Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kamiccolo9]

Assuming the "Why?" is questioning our reasoning behind the chains we made... meh... it would take a lot of work. If anyone was interested enough in a particular placement of mine and questioned it I would provide reasoning. But to explain all four of those chains with multiple characters and all of their relative placements...

That is kinda what a discussion forum is for. Otherwise, this should just be in the power level thread.

[Kaboom]

This is just power levels in a sightly different form, so I'm merging it with the appropriate thread.

[LightBing]

You're being pedantic.It's a roundabout question, but still a question. It corroborates my point.

I don't see how it's a question.

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

He flat-out says he won't do any good against Cell. Him asking Goku to be frank with him isn't him asking if he can beat Cell. Otherwise, it'd be worded like this:

Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but will it be enough to beat Cell…?”

That, coupled with Vegeta laughing off Piccolo's power, while actually admitting inferiority to 50% Goku tell me that Piccolo may not have even surpassed SSG2 Vegeta.

Why would he then need confirmation from Goku? At the very least he's close to 50% Goku. If he was that much below he would just directly state his inferiority. Plus Trunks, in the panel were Goku shoots down Piccolo, acts startled, with sweat running down his face. Piccolo behind weaker than SSG2 Vegeta is prosperous, you're confusing when things happened. Vegeta not once laughed at Piccolo's power after he emerged from the RoSaT.

This was what happened:
Goku comes out of RoSaT, checks Cell, says he probably cant beat him. Visits Karin, displays 50% of his power.Vegeta admits he is inferior(around this time is when Vegeta tells Piccolo not to bother using the RoSaT.) A few days later, Piccolo asks Goku about his power, after being complemented on it.

This all points out for Piccolo being close to 50% Goku or slightly stronger. He doesn't know how strong Goku actually is, he asks for Goku's opinion to get a better grasp of Goku's and Cell's power, using his own as a measuring tool.

Not really. Instead of Piccolo asking if he even had a chance against Cell, he does the opposite and flat-out states that he doesn't have a chance, to which Goku approves his prediction. Not sure how those are remotely the same.

You've gotta take into account the whole context, Piccolo has enough information to be uncertain and but also enough power(in the realm of 50% Goku).

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Plus Trunks, in the panel were Goku shoots down Piccolo, acts startled, with sweat running down his face.

All that has to be is shock at Goku's calmness/frankness. Goku is acting odd in what logically would be a time of despair, but instead he's calm and relaxed because he knows he has Gohan, but not everyone else knows that.

Piccolo behind weaker than SSG2 Vegeta is prosperous, you're confusing when things happened. Vegeta not once laughed at Piccolo's power after he emerged from the RoSaT.

Anime filler. My bad.

This was what happened:
Goku comes out of RoSaT, checks Cell, says he probably cant beat him. Visits Karin, displays 50% of his power.Vegeta admits he is inferior(around this time is when Vegeta tells Piccolo not to bother using the RoSaT.) A few days later, Piccolo asks Goku about his power, after being complemented on it.

This all points out for Piccolo being close to 50% Goku or slightly stronger. He doesn't know how strong Goku actually is, he asks for Goku's opinion to get a better grasp of Goku's and Cell's power, using his own as a measuring tool.

There is literally no question in Piccolo's dialogue.

He basically tells Goku "Stop patronizing me. I know I've gotten stronger but I'm still no match for Cell."

[LightBing]

All that has to be is shock at Goku's calmness/frankness. Goku is acting odd in what logically would be a time of despair, but instead he's calm and relaxed because he knows he has Gohan, but not everyone else knows that.

I see were you're coming from, but from the panel it appears he's reacting to the claim itself and not the general attitude Goku has. He just arrived, and this conversation is the first thing that happens.

There is literally no question in Piccolo's dialogue.

He basically tells Goku "Stop patronizing me. I know I've gotten stronger but I'm still no match for Cell."

