Thoughts on Cyborg Freeza

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Oftentimes fans tend to hate the fact that Freeza, after being rebuilt, decided to immediately go to Earth. They argue that he should have bided his time before getting revenge. However, I'm wondering whether or not Freeza would have been respected by his underlings and slaves with the physical reminders of his defeat (despite the fact that he's stronger now). If Freeza did lose respect as a result of his defeat by Goku, then he would need to exact revenge immediately.

What do you think? Should Freeza have waited before going to Earth, or did he have no choice?

All of Frieza's underlings were scared of him (with the exception of maybe Zarbon or Dodoria who stood beside him). Every once in a while he will even kill one of his soldiers to make an example out of them. I doubt it's even their choice to work for Frieza, so respect or reputation shouldn't be factors here.

It just fits Frieza's overall character and personality to jump the gun and not think things through. He could have probably done some training before going back to Earth but he let his anger cloud his judgement.

Though I'm not sure if this whole "Frieza never trained" thing was even established in the story line that early... Regardless, it would have been the right thing to do.

[rereboy]

And it is brought out by training your body, and pushing it beyond it's limits.

How does that make it comparable to a real life example where Ki doesn't exist? It doesn't.

The coffee candy scene was done through magic, and we don't know if his ki dropped or not. All we know is that Vegetto was so absurdly strong, that even a small fraction of his power would've still been enough to troll Buu. Evidence supports one's power normally dropping when they're turned into something: you didn't see Dabura continue to fight/resist after being turned into a cookie, right?

Either his power dropped but was still high enough for him to be able to move, or, possibly more likely, the Potara fusion's magic interfered with Buu's, hence the odd result with Vegetto which was different from anyone else that was turned into food.

The point with the example was to demonstrate to you just how little the body matters in comparison to the real world, precisely because of the spiritual aspect of Ki, not to speculate exactly why that happened to Vegetto.

This discussion is rather pointless anyway since you aren't actually arguing that he wouldn't be able to get stronger.

Akira Toriyama said that he would never be any match for Beerus, no matter what he did. Coupled with him saying he was going to draw out all of his potential (or something along those lines), it seems impossible for him to go any higher. He was already reasonably close to the God of Destruction's power, though he would still lose badly if Beerus went 100% against him. There's nowhere else for him to really go between those two points.

I take those statements with a ton of salt. It's obvious that there's actually no absolute top limit to any character. Character's have been stated to have reached their limits only to surpass them somehow several times before. Probably if you asked Toriyama a couple of years ago, when Goku's best was just SSJ3, if Freeza could ever surpass Goku, he would say no, and yet, in this latest movie, Freeza is so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku that it's like comparing a whale to an ant.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I second ^ what he says about "limits".

Gohan did this, what 3 or 4 times in the series? He did it so many times it was no longer a surprise to the audience.
Even after having drawn out his "potential" in the Buu Saga he can still train more and get stronger...

[Blackstripe]

How does that make it comparable to a real life example where Ki doesn't exist? It doesn't.

I'm saying that it's not just spiritual, even in Dragon Ball. Bringing out the full potential of your Ki requires a strong body, too. This is shown time and again. Why do you think King Piccolo needed to restore his youth to become strong again? Because his body had gotten old and withered, and no longer could afford him nearly as much ki.

The point with the example was to demonstrate to you just how little the body matters in comparison to the real world, precisely because of the spiritual aspect of Ki, not to speculate exactly why that happened to Vegetto.

This demonstrates nothing though, except that Vegetto/Potara is weird.

I take those statements with a ton of salt. It's obvious that there's actually no absolute top limit to any character. Character's have been stated to have reached their limits only to surpass them somehow several times before. Probably if you asked Toriyama a couple of years ago, when Goku's best was just SSJ3, if Freeza could ever surpass Goku, he would say no, and yet, in this latest movie, Freeza is so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku that it's like comparing a whale to an ant.

You can do that if you want. I'm going to take a statement by the creator as fact, however, until it is proven otherwise. Besides, I don't think we'll be seeing Freeza return again in any canon material. His character arc has seriously run its course already.

But you're right about one thing. If the argument is simply whether or not Freeza could get stronger in his cyborg body, then we agree that he could increase his power enough to easily beat any Trunks Saga fighter.

[rereboy]

I'm saying that it's not just spiritual, even in Dragon Ball. Bringing out the full potential of your Ki requires a strong body, too. This is shown time and again. Why do you think King Piccolo needed to restore his youth to become strong again? Because his body had gotten old and withered, and no longer could afford him nearly as much ki.

Sure, but the argument that Freeza couldn't improve at all or very little is based on the importance of the body to the ki, suggesting that losing a big portion of one's body would impair someone's progress to such a degree that any improvements would be hard. However, like I stated, Ki is not just about the body, it's also spiritual, arguably mostly in the later portions of the series, and there's nothing in the series implying that it would translate into such a impairment. It could possibly somewhat impair the person, sure, but never to such a degree and mostly regarding his movements and way of fighting, not so much about the size of his Ki. Like I said, if it took Freeza 4 months to reach that level, even if it was 10 times as hard, it would just take 3 years.

