Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Where do you guys have:

Goku SSJ ( Cell Games ): 2,400,000,000

Cell ( Vs Goku ): 2,750,000,000

Cell ( Real Speed, vs Gohan ): 2,750,000,000

Gohan SSJ ( Buu Saga ): 3,100,000,000

Dabura: 5,500,000,000

Gohan SSJ ( Cell Games ): 3,000,000,000

Say what?!

Even though Dabra was struggling against a watered down SSJ Teen Gohan?

Dabura fought a SSJ2 Gohan, as stated by Daizenshuu 7.

[Blackstripe]

Where do you guys have:

Goku SSJ ( Cell Games ): 2,400,000,000

Cell ( Vs Goku ): 2,750,000,000

Cell ( Real Speed, vs Gohan ): 2,750,000,000

Gohan SSJ ( Buu Saga ): 3,100,000,000

Dabura: 5,500,000,000

Gohan SSJ ( Cell Games ): 3,000,000,000

Say what?!

Even though Dabra was struggling against a watered down SSJ Teen Gohan?

Some believe he was SSJ2, and some believe he was in fact no weaker or even stronger than in the Cell Saga. Zombie is clearly one of those people.

[ahill1]

I don't believe that sparring against Gohan is an accurate indicator to how strong Goten is. Not only has Gohan's power gone down from 7 years ago, but his skills and reflexes would've been severely rusty.

While that's true, Gohan was still strong enough to fight Dabra as a SS/SS2, so his power couldn't have dropped that much. His skills are rusty, but Goten wouldn't have any skill to begin with, evening it out.

It's also worth noting when there actually is a big gap in power between two people sparring, it's shown to be one-sided, unlike Goten and Gohan's sparring, which is shown completely even.

Also, I doubt a reactive punch from Vegeta would kill 18. If Vegeta slugged her with all of his might, it would be a different story, but if he hit her as hard as he hit Trunks when they were training, 18 would have a broken jaw, at the worst.

Why are you assuming his punch against Trunks wasn't full force? The punch was out of instinct and not intentional, how could Vegeta actively suppress something he doesn't mean to do?

Goku SSJ ( Cell Games ): 2,400,000,000

Gohan SSJ ( Cell Games ): 3,000,000,000

Why such a small gap between the two?

Where do you guys have:

Goku SSJ ( Cell Games )

Cell ( Vs Goku )

Cell ( Real Speed, vs Gohan )

Gohan SSJ ( Buu Saga )

Dabura

Gohan SSJ ( Cell Games )

Goku: 36

Cell (@ Goku): 40.5
Cell (@ Gohan): 54

Dabra: 40.5

Gohan (Cell): 54
Gohan (Boo): 40

So you have Dabura = Cell ( Vs Goku ), huh?

Why do you have Cell increasing his power if he said he only increased his speed?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

So you have Dabura = Cell ( Vs Goku ), huh?

Why do you have Cell increasing his power if he said he only increased his speed?

Why wouldn't he increase his power? The two generally go hand-in-hand. The only instances we've really seen otherwise is the Ginyus and they seemed like anomalies.

[ZombieVito]

So you have Dabura = Cell ( Vs Goku ), huh?

Why do you have Cell increasing his power if he said he only increased his speed?

Why wouldn't he increase his power? The two generally go hand-in-hand. The only instances we've really seen otherwise is the Ginyus and they seemed like anomalies.

Because no power up was noted.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because no power up was noted.

No power up was noted when Cell went from weaker than SSG2 Vegeta to strong enough to tank SSG2 Vegeta. Should we also assume there was no increase in power there?

[ZombieVito]

Because no power up was noted.

No power up was noted when Cell went from weaker than SSG2 Vegeta to strong enough to tank SSG2 Vegeta. Should we also assume there was no increase in power there?

Cell himself said he would show more of his power..

In the Cell games Cell said two times that he would only increase his speed. Why make the distinction? Why not just say effort?