Agree to disagree. Even if we don't take into account the question, Goku compliments Piccolo, when a few days prior he almost mocks Vegeta and Trunks, by saying they still have much to improve. This at the very least puts Piccolo ahead of Vegeta when he fought Cell. Now, I choose to put him slightly stronger than 50% Goku, based on all this factors discussed. You and others might put him weaker, however he should be decently stronger than Super Vegeta. I think that we must agree, is a fact.

[ahill1]

Trunks demonstra surpresa quando Goku diz que Piccolo não tem nenhuma chance contra Cell. Ou seja, o filho de Bejita achava que o namek tinha pelo menos chances, isso demonstra que Piccolo > Trunks. Na mente de Trunks, Goku ( 50% ) era Goku ( 100% ), mas então por que Kamiccolo não tinha mais chances contra Cell?? Nesse momento penso que Mirai Toranksu descobriu que o poder que o protagonista demonstrara a Karin não era seu máximo poder. Piccolo descobriu isso durante sua estadia na sala do tempo.

Analisando isso tudo, penso que Piccolo tenha um poder pelo menos a par com Goku SSJ ( 50% ), senão ligeiramente mais forte. Vegeta e Trunks são um pouco mais fortes que isso, mas não muito, diria que os dois são, respectivamente, 60 e 59. Os Cell Jr sendo apenas um pouco mais fortes que isso, uns 62, permitiria a Piccolo, cujo poder ronda os 50, a colocar uma luta.

Goku SSJ 100
Cell Jr 62.5
Vegeta SSJ 60
Trunks SSJ 59
Piccolo 53

[Saiga]

The phrasing Cell uses in Japanese actually does imply that "someone" else was putting up a fight. Process of elimination leaves Piccolo, as everyone else, including Goku, was taken out fairly easily, and Piccolo was seen standing.

As far as I understand it, it leaves room for someone to put up a fight without necessarily meaning someone else was putting up a fight.

So it's useless either way, except to comment on Vegeta and Trunks.

[DanielSSJ]

Oficially Raditz have 1200 PL or 1500 PL? And about Nappa, 4000 PL or 7000 PL?

I don't know about "officially", but I put Raditz at 1500 and Nappa at 6500.

[ahill1]

4,000 pl for Nappa was stated in Daiz, though I do not think so accurate; Goku said his fight against Nappa would last forever. Besides this Raditz was said to rival the Saibaiman; 1,500 rivals 1,200? I don't think so. I have

Nappa ( Full Power ) 8,000
Raditz 1,250

[LightBing]

4,000 pl for Nappa was stated in Daiz, though I do not think so accurate; Goku said his fight against Nappa would last forever. Besides this Raditz was said to rival the Saibaiman; 1,500 rivals 1,200? I don't think so. I have

Nappa ( Full Power ) 8,000
Raditz 1,250

I would bring Nappa down quite a bit. Goku stopped his strongest attack with a quick Kamehameha. If Nappa was that close, Goku would be a bit more worried. I would say between 6.500 and 7.500.

[ahill1]

4,000 pl for Nappa was stated in Daiz, though I do not think so accurate; Goku said his fight against Nappa would last forever. Besides this Raditz was said to rival the Saibaiman; 1,500 rivals 1,200? I don't think so. I have

Nappa ( Full Power ) 8,000
Raditz 1,250

I would bring Nappa down quite a bit. Goku stopped his strongest attack with a quick Kamehameha. If Nappa was that close, Goku would be a bit more worried. I would say between 6.500 and 7.500.

I think at that stage, Nappa has not perfected ki amplification trough blasts, hence I would give it a low multiplier.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Nappa at 7,500 is good for me. Raditz anywhere from 1,250 to 1,350.

[Kaboom]

The official numbers for both Raditz and Nappa can work perfectly fine if you let them.

Nappa doesn't actually strictly say that the Saibaimen are "equal" to Raditz; the Japanese term used means more "on the same general level" or "rivaling." Toriyama also said that Raditz was stronger than them. So the 1,500 number fits all those requirements.