Old age would affect Ki more extensively than simply losing part of the body, btw, since, on one hand, it affects 100% of the body and, on the other, one of the specifics components of Ki is vitality.

This demonstrates nothing though, except that Vegetto/Potara is weird.

It doesn't demonstrate that, unlike the real world where the body is everything, in Dragon Ball that is clearly not the case and it might even hardly matter? Ok. I didn't just mentioned that to argue that that was the case, though... Things like tiny 4-year old Gohan having more Ki than his big, muscular dad, Future Gohan not being implied to have lost Ki when he lost his arm, even Vegeta being so much stronger than Giant Nappa... All this points to the body being far, far from being everything and in many cases, hardly mattering.

You can do that if you want. I'm going to take a statement by the creator as fact, however, until it is proven otherwise. Besides, I don't think we'll be seeing Freeza return again in any canon material. His character arc has seriously run its course already.

But you're right about one thing. If the argument is simply whether or not Freeza could get stronger in his cyborg body, then we agree that he could increase his power enough to easily beat any Trunks Saga fighter.

The author is the highest authority, but he is not perfect and can make mistakes and even create plotholes and go against the very logic of the series (in this case, existing an actual top absolute limit for any character). Off-hand statements shouldn't all be taken as gospel at face value, especially if it's pretty easy for the author to change his mind later regarding that point, as it would almost surely happen if he used Freeza again for anything. I'm not assuming that the statement is untrue, I'm simply not assuming it's automatically true. Statements like that require something more to be taken seriously, imo, like, for example, actual inclusion in the actual series.

[Draconic]

While I agree that the body isn't that important, we shouldn't overlook the fact that the machanical components would probably have limits. Especially at the amount of ki big enough to rival a god. So Frieza could probably get stronger, but nowhere near the level he did in FnF.

[rereboy]

While I agree that the body isn't that important, we shouldn't overlook the fact that the machanical components would probably have limits. Especially at the amount of ki big enough to rival a god. So Freeza could probably get stronger, but nowhere near the level he did in FnF.

Freeza has a natural Ki. It's not his mechanical parts that are giving him his power. What would grow would be his natural Ki.

[Draconic]

While I agree that the body isn't that important, we shouldn't overlook the fact that the machanical components would probably have limits. Especially at the amount of ki big enough to rival a god. So Freeza could probably get stronger, but nowhere near the level he did in FnF.

Freeza has a natural Ki. It's not his mechanical parts that are giving him his power. What would grow would be his natural Ki.

But would the mechanical components handle that ki? That's what i am saying.

[rereboy]

While I agree that the body isn't that important, we shouldn't overlook the fact that the machanical components would probably have limits. Especially at the amount of ki big enough to rival a god. So Freeza could probably get stronger, but nowhere near the level he did in FnF.

Freeza has a natural Ki. It's not his mechanical parts that are giving him his power. What would grow would be his natural Ki.

But would the mechanical components handle that ki? That's what i am saying.

Even if they didn't, all that would happen would be that he wouldn't be able to use them. Meaning that he would be just as strong, just not able to use his mechanical legs, arms and perhaps eye. He would move and fight pretty much like he did when Goku gave him that bit of energy after he cut himself.

[Draconic]

Frieza's power drops when he has a healthy body. Using just half would probably drain him imediatley. And if he was caught of guard he would lose just as easily. Especially since he could only use one arm. It would be really futile, even if we assume he could reach a high enough level to make training worth it.

[Blackstripe]

Rareboy;

Freeza was dramatically weakened when his body was sliced apart by his kienzan-like attacks. Even after Gokuu gave him some of his energy, he was nowhere near the power he was before being sliced. See how easily Gokuu overwhelmed his attempt to backstab him?

If the body wasn't that important, then it shouldn't matter that he was sliced up, right? He could clearly survive like that, so why did he power drop so severely, to the point where he couldn't even move? And why does the body taking damage reduce one's ki, if it doesn't matter? Why does Freeza's lack of experience in his final form drain his power? It's because of fatigue. Fatigue is something related to the body no longer being able to function at full capacity due to overtaxing itself.

Ki requires a healthy body to flow through in order to reach its full potential. With all that Freeza lost, he no longer had that. I would argue that the cyborg parts would never allow his Ki to truly flow properly like they would in a healthy body. If he trained, the healthy parts of him would grow stronger, but they would always be handicapped by his cyborg parts.

Now, if you believe that Freeza could just infinitely improve forever, then yes, I could see how you might think he could attain RoF levels eventually. I do not accept this idea, however. I believe RoF was his absolute limit power-wise, and thus his absolute potential would be reduced.