[Khin]

Lets say Piccolo learned kaioken after training with Kaiou-sama.Where would you him put at these versions of him with kaioken x10 and x20?
-Pre Nail Fusion
-Post Nail Fusion
-Android Saga
-Kamiccolo
-Cell Games
-End of Z

[ZombieVito]

Lets say Piccolo learned kaioken after training with Kaiou-sama.Where would you him put at these versions of him with kaioken x10 and x20?

-Pre Nail Fusion: 120,000
KKx10: 1,200,000
KKx20: 12,000,000

At KKx10 he is equal to 2nd form Freeza and in KKx20 he is equal to Freeza's 10% full power.

-Post Nail Fusion: 1,200,000
KKx10: 12,000,000
KKx20: 24,000,000

No explanation needed.

-Android Saga: 180,000,000
KKx10: 1,800,000,000
KKx20: 3,600,000,000

At KKx10 he is equal to a Cell Junior/Vegeta/Trunks and at KKx20 he beats SSJ Gohan [CG] with ease.

-Kamiccolo: 360,000,000
KKx10: 3,600,000,000
KKx20: 7,200,000,000

At KKx20 he kills Perfect Cell with ease and is equal to Super Perfect Cell.

-Cell Games: 1,400,000,000
KKx10: 14,000,000,000
KKx20: 24,000,000,000

At KKx10 he kills any SSJ2 and SSJ Gotenks. At KKx20 he his equal to Fat Buu/Mister Buu.

-End of Z (This entirely depends on Super): 3,000,000,000
KKx10: 30,000,000,000
KKx20: 60,000,000,000

At KKX10 he is a hair below Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku. At KKx20 he is equal to Super Buu.

[ahill1]

Lets say Piccolo learned kaioken after training with Kaiou-sama.Where would you him put at these versions of him with kaioken x10 and x20?
-Pre Nail Fusion
-Post Nail Fusion
-Android Saga
-Kamiccolo
-Cell Games
-End of Z

Pre Nail Fusion

Piccolo 300,000
~Kaioken x10 3,000,000 ( He's equal to Vegeta ( Final Zenkai ) )
~Kaioken x20 6,000,000 ( He's considerably stronger than Goku base namek )

Post Nail Fusion

Piccolo 1,500,000
~Kaioken x10 15,000,000 ( He's equal to Goku kaioken x3 ( namek vs Freeza )
~Kaioken x20 30,000,000 ( He's equal to Goku kaioken x6 ( namek vs Freeza )

Android Saga

Piccolo 800,000,000
~Kaioken x10 8,000,000,000 ( He's equal to Semi Perfect Cell )
~Kaioken x20 16,000,000,000 ( He's stronger than Vegeta SSJ Dai Ni Dankai but weaker than warm up Perfect Cell )

Kamiccolo

Kamiccolo 1,600,000,000
~Kaioken x10 16,000,000,000 ( The same as above )
~Kaioken x20 32,000,000,000 ( Between warm up Perfect Cell and Goku SSJ ( 50% ) )

Cell Games

Kamiccolo 42,000,000,000
~Kaioken x10 420,000,000,000 ( 2x stronger than Cell Games Gohan SSJ2 )
~Kaioken x20 840,000,000,000 ( almost as strong as Goku SSJ3 )

[Lord Beerus]

Goku SSJ ( Cell Games ): 2,400,000,000

Cell ( Vs Goku ): 2,750,000,000

Cell ( Real Speed, vs Gohan ): 2,750,000,000

Gohan SSJ ( Buu Saga ): 3,100,000,000

Dabura: 5,500,000,000

Gohan SSJ ( Cell Games ): 3,000,000,000

Say what?!

Even though Dabra was struggling against a watered down SSJ Teen Gohan?

Dabura fought a SSJ2 Gohan, as stated by Daizenshuu 7.

I don't remember Daizenshuu 7 stating that. Besides, there was no lighting with the aura that Gohan portrayed when he battle Dabra, and the diferences between then SSJ and SSJ2 aura are quite distinct.

Spoiler:

So he wasn't a SSJ2 when he fought Dabra.

[ZombieVito]

Say what?!

Even though Dabra was struggling against a watered down SSJ Teen Gohan?

Dabura fought a SSJ2 Gohan, as stated by Daizenshuu 7.

