussion among other shonen. There's a lot to tease out.

[fadeddreams5]

Something doesn't need to be overly complex, profound, or pretentious to invoke the sense of tension fans crave. I feel the Piccolo Jr-Frieza sagas were a perfect balance of this, light-heartedness, and simplicity. After minion #6343 was killed by Freeza, did we have an episode offering a flashback of how he joined Freeza's army and the family he had to leave behind? NO! Nobody cares. lol. Did Toriyama delve too deeply into the origins of the saiyans, their emotions during their last days, or Freeza's enslavement of various races? No, but we learned that Freeza does enslave innocent people and murder anyone who opposes him, regardless of age or gender. He's evil and ruthless. That's easy enough to get. But besides that, he's also much stronger than anyone else, which makes his presence intimidating.

These sagas set a tone that emphasized on the action and dire situations over gags and everyday occurrences. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to watch Pilaf sap away screen time; I don't want to see episode after episode of characters taking trips, working, or celebrating parties; I don't want garsh darn funny villains who just want some puddinnnn' and play janken with pigs for 30 minutes; and I don't want transformations that make the characters cuter, or are just palette swaps of previously established ones.

I'm really curious about what you feel about most of part 1, before the Daimao arc at least. Just because it isn't DEE BEE ZEE doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

I like it. It was fun, but different. The main difference is not everyone was a god (figuratively speaking). Goku was a super strong boy, which led to funny scenarios, but he wasn't the strongest in his world, let alone the universe, so it was easy to pit him in tough situations and adventures. The RRA saga and Tien arc had some dark moments that appealed, and the Pilaf saga had adult humor that amused me. You can't compare this to Super just because that happens to have unfunny gags.

[ekrolo2]

If you're not going to explore it, don't bring it up in the first place is what I say on the matter. Once again, if everyone just decided fighting was the better option against the Androids and there's no scene in-universe pointing out how f*cking stupid of an idea that is through Bulma, this would probably work as an excuse. The problem is the series actively draws attention to this kind of thing at different points then just drops it immediately.

Don't tease the audience with something if you're not going to explore or properly address it.

Your notion of something getting “proper” treatment I think is poorly defined.

I can say, at the very least, that the moment Dragon Ball starts self-consciously shoveling through character flaws with a heavy hand and at painstaking length and in the way you’re suggesting is the moment it's either got to a) leave its characters as-is or b) (more likely) reform them in ways and by methods every bit as gross and heavy-handed, which is the moment it commits itself to being drippingly moralizing and the moment it mutates into One Piece -- and the moment I check out, for better or for worse.

Rendering the elements of “poison” in such subtle and understated ways as in the Dr. Gero "debate" you mention without ever completely drilling the point into the ground is precisely what makes that development so refreshing and organic as far as I'm concerned -- and this series in general so fertile a site for discussion among other shonen.

Keeping character flaws isn't a flaw of writing in and out of itself. But Dragon Ball has hit a breaking point where everyones been basically on auto pilot for decades now with little development. What development does happen has either been rehashed quickly such as Goku's apparent arrogance from BoG to RoF or ones which practically don't make a lick of sense like Vegeta apparently over analyzing everything also from RoF.

Goku getting a sense of responsibility doesn't have to immediately destroy his desire for fighting or to train. Vegeta wanting to leave a better legacy so he can at the very least stay with Bulma when he dies in battle or old age doesn't mean he can't still be the same "Kakarotto!" Vegeta we know and love. Hell, you don't even need to have the characters to over the top speeches or whatever. Just have some moments where they actually stop to think on the big picture for a while and in that moment, consciously choose to keep that in mind for the future if you're so worried about things becoming heavy handed if they get dragged out more.

[Doctor.]

I like it. It was fun, but different. The main difference is not everyone was a god (figuratively speaking). Goku was a super strong boy, which led to funny scenarios, but he wasn't the strongest in his world, let alone the universe, so it was easy to pit him in tough situations and adventures. The RRA saga and Tenshinhan arc had some dark moments that appealed, and the Pilaf saga had adult humor that amused me. You can't compare this to Super just because that happens to have unfunny gags.

I'm comparing it to Super because Super, like the material it adapts from (BoG), is literally a throwback to that time of the series. The tone is the same, the kinds of gags are the same.

[fadeddreams5]

I recall pervy gags, ones involving Goku's supernatural strength, despite his stature, and others revolving around Goku's ignorance because he grew up in the wild.

None of the gags in Super really feel like a throwback to me, besides Bulma offering Oolong anything he wants, which actually comes off as weird. Certain jokes that worked back then really can't nowadays because the characters are grown up.

[Cipher]

Agreed with Faustus again. Dragon Ball's whole shtick is that it sees a pure-hearted (in terms of focus) person shrinking the world around them for the better even as the audience recognizes their genuinely awful and problematic decisions (due to that same "pure"ness). It's there to mine or simply enjoy, but it's much more interesting than whatever trite moralizing, in this genre, could replace it.

Characters becoming stale may or may not be a genuine complaint. But I won't budge on that central tenet being a refreshing one, and one not better replaced with standard positive development.

[Doctor.]

I recall pervy gags,

Roshi and Oolong still do that.

ones involving Goku's supernatural strength,

Goku wrecking Kaio's planet.

None of the gags in Super really feel like a throwback to me

They may not feel like a throwback, but I think it's extremely obvious it is. Just like GT's first arc tried to be. You can argue on execution, but that's a different aspect all together.

[fadeddreams5]

Roshi and Oolong still do that.

Well yeah, that's their schtick, especially Roshi. I meant in the general sense, like Bulma's panty scenes, Nam's fight with Ranfan, Yamcha seeing Bulma naked, and so on. A real throwback is Goku offering Bulma to Old Kai.

Goku wrecking Kaio's planet.

I'm specifically referring to Kid Goku. The joke is that he's a small boy, not an alien god.

[SilverPlaqueVII]

What the OP said is since Dragon Ball was first published in 1984, this series is entirely but basically a parody of Journey to the West and other pop-culture icons such as Star Wars in which Toriyama is a fan of, Super Sentai, and the others. From the start, the DB anime is all pure comedy/gag, while the later arcs seem to get little darker. However in DBZ, it became more darker and action packed than before while DBGT recycled and combined them both.

Even though he is 60 years old, I am not judging but he did a fantastic job on the recent two films he was involved and recently revealed the true names of Jinzoningens #17 and #18 as "Lapis" and "Lazuli".

Dragon Ball GT? I guess unlike Super, it has no gag or anything whatsoever but more like a destructive mayhem on its feet in or out.

[Absolute Ice]

Even though he is 60 years old, I am not judging but he did a fantastic job on the recent two films he was involved.

But Dragon Ball Minus and Freeza's golden form are proofs he can also do bad things.

[ekrolo2]

Even though he is 60 years old, I am not judging but he did a fantastic job on the recent two films he was involved.

But Dragon Ball Minus and Freeza's golden form are proofs he can also do bad things.

Trust me, theres plenty of stuff from his younger years that proves he can do lots worse than Minus or Golden Freeza.