As for Nappa himself, I don't think he put up nearly as much of a "fight" against Goku as many think he did. He never landed a single blow, and he even had his "ultimate" attack quickly and easily countered at nearly point-blank range. The guidebooks say that Goku "treated Nappa like a child," which he really did. He's encouraging and congratulating Nappa the way a grade school sports coach would cheer on one of their players.

Nappa supposedly taking forever to beat can easily be chalked up to an insane amount of durability — the guy's built like a tank, and he was bouncing back from everything thrown at him. Ten's (admittedly weaker than usual) Kikoho, Chaozu's self-destruct, and even Goku's blows. Goku actually used the English word "tough" to describe him when he said the fight might drag on.

Heck, the Earthlings and Piccolo actually did far better against Nappa than Nappa did against Goku. They (mostly Piccolo) at least managed to land some attacks and do some damage to him. So the "feats" are actually more indicative of him being closer in power level to Piccolo and Co. than to Goku. Nappa having a PL of 4,000-4,500 and simply being "tough" enough to hang with people stronger than him is perfectly reasonable.

[LightBing]

The official numbers for both Raditz and Nappa can work perfectly fine if you let them.

Nappa doesn't actually strictly say that the Saibaimen are "equal" to Raditz; the Japanese term used means more "on the same general level" or "rivaling." Toriyama also said that Raditz was stronger than them. So the 1,500 number fits all those requirements.

As for Nappa himself, I don't think he put up nearly as much of a "fight" against Goku as many think he did. He never landed a single blow, and he even had his "ultimate" attack quickly and easily countered at nearly point-blank range. The guidebooks say that Goku "treated Nappa like a child," which he really did. He's encouraging and congratulating Nappa the way a grade school sports coach would cheer on one of their players.

Nappa supposedly taking forever to beat can easily be chalked up to an insane amount of durability — the guy's built like a tank, and he was bouncing back from everything thrown at him. Ten's (admittedly weaker than usual) Kikoho, Chaozu's self-destruct, and even Goku's blows. Goku actually used the English word "tough" to describe him when he said the fight might drag on.

Heck, the Earthlings and Piccolo actually did far better against Nappa than Nappa did against Goku. They (mostly Piccolo) at least managed to land some attacks and do some damage to him. So the "feats" are actually more indicative of him being closer in power level to Piccolo and Co. than to Goku. Nappa having a PL of 4,000-4,500 and simply being "tough" enough to hang with people stronger than him is perfectly reasonable.

I disagree, we have too make too many compromises to fit Nappa. Tough can't explain everything.

Goku made the comment "tough", after defending from Nappa's attack, not from when he was beating him around. When Nappa calmed himself down, he charged Goku, was able to dodge a kick and have an exchange were both were even. It seems he uses tough to acknowledge strength, not durability. It would take for ever because, from the exchange we saw, Nappa was holding his own and not being punched like a volleyball. A few chapters later, Goku dominates Vegeta with a much smaller gap in power.

Regarding the fact the Earthlings and Piccolo doing better against Nappa, isn't that kinda of a paradox to use as an argument? Because we know Goku is stronger than his friends, a good deal stronger. Yet, they having a better showing against Nappa proves he's closer to them than Goku? I argue, he wasn't serious fighting them, with most of the damage being taken from surprise attacks.

I have a theory for the 4000/4500 number they came up with. It's just to make Nappa weaker in comparison, with the first value given to Goku, 5000.The guide creator made the number with the basis the scouter was broken. Nappa says it twice, Vegeta doesn't disagree with him. He breaks the scouter, with a line after that, which shows still some strangeness over Goku's new power.

Here's the quotes, where it happens:

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

Chapter: 224 (DBZ 30), P11.3/P12.2-4
Context: as Goku powers up
Vegeta: “"Battle power 7,000... 8,000...!! Impossible...!!!"
Nappa: “Ve-Vegeta…How high has Kakarot’s battle power become?!”
Vegeta: “Over 8,000.”
Nappa: “Over 8,000?! It’s a mistake! It’s broken!”

Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P1.5
Vegeta: “Strange. His battle power is completely different from when he fought Raditz…!”

I kinda feel you're forcing yourself to justify the guide numbers, than to actually analyze it without that restraint. I say this without any pretentiousness.

[Kaboom]

Not quite, Goku made the "tough" remark while noting that Nappa wasn't damaged from his own attack, either (“He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!!"). It seems much more to me like a comment on Nappa's resiliency. And dodging one or two blows, or having a quick flurry-blow-exchange without effortless dodging or tanking, doesn't automatically denote being close in power. Otherwise that'd mean a random Namekian civilian was "close" in power to Dodoria, or Jheese was "close" to Vegeta, or 50% Freeza was "close" to SS Goku, etc. That hardly counts as Nappa "holding his own" or outweighs the other 95% of the fight where Goku was straight-up pwnzing him.

Nappa can't freely change his battle power (even Vegeta couldn't do that until Namek), so whatever power he used against the Earthling crew is the same as what he used against Goku. All that could have changed is his effort and focus, which allowed him to switch from playing around with weaker foes to fumbling against but then kinda impressing someone way stronger than him. We've seen what being calm and focused can do before — it took Kuririn from not even seeing Jackie Chun's punch to being able to counter it.

I'm not forcing myself to hold to anything; I've seen this "debate" about Nappa's power play out a kajillion times, and I'm intimately familiar with every bit of evidence there is on the topic. The way I see it, the problem isn't with Nappa's 4,000-ish number, it's with fussing too much about "gaps," and reading way too much into Nappa's admittedly impressive but ultimately futile efforts against Goku. So quite to the contrary, I'm the one who's let go and decided not to adhere to strict preconceptions about power level ratios and such.

It's much simpler that way. Nappa's official PL of 4,000 is...

1) Higher than the people he beat.
1a) But still kind of close to them because they managed to do some damage to him.
2) Weaker than the person who beat Nappa.
2a) MUCH weaker, because that person made sport of him, and Nappa never even landed a single blow.

It checks out.

[Blackstripe]

Kaboom;

The problem is that in every other instance of someone being 2x someone's power, there was a very clear distinction in their abilities. Like, they had no chance in hell of really winning or even holding their own against them for even a second. Look at how 50% Freeza gave KKx10 Gokuu the runaround. Heck, just the difference between Vegeta and Dodoria on Namek was enough to make it a one sided battle, and so I can't really buy that 4,000 would give 8,000+ any sort of difficulty whatsoever, never mind managing to trade blows on even ground with them.

Secondly, allow me to further note that Vegeta - who undoubtedly knows Nappa's power better than anyone, perhaps even Nappa himself - tells him that Gokuu (whom he knows is 8,000+) is NOT an unbeatable opponent for him. He says this right after he shouts for him to calm down. He thinks he might have to step in, but this is because of Nappa being a hotheaded idiot, not a difference in power. I can't see Vegeta thinking a Nappa with a maximum power of 4,000 could possibly ever win. Besides, the Daizenshuu also places Piccolo at 3,500, but he never dared to take on Nappa one-on-one in an extended brawl, and could never hold his own against him. If a 12.5% difference in power can lead to such an imbalance between the fighters, do you really think Nappa at half his opponent's level would be able to even properly dodge/parry any of Gokuu's attacks?

Thirdly, Nappa proceeds to power up after Vegeta yells at him. No, it's not just him charging up his two-finger attack, because you can see the aura still around him when he charges Gokuu and in the next few panels, where he fights evenly with him. It seems to me that the Mangaka's intentions here are to show this Nappa is far above what the humans faced. This is him calm and serious, instead of angry and toying. All together, I feel like these things paint a picture of a fighter that is on Gokuu's level, and whom could last an extended period of time against him. I should also note, that Gokuu admits he would've been in trouble if he took Nappa's attack head on. You're suggesting that Gokuu was worried about taking the attack of a level 4,000 fighter?

I just don't see how it works for Nappa's max power to be 4,000. It makes no sense to me.