I don't remember Daizenshuu 7 stating that. Besides, there was no lighting with the aura that Gohan portrayed when he battle Dabra, and the diferences between then SSJ and SSJ2 aura are quite distinct.

Spoiler:

So he wasn't a SSJ2 when he fought Dabra.

A fairly even battle unfolded between him and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Afterwards, he sensed that the revived Majin Buu was dangerous, and tried to defeat him, but was turned into a cookie and eaten. Despite being the strongest in the Demon Realm, feared even by Kaioshin, he came to an extremely pathetic end...

I really don't care about the art. Story wise SSJ2 makes sense, SSJ doesn't.

[Darkron2151]

-Pre Nail Fusion: 120,000
KKx10: 1,200,000
KKx20: 12,000,000

At KKx10 he is equal to 2nd form Freeza and in KKx20 he is equal to Freeza's 10% full power.

Not exactly "x20" there.

[ZombieVito]

Oh wow.

I need to stop posting so late.

[miguelnuva1]

I really don't care about the art. Story wise SSJ2 makes sense, SSJ doesn't.

Daiz 2 and Manga art and the colorized manga say ssj1. Story wise it doesn't make any more sense to fight in SSJ1 or SSJ2. Gohan according to Daiz 2 lost his rage not his power and his fighting skills were very rusty. Goku says Dabra is around Cell. If we take a Dabra that is around the Cell Goku fought and put him against Gohan who lost no power but forgot how to fight and we get exact the scenario that played out in the manga.

[Lord Beerus]

A fairly even battle unfolded between him and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Afterwards, he sensed that the revived Majin Buu was dangerous, and tried to defeat him, but was turned into a cookie and eaten. Despite being the strongest in the Demon Realm, feared even by Kaioshin, he came to an extremely pathetic end...

I really don't care about the art. Story wise SSJ2 makes sense, SSJ doesn't.

But then Daizenshuu 2 implies that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 against Dabra:

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

Then you take into context what was stated in the manga:

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

[Doctor.]

But then Daizenshuu 2 implies that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 against Dabra:

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

It doesn't imply such a thing. If anything, in conjunction with the quote from Daizenshuu 7, it implies kid Gohan had a rage boost against Cell as a SS2. Which makes sense, considering Cell said he gained a power-up just like Gohan's.

[ZombieVito]

But then Daizenshuu 2 implies that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 against Dabra:

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

It doesn't imply such a thing. If anything, in conjunction with the quote from Daizenshuu 7, it implies kid Gohan had a rage boost against Cell as a SS2. Which makes sense, considering Cell said he gained a power-up just like Gohan's.

Bingo.

Gohan can transform into a SSJ2 very easily but apparently (If we go by art) didn't want to do it against Dabura because.... reasons. Despite the fate of his two closest friends depending on him defeating Dabura. It's nonsense.

So no sorry, I'll stick with D7 on this matter.

[Hugo Boss]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like SS2 should be the embodiement of Gohan's power of rage. It's inconsistent Gohan going SS2 so easily at the Budokai's ring when he is supposed to never have praticed the form after fighting Cell. Not using SS2 against Dabra and Boo makes more sense in comparison, since the power Boo's sphere gained from him (took directly from his body by Yam and Spopovich and during his fight with Dabra) was less significant than SS2 Goku's mere damage energy.

[Kaboom]

I usually just chalk it up to Gohan having never practiced with Super Saiyan 2, and thus not being able to *pop* into it at will like Goku and Vegeta can. He needs some time and effort. Kibito allowed Gohan that luxury at the tournament, but Dabra wouldn't have. Plus, there's reason to believe Dabra was weaker than Gohan, so Gohan very well may not have thought he'd need Super Saiyan 2 until it was too late. Anger would be a good shortcut, but we're told he's having difficulty with that too.

There's still one or two small problems with that angle, but no more or less than any other. There's just no trumping the artwork in my book. You may as well try to tell me that Vegeta used Super Saiyan to beat Pui-Pui and was just circumstantially drawn differently from every other instance of Super Saiyan ever.