[Noah]

Trunks demonstra surpresa quando Goku diz que Piccolo não tem nenhuma chance contra Cell. Ou seja, o filho de Bejita achava que o namek tinha pelo menos chances, isso demonstra que Piccolo > Trunks. Na mente de Trunks, Goku ( 50% ) era Goku ( 100% ), mas então por que Kamiccolo não tinha mais chances contra Cell?? Nesse momento penso que Mirai Toranksu descobriu que o poder que o protagonista demonstrara a Karin não era seu máximo poder. Piccolo descobriu isso durante sua estadia na sala do tempo.

Analisando isso tudo, penso que Piccolo tenha um poder pelo menos a par com Goku SSJ ( 50% ), senão ligeiramente mais forte. Vegeta e Trunks são um pouco mais fortes que isso, mas não muito, diria que os dois são, respectivamente, 60 e 59. Os Cell Jr sendo apenas um pouco mais fortes que isso, uns 62, permitiria a Piccolo, cujo poder ronda os 50, a colocar uma luta.

Goku SSJ 100
Cell Jr 62.5
Vegeta SSJ 60
Trunks SSJ 59
Piccolo 53

Dude, this is a English Forum

[dbgtFO]

Trunks demonstra surpresa quando Goku diz que Piccolo não tem nenhuma chance contra Cell. Ou seja, o filho de Bejita achava que o namek tinha pelo menos chances, isso demonstra que Piccolo > Trunks. Na mente de Trunks, Goku ( 50% ) era Goku ( 100% ), mas então por que Kamiccolo não tinha mais chances contra Cell?? Nesse momento penso que Mirai Toranksu descobriu que o poder que o protagonista demonstrara a Karin não era seu máximo poder. Piccolo descobriu isso durante sua estadia na sala do tempo.

Analisando isso tudo, penso que Piccolo tenha um poder pelo menos a par com Goku SSJ ( 50% ), senão ligeiramente mais forte. Vegeta e Trunks são um pouco mais fortes que isso, mas não muito, diria que os dois são, respectivamente, 60 e 59. Os Cell Jr sendo apenas um pouco mais fortes que isso, uns 62, permitiria a Piccolo, cujo poder ronda os 50, a colocar uma luta.

Goku SSJ 100
Cell Jr 62.5
Vegeta SSJ 60
Trunks SSJ 59
Piccolo 53

Dude, this is a English Forum

Indeed, though his post was quite easy to understand, even though it is in spanish(inb4 it's actually portugese ). It helps to know the context of his post.

[LightBing]

Trunks demonstra surpresa quando Goku diz que Piccolo não tem nenhuma chance contra Cell. Ou seja, o filho de Bejita achava que o namek tinha pelo menos chances, isso demonstra que Piccolo > Trunks. Na mente de Trunks, Goku ( 50% ) era Goku ( 100% ), mas então por que Kamiccolo não tinha mais chances contra Cell?? Nesse momento penso que Mirai Toranksu descobriu que o poder que o protagonista demonstrara a Karin não era seu máximo poder. Piccolo descobriu isso durante sua estadia na sala do tempo.

Analisando isso tudo, penso que Piccolo tenha um poder pelo menos a par com Goku SSJ ( 50% ), senão ligeiramente mais forte. Vegeta e Trunks são um pouco mais fortes que isso, mas não muito, diria que os dois são, respectivamente, 60 e 59. Os Cell Jr sendo apenas um pouco mais fortes que isso, uns 62, permitiria a Piccolo, cujo poder ronda os 50, a colocar uma luta.

Goku SSJ 100
Cell Jr 62.5
Vegeta SSJ 60
Trunks SSJ 59
Piccolo 53

Dude, this is a English Forum

Indeed, though his post was quite easy to understand, even though it is in spanish(inb4 it's actually portugese ). It helps to know the context of his post.

It's Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese to be specific.

[Doctor.]

Dude, this is a English Forum

He probably mixed up the forums he was on, happened to me sometimes too.